The Story
This episode feels like Ira Glass opening a family album and discovering that the real keepsake isn’t the old recordings themselves, but the relationship they quietly repaired. He begins by admitting that in his thirties, things with his parents were strained and distant. They disapproved of his career in public radio, worried about money, and still carried hurt from earlier years when he had judged some of their choices. Nobody was openly at war, but there was a coldness to it, long stretches without talking, a sense that affection and approval were always a little out of reach.
Then This American Life begins, and almost accidentally, the show becomes a bridge. Ira starts inviting his parents on the air, and something changes. His mother, Shirley, turns out to be funny, theatrical, and very ready for a microphone. In the first excerpt, what starts as a light interview about mothers and adult children reveals the family’s tensions indirectly: parental disappointment, unmet expectations, the old anxiety about whether Ira’s life adds up to success. But because it’s happening on the radio, the conversation stays playful. Beneath the jokes, though, you can hear a new kind of closeness forming.
The section about his father, Barry, deepens that feeling. Ira plays ancient tapes of his dad as a young radio announcer, full of corny ads and professional polish. Suddenly the parental disapproval of Ira’s career gets reframed: his father had once wanted radio, too, and gave it up for practical reasons. What seemed like judgment was also regret, fear, and biography. Later, Ira gives him a chance to co-host a Father’s Day episode, and you can feel how meaningful that is, not just as a novelty, but as recognition. Even more affecting is Ira’s memory of an off-tape conversation in which he finally told his father how hard parts of childhood had been. His father simply listened, apologized, and said he had been trying his best. Ira describes that brief exchange as resolving years of emotional tension almost instantly.
The episode ends with his mother again, in a conversation that still makes him squirm because it wanders into her role as a sex therapist and edges into territory only a mother can make unbearable. But even there, what comes through is warmth. They tease each other, spar lightly, and sound at ease in a way they once never were. Looking back, Ira realizes that these radio appearances let them rehearse being kind to one another in public, until that performance became real life.
Main Themes
What the episode keeps circling is the strange power of shared work to heal a family. Ira doesn’t sit down with his parents for a grand reconciliation. Instead, he gives them a role in something that matters deeply to him, and through that participation they begin to understand him differently. The radio show becomes less a stage than a safe structure, a place where everyone can be present without falling into the old patterns.
There’s also a moving contrast between performance and sincerity. So much of what happens is technically “for the air,” but the show argues that performance doesn’t make emotion fake. In fact, the public format seems to make honesty easier. The microphone gives them rules, rhythm, and a little distance, which lets affection surface where direct confrontation once failed.
And underneath everything is the idea that parents remain powerful long after childhood. Ira is startled by how vividly his mother’s voice can still provoke embarrassment and tenderness decades later. But he’s equally struck by how little it can take to repair something old: one invitation, one shared joke, one apology that lands. The episode is really about that lucky, fragile transformation—how people who never quite knew how to love each other in private sometimes find their way there by speaking into a microphone.
Full Transcript
This is American Life. I'm Ira Glass. So when I was 36 years old, the year I started this American Life, my relationship with my parents was not the greatest. I've been working at NPR since I was 19, and they were not into it at all. Like they were not into public radio. They were not into me working in public radio. They saw public radio as this like sad little backwater when they would listen to all things considered in Morning Edition, which were shows I was working at. I remember they would complain like, why are the stories so long? They especially did not like that. I wasn't making much money. I did not make much money. They were both people raised in families where there was never any money and they really organized their lives to get themselves firmly into the middle class. And they really did not understand why I didn't want to make money. And then also there had been a period in my early twenties when I was kind of judgy about certain choices that they were making and I hurt their feelings. And by my thirties, I tried to make amends and fix that, but it still wasn't quite right between us. And really I felt pretty distant from them. They did not hide the fact that they disapproved of pretty much all my life choices and I didn't feel a lot of patience for that disapproval. And I didn't have like a combative relationship with them, but it was just distant. I would go a month or two all the time without talking to them. And, you know, they were busy people, but I am sure this hurt their feelings. We talked about it later in our lives. And then I started the radio show. I have to say the single most surprising thing that happened in my life because of the radio show is that it fundamentally changed things between me and my parents. It healed things in a way I had not suspected could ever happen. And uh what I'm gonna do today is I'm gonna play you four of those conversations that I had on the air with my parents. I'm gonna talk about that change. A lot of the change happened, I think, because I was just including them in this big project I was doing. I would have them on the show and they were part of this project that meant so much to me. They were on the show five times in the first year that we were on the air. Really, it wasn't even the first year. It was just like the first eight months. And we just got into a rhythm of that and they really liked it. They liked the attention from me. They liked being on the air. They each, but especially my mom, had a kind of performy, hammy side. I'll play you some of these. I think you'll be able to hear that. And I never asked him about this, but I think they also liked what a kind of like public sort of affirmation it was of them as parents. Like, oh, see, we're a nice family. Like, see, they were good parents. And it really did change things between us. Like, my parents are both dead now and it still kind of floors me as this lucky thing in my life that I just stumbled into. And so what I'm going to do today is play some of their appearances on the radio show and maybe jump in just a little here and there to point out things that I am noticing. And there's one that I'm going to play at the end. This is a conversation with my mom that still honestly, it makes my skin crawl today the way it did the day we recorded it. This whole episode today, the way this came about is that about a year ago, we started doing these bonus episodes that we put out in our podcast feed. And so I'm constantly trying to think of behind the scenes stuff to share with listeners in these bonus episodes. And that led me back to re-listen to these old interviews with my parents. And then a couple weeks ago, I put these four interviews into a bonus episode and honestly, it came out so nicely that we thought, like, we should put this out as an actual regular episode of our show, one that anybody could hear. And so that's what you're hearing right now. And where I want to start things, this first excerpt, is from an episode that we did called Adult Children. This is the fourth time I had one of my parents on the radio show. This is May 1996, which means that my mom in this recording is younger than I am right now. She is 60 years old in this recording. And I picked this one to begin because it's one that directly addresses the actual tensions between my parents and their three children. Though, as you'll hear, it addresses them in kind of a light way that does not get too deep or heavy. But you can also feel that there's something real under the surface, I think. Okay, so I'm going to start this with the open of that episode where I tell a story, a very brief story that kind of sets up the interview that then will happen with my mom. Here we go. Well, when I picked up the phone, it was my mom. And it had been about a month since we had spoken. And as usual, that was my fault. Anyway, she said that she had been invited to speak with a group of women at the local Hadassah, you know, the Jewish women's organization. My mom's a therapist in the Jewish suburbs outside Baltimore. And these Hadassah women have this group that meets regularly. All of them are women in their, I guess... I'm just going to jump in again here in 2026. I am reading this in such a heavy way. Hearing it now, it's like, I am really trying to milk the drama out of this. Anyway, back to 1996 me. All of them are women in their, I guess, late 40s to early 60s. And when the group first started meeting, apparently they discussed all sorts of stuff. It was wide-ranging. But as time progressed, they realized there was only one topic they all really wanted to talk about. Only one topic they all needed to talk about. And that was their relationships with their adult children. And at some point, that became the only thing the group discussed. It became its official reason for existence. They had such trauma. And they didn't know what to make of what was going on between them and their adult children. And they invited my mom to lead a discussion on how to get along with your adult children. So as her preparation, my mom's a big preparer, and she does research and looks up articles and calls experts. Anyway, as part of this preparation, she decided to call her own three adult children. By the time she called me, my mom had already called my older sister, Randy. And she asked my sister what advice she would give the group. Randy's advice was brief and to the point. Tell them to get a different leader. Adult children. Okay, so then what happens is that I explained, here's what we're doing on the show today. It's going to be an episode about adult children and their relationships with their adult parents. And then as I set up the interview with my mom, I say that I told my mom that I thought that my sister Randy had been maybe a little harsh in the way that she put things. Can I say something? I was just going to say, feel free to amend or correct. Yes, when I told your sister what you said, she said, oh, I was just kidding. I didn't mean to be mean. So I don't want her to be blasphemed. All right, now, but you're a professional psychologist. Now, don't you think often, don't you think there was a note of hostility in what she said? Oh, absolutely. Okay, there. And you and I can agree. And frankly, she's not on the phone. If my sister Randy is listening to this bonus episode, please just forgive me. I didn't mean to. Or I guess I did mean to throw you under the bus. Okay, let's keep going. So, mom, so the thing I wanted to ask you about is, okay, so you had this seminar with all these... It wasn't a seminar. It was a discussion group. The discussion group. And I was the facilitator. And how many women was it? Around 30 some. Oh, so a lot. Now, if you had to characterize in a phrase people's relationships with their children, would you describe them as being very good, somewhat okay, generally kind of yucky? I mean, how would you describe it? I would say that there were a lot of people whose dreams haven't been realized, whose expectations haven't been met. And so there's a sense of disappointment, although there were some people there who were pleased with all aspects. And then, of course, the question was, well, why are you here? To gloat? Was that the answer? To gloat and show you pictures of grandchildren? A little bit. A little bit, yeah. Okay. More to connect with the other women, I suppose. But these are the criteria for satisfaction. Do you want to hear them? Quickly. Whether their children were married. Quickly. I'm so rude to my own mother. Move it along, mom. Quickly. Whether their children were married. Yes. So that having single children was a disappointment. I'm just going to make a little checklist here. Whether their children live close by or far away. God, I'm shooting zero for two so far. Keep going. All right. Whether their children appreciated them. Okay. Whether they had grandchildren. Somebody announced that one of their children was pregnant with the first grandchild. Everybody went, ooh, and they clapped, you know. That's the epitome. Whether their children were successful in their lives. How much they liked their child's spouse and got along with them. You told me on the phone earlier Are you sure you aren't going to screw this up? You know, are you and dad still, still worried, you know, about, about me making a living in public radio? I mean, I know just for years, um, you were urging me to just get out and get basically any job in TV that I possibly could, you know, but now, you know, I've got my own show and are you guys still worried or do you feel like things are going okay? Do you want me to get into television still? Um, now that Hugh Grant is such a big star and everybody who sees you or sees your picture thinks how much you look like Hugh Grant, that sort of fires up that TV thing again in me. All right, I'm stopping the tape. This is me live. That was a tape. Only my mother could possibly believe this. Only, only a mother could pretty much believe this. Other, other adults see me and the thought that goes through their head is not Hugh Grant. The thought that goes through their head is tall Jew. I think, well, gosh, wouldn't they want this wonderful, you know, humanistic and intelligent reporter who looks like Hugh Grant? That's sort of the theme for this week. The theme for this week is, is I'm just going to come in here now in 2026. This interruption is happening right now. I have to say something else that hearing this recording reminds me of, and that is that like when I look at pictures of my mom, it's just, I just feel a sense of fondness for my mom. But when you hear somebody's voice, it's so much more powerful. Like it's so, like it just like, I feel like it's like she's alive, talking to me again. And I'm having all the feelings that I had when she was alive. Like, like, really like as this tape is playing, like beat by beat, moment by moment, I feel like I'm experiencing this conversation the same way I did 30 years ago. Like, like just, yeah, and pictures cannot do that. All right, let's move on. The theme for this week is, is um, a new beginnings. And we have several stories, people telling about uh, about various ways in which their life began anew at some point. You know, that's very interesting because I just did an interview this morning with a newspaper reporter about romance. I'm just going to stop the tape again. This is my whole life. I call my mom for an interview and it's not even her first interview of the day. Like I was, I was lucky to get, you know, to get a booking. She's a therapist and sometimes she, she, um, gets called, you know, by, by the papers and stuff. And romantic love. Sure. And um, people's expectations about relationships. And one of the things I believe is that there are a lot of people who are good at beginnings, but they're not good at middles. Which means what? It means that they like the beginning where there's all this idealization and romantic projections. And the other person can be who they, who they think they should be rather than who they are. And when they get to the middle stage. All right, I'm just going to stop the tape. All right, listen, all of you in the audience right now, let's just agree, right now, it's the very beginning of our relation, it's the very beginning of our radio relationship right now. This is our little first little radio date. And I just don't want any idealizing. No idealizing. Where there's more of a reality-based relationship, they, they kind of, um, run away from it because it's not as exciting. It's interesting that you say that because, because actually as we've approached the first show, I've realized that I am much more comfortable with the notion of um kind of everyday workaday sort of radio work and, you know, being on every week and, and um, you know, having pieces on the air. But the notion of saying, like in a really big way, okay, this is the beginning. It's the beginning and we're going to have like a big beginning and we're going to make an epic statement. Um, I feel very uncomfortable with. Which means what? That you're good, so you are good at middles. I'm better, I think, at middles than at beginnings. That's good. That's good because practically all of life is the middle. We've gotten so deep here. I never expected that it was going to get so deep. This is just, I'm just very pleased at how deep this has gotten. Now you're sitting there, you're thinking, is he making fun of me? What's happening now? Where are you? No, I'm not. I'm not actually. I'm not. I'm not. Nothing to worry about. Are we going to get a tape of this? Depending on how you sound. If we're outside the Chicago listening area. Depending on how you sound, yeah. Okay. All right. Well, that's my mom, Shirley Glass, speaking to us from Baltimore. I, I don't, I don't think she's going to get a tape. I do not think she's going to get a tape. All right, well, um, next on our, next on our little playhouse stage. I'm pretty sure I actually did send her a tape. Um, anyway, okay. So that is the first episode of our show from November 1995. Um, so my dad did come on the show also. It wasn't just my mom. And I'm going to play you some of that, including an old story about his very brief and very doomed career in radio. After a quick break. Stay with us. This American Life. Today we're doing something different than usual. I'm playing old interviews that I did on the program with my parents, uh, which really did change my relationship with them in a fundamental way. As I said earlier, uh, today's program was originally made as a bonus episode of our show. Every two weeks or so, we try to put out these bonus episodes for our This American Life partners. And uh, they're generally uh behind the scenes stuff like what you're hearing today. Anyway, so we turned out to my dad. Uh, the biggest story that I did with my dad is in an episode, again, this is very early in the show. It's episode 14. It's February 1996. It's like, what is that, four months after we started on the air. As I said, this story I'm just going to play uh straight through. So when you hear me interrupting uh tape and stuff like that, that's actually happening in the original story. That's not today. We have arrived at act two of our program. Baltimore. We'd like to ask you this question, my friend. Do personal problems and worries have you down? Are you disturbed by business problems, marriage problems, or emotional problems? See Mrs. K, reader and advisor. Mrs. K, formerly of Europe, gives you a reading and answers all your questions for just one dollar. And you'll feel much better. You'll have a much better picture of where you're headed after you've talked with Mrs. K. The telephone number is Saratoga 7-2753. But of course, no appointment is necessary. I'm just going to stop this tape right there. I have three things to say about this tape. Number one, formerly of Europe. Number two, of course, no appointment is necessary. She already knows you're coming. And number three, this is my father in 1956, three years before I was born. He's 23 years old. And coming up right now, news about a wonderful appliance from Norman R. Mitchell, just for the homemakers, as we said before. We're talking about an electric dryer. And my friend, if the lady in your house has her heart set on an electric dryer, here's some big news for you from Norman R. Mitchell. Right now, they are featuring the new 1957 Frigidaire Filtrumatic electric dryer at an unbelievable low price. My father started in radio when he was 19, the same age I was when I started. He began at the college station at the University of Maryland. And after graduation, got a job spinning records at a commercial station in Baltimore. Then he was drafted. And at the time of this particular recording, my father was actually in the Army, stationed in Virginia. But he wanted a career in radio so badly that every Sunday morning at the break of dawn, he would leave his wife and his five-month-old baby, my older sister, and drive up to Baltimore to do a four-hour program. For over 18 years, thousands of folks just like yourselves here in town have relied on Norman R. Mitchell appliances for sincerity, service, and substantial savings. Three important musts for a successful business today. My dad's paycheck for this four-hour Sunday morning program was $5.88. The most he ever made at a radio job was $90 a week. My friend, how would you like to get 21 beautiful greeting cards absolutely free? Plus details on how easy it is to earn $35 to $50 a week selling Liberty Bell greeting cards. Hey, Dad? Yeah. When you were doing radio, what did you like about it? What was the appeal of it for you? Um, it seemed easy to do. Um, certain amount of, I guess, notoriety. You know, it's good for your ego. People know who you are. You know, I was a big man on campus at the University of Maryland. You're a good announcer. I didn't really know that. I've been listening to the way that you do the announcing. You're relaxed, and yet you punch the sort of main points. But you sound completely at ease, and you're convincing. You're doing ads for the hokiest products in the world, and you sound completely like you believe it. Really? Yeah. What are some of the You know, I could just see the whole thing laying out that way. And in 1978, when I started working at NPR, my parents absolutely did not want me to do it. It wasn't even like a judgment call. They were completely against it for the next, I want to say 10 years, maybe it was 15 years, really. I mean, they simply saw it, like the way most parents would, they saw it as impractical. They worried that I would never make any decent money, never be able to support a family. Essentially, the reasons that my father quit radio. When I first dug out these tapes of my father about a year ago, I asked my dad, you know, if he ever wished he could still do radio. And he was completely unenthusiastic about the idea. In all my life, I had only seen his desire to be on the radio once. And this was actually a couple years ago. I was filling in as the guest host of Talk of the Nation, this daily call-in show NPR does out of Washington. I was doing that for half a year. And my father had never seen me host a radio show. And he and my mom drove down to Washington from Baltimore to watch me do the show. And before the show, he asked me if he could read the news. And at first I thought he was joking. And I don't remember exactly what I said back. I joked something back at him. And then later, as we got closer to going on the air, he asked again, you know, that he would like to read the news cast, the NPR news cast at the top of the hour at the beginning of the show. And I realized he was serious and I had to explain to him that I didn't have any authority over that. That, you know, the NPR newscasters, you know, they wrote their own news and they delivered it themselves. Then a few months after that, he and I were talking about what he's going to do after he retires. He still works, still works long, long hours. And he told me he's been thinking about doing a little bit of radio work again after he retires. That is, if he can find some radio station or, you know, some radio program that could use him in some way. Okay, it's me again in 2026. So not that long after that, just four months after that, I asked my dad to co-host the show with me for Father's Day. So he did get his chance to get back on the radio. This is an episode that we do rerun now and then. So I'm just going to play you a little snippet or two from this. Okay, so Dad, so you have the script? I have the script. From WBEZ Chicago, it's This American Life, the Father's Day edition. Dad, you are such a pro. I haven't done this in 40 years. It brings back all kinds of memories. Now you better explain to our radio listeners in what context you actually sat in front of a radio microphone, Dad. Well... And then my dad kind of recaps what you already heard about his radio career. I'm just going to pick up now a little later. And today for Father's Day, my co-host will be my own father, Barry Glass, certified public accountant. And it's a real kick to do this. I know, this is our little Father's Day adventure together. You could have bought me a tie. Dad, why don't you read the billboard? Our program today will have four acts. Act one, Sandra Tseng-Lo finds out that the world sees her father very differently from the way she sees him. Act two, Dad's music. We have a story from writer Sherman Alexie. Act three, the moment Dad left. Act four, reconciling with Dad, a story from playwright Bo O'Reilly. Hey, I just want to say, we did this at the beginning of all the episodes in that first year or two. We would list each act and say what the act would be. And then at some point, like I don't know how many years in anyway, I realized like, oh, we don't have to do that. Like if we do the beginning of the show right, people would just want to hear what's going to happen next and they kind of don't even care what's coming up. Like, all you just want to know is like, I guess it's going to be good today. And then like listening the acts, like he just did, like, you know, it just feels like, it doesn't mean that much, you know what I mean? Unless you're a fan of one of those people in particular. But otherwise, like, no, we don't do that very much anymore. I will say my dad really, really liked being on the air. His friends heard him. That was like a really nice thing. And it was just like acknowledging this part of his life that honestly I didn't know about when I was growing up. There's a thing that happened with me and my dad, and it happened on tape. And for the life of me, I have no idea where this recording is. And I wish I could find it. And that is when we were taping for some episode, we got into a very real conversation and tape just kept rolling. And I don't remember how we got on it, but it really was about like, was he a good dad? And he was really asking in a real way. And then I felt like I will try to meet him in this moment. And I had been in like therapy for a while. And my dad, like I will say, like was a very well-intentioned dad who really did try to do his best. But his dad left when he was four or five years old. He didn't grow up with a dad. And he just didn't know what it would be to be a dad. He really was inventing it as he went along. And he could be very, he would just get angry at random stuff in ways that I really felt like I spent my childhood kind of dodging around and trying to anticipate and trying to like read his moods. And basically I said, like there were just, I explained to him, like there were ways that he treated us that really affected the way that I treat everyone in the world today. And I went into like maybe a little more depth than I'm doing with you here right now because you are not my father. And I said, like it really, like it was hard. And I said, like I've been in therapy. I'm trying to like change the way I am with other people so I'm not so alert all the time to like how they're going to treat me and just trust people a little more. And I just kind of like laid out things in a way. And he heard this and he paused and he said, like honestly, he said, he said like the perfect thing. He paused and he said, I'm so sorry. Like that must have been so tough for you. And that must be so tough for you. And he said, like, look, I, you know, I was doing my best. Like I didn't know, I didn't have a dad. Like I didn't know how to do it. Like I really was trying. And then we never talked about it again. And we really like, like honestly, like all the drama between me and my dad for my whole childhood. Like I know this sounds like a complete exaggeration to say this is true, but I swear emotionally for me anyway, it really felt like in one conversation that was maybe eight minutes long, it was completely resolved because he did the simple thing of saying that he heard me and just said he was sorry. And, you know, he was trying, which I believe completely. And very much in contrast, and again, my mom is dead, so it feels a little weird to just like say things about her here on this show. But like, I don't know, like why, why talk about this if I'm not going to be real? My mom was much more defensive, even though she was a therapist. If my sisters and I would try to talk to her about, like, you know, you do this thing and you kind of, like, whatever it was, she just could not hear it. She really couldn't. Like, and I do think a part of that is like the mom in most families is just doing so much work to just like run everything out, whereas my dad was pretty absent and off at work that I think she was much more protective and it was really hard for her to hear that we might have criticisms. But yeah, like, and really, up until she died, like that stuff never got resolved. Whereas with my dad, it got resolved so quickly. I think about that sometimes. I'm just like, of the two of them, she was by far the more like psychologically aware. She was a therapist. But like, he just handled that moment with such grace. Let's move on. Coming up, the interview with my mom that I was talking about earlier, which has all that stuff that still makes my skin crawl when you hear it. You can judge if I am overreacting, which I may be. I don't know. You be the judge. That's in a minute on Chicago Public Radio when our program continues. This American Life, I'm Ira Glass. Today's show, Call Your Parents. I'm playing interviews that I did with my parents back when they were alive, which I find is generally the best time to do interviews with people. I don't know, call me crazy. I'm going to close out this episode with one final story. This is from an episode of our show called Double Lives. It is the 10th episode we ever made. This is January 1996. And before I play this for you, I had an experience with this story recently that I really don't think I'll forget He also said, good luck, Mr. Gorky. And for years, people have been asking him what that meant. And he would never tell them. And then this year, someone brought it up again. What did you mean when you said, good luck, Mr. Gorky? And he said, well, I can tell now because Mr. Gorky died this year. When I was a little boy, Mr. Gorky was our next door neighbor. And I was playing outside one day and their bedroom window was open. And I heard Mrs. Gorky say, oral sex? You want me to give you oral sex? You'll get oral sex from me the day that boy next door walks on the moon. Well, now I'm examining my own feelings and I have to say, I did get very nervous there in a way that does not correspond, perhaps, with shrugging my shoulders at the notion of you having some sexual life and sexual thoughts. Yeah. Okay, I'm just going to jump in here live from the year 2026 to say, like, I've just been spending like the last minute, I feel like I can feel my blood racing. Like, I just feel like my temperature is risen. And I just feel like, what is, what is happening? Like, what? What is happening? Is that wrong? Are you on my side? Can I just say also, like, she's getting this reaction out of me today in 2026. She's been dead for 20 years. Like, and still, she can get to me. I mean, I guess that's what it means to have parents. Yeah. So let me read you some of your other quotes here. In the fantasy of man dominates woman, you're quoted as saying, says Dr. Glass, quote, in a caring relationship, it's certainly not abusive or unhealthy if the fantasy is played out in a light, teasing way. You're also quoted extensively in fantasy number five, spontaneous encounter with a beautiful stranger. The key quote is this one, as far as I'm concerned. Go to a restaurant and at first pretend you don't know each other, suggests Dr. Glass. Which when I read that, it actually explains some dinners I've had with you and dad. I thought, well, you know, you didn't talk very much between the two of you. No, no, that was just the opposite. So if you actually, have you, have you, have you done this? Have you gone to a restaurant with dad and pretended that you didn't know each other? No. No. No. But if you did, you're saying that we. We've gone to restaurants with you and pretended we didn't know you. What do you mean by that? Well, when you were younger and let's say that your manner of dressing didn't exactly conform to the style. All right, all right, I think everybody. The other people in the restaurant. Back when daddy would look at you and he would start popping jelly cell. When we'd go out to eat. And I'd say, now, Barry, people are going to look at him and they're going to look at us and they're going to know that we've not picked out his clothes. So now that I know that you're the big sex expert, do you have any sex advice for me? I'll just say in 2026, Darren question. So now that I know that you're the big sex expert, do you have any sex advice for me? Find a nice girl and get married. That's not sex advice. We always end up this way, don't we? With that particular advice. Yeah, that's I know. I know. I could ask you any question and that would be the advice. Well, that was the first rule of journalism you taught me. Is what? No matter what they ask you, be sure to get your point in. You mean when you, when you were first being interviewed by people, this is what I told you to say. Right. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad you. I'm glad we got to that then. My mom, Dr. Shirley Glass in Baltimore. I'll just say, like, hear how nicely we're getting along. Like we actually, like, that's a really sweet conversation to have with your mom. And, and before these, these appearances on the radio, on the radio show, I just don't think that would have happened. Like, like, there's just something so, like, we were so in a, like a nice friendly groove, even though, like, we are kind of like making little points with each other. It's just like a very lovely thing. And, and it continued that way, more or less, until she died. And when we would see each other in real life, like not just on the radio, we were more open with each other. It was just easier. They stopped telling me I was wasting my life in radio. And I think, like, if I imagine it from their point of view, I think that after we did these things on the radio, they knew when we see each other in real life that I wasn't going to sit them down and question their choices, question them. Doing these stories on the radio, it's like we practiced getting along together nicely in public. I think that public act helped them get it into their heads that I really did accept them and that the period of my life where I questioned them so much in my twenties was really long over. So that's how the radio show changed my life. Or definitely one of the biggest ways. Fly me to the moon. Let me play among the stars. Let me see what spring is like on Jupiter and Mars. In other words, hold my hand. In other words, baby, kiss me. I think my dad would like that we got that song. If you liked this episode of our program, like I said earlier, this was originally made as a bonus episode for our life partners. We've done over 20 of these and they're all like this. They're kind of like behind the scenes sort of stuff. Life partners also get ad-free listening. They get the special greatest hits archive of the show that appears in their podcast feed. So when they want a good episode, they can just scroll through the podcast feed and go, oh, there's a greatest hit. If you're signing up yourself, you get all that. And most important, it helps us fund everything we're doing. At this point, life partners pay for a fourth of our budget. They are essential to us being able to spend the kind of time we do on all the stories we bring you. If you're a regular listener, you perhaps can tell how long some of the stories must take to make. To sign up, go to thisamericanlife.org slash life partners or you can sign up right in the Apple podcast app. Okay. So the people who helped put together today's program include Michael Cometa, Seth Linden, Molly Marcelo, Catherine Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Ruthie Petito, Anthony Roman, Ryan Brumry, Lily Sullivan, Francis Swanson, Christopher Surtala, Nancy Updike, Julie Whittaker, and Diane Wu. Our managing editor is Saurabh Dharaman. Our senior editor is David Kestenbaum. Our executive editor is Emmanuel Berry. Special thanks today to my sister, Randy Murray in San Francisco, the one other living person who gets today's program the way that I do. Thanks also to Mr. Gorky, who does not exist and who Neil Armstrong did not mention on the moon. Apparently my mom got that joke from The Tonight Show. In other breaking news, a priest, a rabbi, Adolf Hitler, and a kangaroo did not walk into a bar together. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange. Thanks, as always, to our program's co-founder, Mr. Troy Malatia. You know, he's starting a new ice cream shop. He is amazing at making ice cream, but just terrible at naming flavors. You have your choice of pink, yellow, green, or charcoal. American glass. Back next week with more stories of This American Life. Next week on the podcast of This American Life, M. Guessing comes back to our show with a true crime story that happened in their own family. She wrote, I beg you, please, to help me get my son back or to at least speak to him. Please do not tell them I have written to you. If you are unable to help me, then just ignore my message. That story, by the way, comes from Serial, the people who literally invented the true crime podcast. That's next week on the podcast or on your local public radio station.