Condé Nast CEO Roger Lynch on AI, the Met Gala & his secret succession plan

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I'm out this week, but stay tuned for some very special decoder episodes we have coming up soon, starting on Monday. In the meantime, I wanted to share this conversation between my friend Peter Kafka and Condé Nast CEO Roger Lynch on Peter's podcast, Channels. Lynch has been outspoken about traffic from Google Search declining every single year. He said he's now told teams at Condé Nast to assume that Google traffic will be zero from now on. That's what I've been calling Google zero for several years now. And you might recall that I just asked Google CEO Sundar Pichai about Lynch's comments during our recent interview. Sundar has always disagreed with me that Google zero is real, but I thought you all might be interested to hear Peter and Roger talk about it directly. You'll also hear Roger talk about AI, the growing influence of the creator economy, and more in this excellent conversation. Okay, here's Peter Kafka interviewing Condé Nast CEO Roger Lynch on Channels. Enjoy. From the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Channels with Peter Kafka. That is me. I'm also chief correspondent at Business Insider. And today we are talking about running the last remaining magazine empire with Condé Nast CEO Roger Lynch. Except I just looked at the transcript of this chat and Lynch only used the word magazine once. These days he thinks of Condé, which for decades was the world's most prestigious magazine publisher, probably still is, as a portfolio brand that shows up all kinds of places on the web, obviously, on TikTok, in the movie theaters, and at the mega glamorous Met Ball. So in this conversation, we skipped the question I normally ask magazine people, which is something like, hey, what the hell is a magazine in 2026 anyways? And we move on to other topics, like what's it like to be the subject of one of the most popular movies in the world? What's it like to run a media business if Google stops sending you traffic? And who's going to replace Anna Wintour and David Remnick, perhaps the two most influential editors in the world? And where is that short list? Spoiler, Lynch does not tell me where the list is, but you're going to like this interview anyway. Here's me talking to Condé Nast's Roger Lynch. Roger Lynch, welcome to Channels. Thank you, Peter. Good to see you. You are talking to me from LA. Very show-busy of you. Speaking of showbiz, you guys just finished the Met Gala. I think it's an enormously successful project for you. It is, yes. It's showbiz. It is commerce. It's philanthropy. It's a ton of celebrity, some controversy. It also seems like the most sort of obvious expression of Condé Nast as a company today. Is that a fair summation? I think it's right, and I think it also showcases what we do best, which is create cultural moments. So, you know, events has been a strategy for us, as it is for many media companies. But for us, our events are really around creating cultural moments that really break through the zeitgeist and search algorithms or whatever's happening in sort of the, you know, the headwinds of the media industry. Nothing holds back big cultural moments like the Met Gala. How do you measure success for a big cultural moment? At some point, you're a business, so you're trying to make money from it. You're also raising money for the Met, but it's a big dollars and cents event for you as well. Is that the most important thing? Is the reception it gets online most important? How do you measure it? Look, you know, for that event in particular, it's different for each event. For that event in particular, it starts with the Met, right? That is a fundraiser, and this year was immensely successful for the Costume Institute and the Met, and also the inauguration of the Condé Nast galleries that we did the ribbon cutting for the morning of the Met Gala. From an audience standpoint, every year, it surpasses our goals. And we finish the Met, and we go, how could we ever do anything like that? And then it grows another 50% or 60% the following year. So, you know, last year, I don't know, we had a little over 2 billion total video views of the content we produced around the Met. This year, it was 3.1 billion, another 50-something percent increase year over year. Does that tell you you're getting better at making the content or is there an, is this audience getting bigger for this stuff? You know, I think that in the earlier years for me, when I joined, I think we had a lot of room to improve in the content that we created around the event itself. The event itself was spectacular, but how Condé Nast covered it and created content around it, there was opportunity for improvement on that. And I think, you know, we have done a, I think the team has done a fantastic job really increasing the quality and the creativity of the output around it. I think then what compounds on that is that the intrigue around this event just seems to grow every year. And yes, you mentioned this year there's some controversy. That's fine. That's actually good. Let's spell out the controversy. It's Jeff Bezos and his wife, Lauren Sanchez, were sponsors and curators of the event. This event's always been tied to extreme wealth. You've always had benefactors working with you on this project. Were you surprised at the blowback controversy you got from the Bezos' involvement? Well, I mean, to be clear, their involvement was in support of the Met, the museum, and the Costume Institute. And the money that they gave went to the museum. So, look, I think there's a lot of reasons you can criticize extreme wealth and, you know, people will criticize what they, but to actually criticize them for donating money to a cultural institution, to me, was a bit off base. But were you surprised when you, because you're, this is going to be a regular feature going forward, as long as you're working on this, you're going to have people like the Bezos' who want to be involved and they're going to pony up a lot of money. Will that give you any pause? Like, oh, do I want to deal with this? Or are you okay saying, yeah, these things come with attendant controversy and that's okay? That's okay. Well put. Let's zoom out a little bit and just talk about Condé as a business. You came in in 2019 as a privately held magazine publisher in 2019. The future for privately held magazine companies didn't look great. What's the best way to sum up what you have done during your tenure there? Well, I had the distinct advantage of not knowing anything about the business and not having grown up in the publishing industry. So it enabled me to come in and question everything. And the first thing I questioned was how we were structured. We were structured, you know, first as two separate companies. There was an international business with its own CEO and a U.S. business. And they really acted like competitors in every way possible, including the editors competing with each other. There was so much internal competition. We had no time to focus on external. Even every country around the world where we operate, we're a very global company, operated completely independently from each other. And you know what? That, I think, was probably a good strategy for many, many decades. It made Condé Nast into a very large, successful global publisher. A whole series of fiefdoms. And people were proud of the fiefdom nature. They were. They were very, very protective. But, you know, when I came in and looked at it, it's like, okay, I can understand why in a print magazine business why that was a successful strategy. But the world has changed. The opportunity for us going forward is really about connecting with audiences in new and different ways using print subscription newsstands as a declining business. It's a small minority of our revenue today because all of these other revenue areas have been growing, and they grow every year. And so now they've surpassed the decline in the traditional business, and they're only going to continue to grow. So our revenue will continue to grow because these new streams like digital subscriptions and commerce and events and all of that are growing at double-digit rates. And if we go back to 2019, does this look like the company you imagined you were taking over and we're going to transform? Is this where you thought you'd end up? You know, I knew that we had some big challenges, and frankly, that's what attracted me to this. I like really big challenges. I like transformation. I like connecting the dots and strategies and then going executing against it. The thing I knew is that there was going to be a big, messy transformation just in terms of the structure of the company and that those changes were going to be cultural as much as they were organizational and that we were going to need to do a lot of innovation around creating new businesses and revenue streams. But what gave me hope that we had that opportunity was the strength of our brands. And so the number one thing for me when I was considering whether to take this job was to try to understand, were our brands becoming more connected with audiences or less? And so I asked for a lot of data on that. I wanted to see, principally, around digital platforms. And what I really quickly realized is they're definitely becoming more connected with audiences. We're growing audiences. And therefore, okay, what we have is really a business model problem that is very solvable. Wait, wait, wait. It is because the traditional line, as you know, for every company going through analog to digital is you're trading your analog dollars for digital dimes, pennies, whatever it is. And so it's a business problem that has really bedeviled just about every media company. That's true. But Peter, when I joined, it's been widely reported that the company was losing money and not a small amount of money. And today, we're profitable. And when I joined, we were majority print revenue. And today, we're majority digital. Right. What I'm saying is, when you said this is a solvable business problem, now you can point back and say, yeah, we solved it. But in 2019, you had that same level of confidence that we're going to figure this out where most people have not? Yes. Yeah, I did. I knew it would be tough, but I knew we'd figure it out. Yeah. I mean, most of your peers don't really exist anymore. It used to be Condé Nast and Time Inc. And Time Inc. doesn't exist. It's been chopped up and renamed a bunch of places. A lot of the, most, I think, of all the digital brands that we're going to challenge, the Condé Nasts of the world, I just wrote about basically the end of BuzzFeed yesterday. Vice has gone bankrupt. Vox Media, who makes this podcast, is splitting itself up as we talk. So I guess what I'm saying is, you did a good job if you can sit here and say, yeah, it has. We have grown revenue. We've grown profitability while other folks have been falling down. Not really a question, I guess. I guess that's a compliment. I'll just say thank you. You're welcome. We'll be right back with Condé Nast's Roger Lynch, but first a word from a sponsor. Support for the show comes from ServiceNow. AI was supposed to handle the parts of the job you hate. Instead, it just describes them, suggests what to do about them, and then leaves you to do it. That's not help. That's homework. ServiceNow's AI specialists are different. They're not a tool. 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If that's your dilemma, Granola can help solve it. Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. You can take rough notes like you normally would while Granola securely transcribes the meeting. Then after you wrap, it turns everything into clean, structured, actually useful notes. Granola also works through your device's audio, which means it integrates seamlessly into the video conferencing tools you already use. It's your standard meeting setup, but enhanced. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just head to granola.ai slash decoder. That's granola.ai slash decoder to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai slash decoder. And we're back. You mentioned cultural stuff inside the company. I was going back and listening to our 2021 conversation in the pandemic, sort of post-George Floyd reckoning. And this was a period where a lot of companies, in particular media companies, found their staff very upset with management. And you guys had had to let go of a Teen Vogue editor that you'd hired because the staff didn't want to work with her because of her bad tweets. When you look back at that time, the sort of pandemic 2020, 2022 era, do you feel like at any point you sort of overcorrected to accommodate staff? It seems now that the cultural pendulum has swung a lot and a lot of the stuff that people were complaining about in 2020, 2021 aren't things they would at least voice publicly now. And I'm wondering if you look back on that era and go, maybe I overdid it. Well, it really hit us in 2020, and it started right around the time when George Floyd was murdered. And I knew when I joined that we had a lot of cultural issues to deal with. And, you know, one of the first things that I did, again, because we had all these separate businesses around the world, there was no one company. There was no one even executive team. I wanted to try to find some things that I could get this newly, what was about to be combined company focused on, some global initiatives. And it can't be like, we're going to be profitable. We're going to, like, that's not inspiring. But what I found talking to our employees was they were really interested in a couple areas. One, what are we doing on diversity? And two, what about sustainability? So I thought, great, these are really two really important issues for us to work on. And what we can do is, even in advance of changing all the org structures or the, you know, how we do our editorial, I can create teams from around the world of employees who are really vested in this to help advise the company and help drive forward progress in these areas. So that work resulted in a diversity report and goals that we set in 2020. And so we were, by the time this hit us, we were already had a lot of work underway. And, but it was, it was work that we needed because I think the company, you Limited audience that he'll reach on his own. As also working with us at Condé Nast or at Vanity Fair, gives him access to a much broader reach audience than he would be able to develop just on his own. So to me, it's a pretty good model to have where you can have somebody as talented as he is and connected as he is, building his own business, but at the same time, collaborating with us in a way that works for both parties. And what about the retention idea that, you know, let's say you've got a Lachlan Cartwright on Vanity Fair and he goes, oh, wait, I could be making 3x what I make if I go up and do my own Substack and podcast, et cetera. How do you convince them to stick around? Or do you say, go off and do your own thing, but we're going to make some arrangement with you? Look, we haven't had a lot of that happen, but you know, I think that, you know, the unfortunate case with Substack is there aren't that many that really can make a good living doing it. And I think those that do find that also it is hard work. It is, you are constantly having to produce. You are constantly having to think about how you grow your business. And for some people that's exhilarating and can be very successful. And some, it's exhausting. And so I think there's a limit as to how many people will be able to do that in a way that really supports, you know, their lifestyle. Yeah, there's many more than I thought there were going to be 5, 6 years ago, but it's still a limited universe. I think it is. But again, that doesn't mean there's not an opportunity for them to do that and to work with us in certain ways. We'll be right back, but first a word from a sponsor. Support for the show comes from Rippling. 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And it seems like in all these cases, the platforms have something to offer you and there's a lot of risk of being dependent on the platforms. You know, the first thing is, start with our audiences. And I've always been a believer in, you have to observe what your audience or your customers are doing and try to craft your business model around that. And audiences are on these platforms. And so it's very important for our brands to be where our audiences expect them to be. I think TikTok was a great example of that. When TikTok launched in the U.S., we saw a growth of Vogue on TikTok, but not by us. People were producing content under the Vogue name, putting it on TikTok. That was a really strong indication that audiences expected Vogue to be on there. And so we jumped in in a big way. There was no revenue. There was no revenue model that we had for this, but it was important, I felt, for us to be there because our audiences expected us to be there. And we'd figure out, you know, that's been the history of the internet. It starts with engagement and then monetization figures itself out later. And that's what's happened with us in TikTok because now we have ways to sell ads around our content and it's become a good business for us. So it starts with, where do our audiences expect our brands to be? Let's make sure we're there. Now, your specific questions around AI, I think that... Well, wait, before we get to AI, though, right? Because it's one thing to say, I want to be on TikTok, or in the old days, it's important for me to be on Facebook or pick your place. And it makes sense. There's a difference between that and saying, I'm going to do a commercial deal where, you know, either I'm going to make stuff for the platform and they're going to reward me with traffic, or we don't have a commercial deal, but also they're using all my content and not sending me any traffic. I'm wondering how you think through all that. Because you do have to be there, but you can also end up just sort of building a business for someone else and getting very little in the way back. Always a risk. So, as I mentioned, it starts with the audience. In terms of these platforms, I don't believe that any of these platforms owe us an obligation to send us traffic or customers or audience. I also don't believe that they have the right to use our content to come and compete directly with us. So, you know, if Google wants to change its search algorithms and stop sending traffic to publishers, as we've all seen, you know, the amount of traffic that comes to publishers from search has declined precipitously. That's fine. They can have their business reasons around it. It doesn't give them the right to use our content to then come and compete with us for those audiences. That's the rub there. And so for AI, the risk is these AI companies use the content that our journalists create and use it to compete with our core business model. Now, if they want to negotiate with us and enter into a license agreement like OpenAI has done or Amazon or Microsoft or Perplexity, fine. Then we can come to terms on how that will work. Those that don't do that, or worse, and frankly, in the case of Google, they tie their scraping of AI content to their search scraping. So Google's been found to be dominant in search. They don't let you opt out of scraping your content for AI unless you scrape opt out for search, which is very difficult for a publisher to do. I think that's anti-competitive. I think it's wrong that they do that. But look, these companies are also our partners. So we can have disagreements in some area of our business and strong alignment in other areas. Again, with Google, we're one of the largest publishers on YouTube. We have a very, very good, strong relationship with YouTube, and it's really core to our business and really important for them, too. And you said Google search is basically going to go to zero or something close to that for you or be, you know, basically stop showing up as referral traffic sooner than later because of the AI summaries they're doing. Google Discover is this hugely important product for publishers that I think most regular people don't know about. That isn't often as big a deal or bigger than Google search. Are you still working to get your stuff showing up on Google Discover? We do get traffic from Google Discover, but it is very different traffic than search. Search is intent-driven traffic. Google Discover traffic doesn't convert for subscription, doesn't convert for commerce. You may be able to sell a few ads around it, but it is far less important. And spell out why it's less important. Because if somebody goes to Google and types, you know, Vogue shopping recommendations, there is real clear intent with what they're looking for. If they're going to Google to search for something and they see an article promoted that catches their eye and they click on it, it's much For brands that don't have the authority that our top brands have. I don't worry about AI putting Vogue or The New Yorker out of business. It just will never replicate what those brands and what the editorial teams can do with those. If you have, and you mentioned some of the companies that have sort of gone by the wayside, look, I think they were the darlings of these platforms when they were sending them all the traffic and they did a really effective job of arbi, you know, arbitrage and taking intent-driven, you know, searches or video or whatever and turning it into, you know, commerce transactions or ads or things like that. But they were entirely reliant on that traffic continuing. And when that traffic went away, what they didn't have was brands that had the level of authority that, frankly, our brands have. And so... This is what every publisher tells me is how they're going to survive this is, our brands are meaningful. People have relationships with our brand. We're going to create even more direct relationships with our brand. People will come to us because our thing is special. Let's stipulate that, you said, I think, seven of your brands make 85% of your revenue. So seven of your brands all fit in that category. Let's... How many other publishers do you think are going to make it through this era? How many publishers do you think realistically have brands that resonate with enough people that they can stay afloat on their own without being disaggregated by AI? Well, first of all, I wouldn't want to give the impression that it's only very big brands that can be successful. Because we have some very small brands, like Pitchfork. You know, it's less than 1% of our revenue. You folded it into GQ. But it has a high... We put it under GQ, but it has a separate editorial team and operates, you know, under its own brand and has been very successful. It actually has one of the largest direct audiences and now has a subscription product, which is doing very, very well. Like, that's a brand that will do well in this era because it has authority. It is more niche in its content area. It's never going to be as big as Vogue, but it has a point of view and it has a loyal dedicated audience. So it's not just big brand, small brand. It really is, does your brand have authority? Does it have connection with audience that is really deeper than search or discover traffic? Another way of putting my question, what percent of publishers, existing publishers, do you think survive this era? Well, I mean, we've already seen a lot of that damage done today. So, you know, of the publishers that are left, you know, it's a higher percentage that will survive than it was five years ago. But certainly they're not going to all survive. I think that writing is on the wall, or at least not in the form that they are today. Speaking of the future, one day Anna Wintour and David Remnick will no longer work for you. They're not young people. They're very good at what they do. And your company seems, I don't know, dependent on them, leans on their authority in a really meaningful way at The New Yorker and then broadly for Anna Wintour. What is the plan when they leave? How are you thinking about who's going to fill those shoes? Well, you know, first of all, for people that are in this field, those are the pinnacle jobs. They really are. And you're talking about two of the most successful editors ever. So it will be very, very difficult to find people who could ever replace them. But guess what? I'm sure the same was said about Grace Mirabello when she ran Vogue for several decades before Anna came in, or Tina Brown, or William Shaw, or any of the great editors that have been attached to these brands over many, many, many decades. Have either of them said, this is who I want to replace me? Just don't tell anyone yet. No, no. I mean, it's very funny because one of the things I also implemented when I joined was succession planning. It was very clear that this had never been done before at Condé Nast, and it caused people to be very uncomfortable to start talking about who could ever possibly replace them. But we always look to have a broad selection of potential people who could fulfill a role. But you never know whether they're going to be available or what the situation is. So, you know, and we also work to bring in talent specifically with the idea of succession. So it's something that we run a really disciplined process every single year. We report it to my board. We spend time going through. We have our editors. Wait, so what does that look like? So you run through a process of, if David Remnick got hit by a bus today, here's who would replace him? Look, the standard process for every company I've run is you have an emergency successor identified. You have a list of people who could be ready, you know, now or in the next year or two. You have a list that could be three to five years and a list that could be five plus years. So these lists exist. The files exist. They're on your desk, as Pam Botte would say. They're not on my desk. They are locked away. And you revise them periodically. We revise them every year. We go through a formal process where we evaluate it every year and some names are added and some names drop off. And do Anna and David participate in this process? They do. Okay. All right. Let's find the less people. Condé Nast, Condé Nast will send me your stuff. Good luck with that one. Last question for you. The biggest movie in America, I think, or biggest movie in the world, I think, is Devil Wears Prada 2. It's about Condé Nast. They don't call it Condé Nast. They don't call it Vogue. It's about your company. It's owned by Disney. Do you participate financially? I know you guys did a lot of marketing for it. You had Anna and Meryl on the cover of Vogue. Do you participate financially in that movie's success? No. That movie is their movie. It's not our movie. And we have no direct participation in it, but we certainly have a lot of fun with it. And I think Anna and Meryl going on the cover of Vogue, and as you may have seen, Chloe, our editor of American Vogue, had to work hard to convince Anna to do that because that is not who she is, was fabulous. And that cover of Vogue with the two of them was, like, iconic. But what I would say is, that movie has generated a lot of interest, not just about Vogue, but about Condé Nast. So it's been good for our business. It's certainly been good for our business. I know for a while, every publisher, and we talked about this, said, Hey, we make all this amazing, we make great stories, et cetera, that these things are often turned into movies and television shows. We've really got to lean into that and figure out ways to get these things made, either by ourselves or with partners. And for a while, during the streaming boom, the streamers were buying literally anything you guys could make. That does not happen anymore. How have you rethought the business of getting into Hollywood and television and streaming? Well, you know, that business has shrunk as an industry. The number of new shows and films being produced has shrunk, and the time it takes to get something approved has shrunk. But for us, you know, we had seven shows and movies premiere last year. We sold 11 new ones. So our team, it's a very small team, but our team does, I think, a really good job punching above their weight with that. But, you know, it starts with, you know, all of that starts with the IP of our journalism and our content. What's more important for you to figure that out or to figure out, like, TikTok and short video that more people are consuming more often? Well, short form video is a much bigger part of our business than film and television. So that, you know, in terms of revenue, certainly short form video is very important for us. Roger Lynch, you've been there since 2019. How much longer do you have? When does your succession plan kick in? You know, it's, I always tell people, I've started a number of companies, like most of the companies I've run are companies I've started. And even companies I've started, I've gotten bored after maybe four or five years. And I know when I get that feeling, like, okay, I'm starting to get bored. Time for me to do something. I never get bored in this job. Honestly, it's, there's, first of all, always really challenging problems to solve. And also the most interesting intellectual people to deal with. So I have no plans on leaving. I really enjoy it and I'm definitely not bored. As a bonus, you get to talk to people like me. Roger Lynch, thank you for your time. Thanks, Peter. Thanks again to Roger Lynch. Thanks again to Charlotte Silver who produces and edits the show. Thanks to our advertisers who bring it to you for free. Thanks to you guys for listening. More media bosses coming your way soon. See you then.