#133: Why you should transcribe your job interviews | Dan Wolchonok (Founder @ Work Coach, ex-Reforge, HubSpot)

All right. We're live. Dan, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. I'm excited for this one. Yeah, we're, this is, uh, we're going, we're going to go deep today on a topic that's near and dear to my heart. And I, um, even though I've spent a lot of time thinking about it, I still view myself as a beginner, um, and when it comes to like how to, how to use AI in the space that Mark and I spend a lot of our time in, which is interviews, and you've been working on a product called WorkCoach, um, we got introduced through, uh, Josh Herzig-Marx, uh, friend of the podcast, also, um, very vocal member of the Supra community. And Josh was like, you guys got to talk to Dan, like I've been using his product. It's super interesting. And I think there's a lot of really, uh, like, uh, strong applications for job interviews that might be interesting for you and your audience. So we wanted to bring you on and, um, uh, we saved all the juicy stuff for the conversation itself. So let's start off with a question, which is, um, from, you know, your early customer conversations and seeing what people are doing with WorkCoach. What have you learned so far about what kind of the, um, like the savviest or smartest or most intentional people are doing with AI to get, to get better at the, um, at the interviews and their job search? Yeah, great question. I think the savviest people are being ruthless about their process. They're figuring out what their goal is. They're figuring out how they map to that goal. And then they're being maniacal about improving at every step of the process. And it's incredible to me to see the people who I think are just struggling. They don't have the time. They don't have the motivation. They aren't sure exactly what they want to do. It's just immediate. You can tell which bucket someone falls into struggling, not sure what to do versus the people who know exactly what they want to do, have a plan to go do it and are executing at a really high level. It's just incredible to me that night and day difference between the people in those two different camps. It sounds like there's almost like a couple of things going on here between the, you know, the people that are, you know, performing at the highest level and maybe people who are like, feel a bit like hopeless and lost. And some of it seems to be like an attitude or like a mindset, right? Of like, kind of like agency, like looking at every step as something that could be improved. Like, you know, just like very much controlling the process. I do have a question of like, do you think there's also an element of like some people kind of like, know what, what great looks like at every step along the way and or what needs to be done as to the way and then maybe the people that are more helpless, maybe don't really know what the map looks like. And that's maybe what they're stuck at, like, yeah, like, how much do you think it's like mindset versus maybe like knowledge gap, if that makes sense? I think I don't want to sound negative about the people who are in the bucket who aren't crushing it. I think it's really hard. I think everyone has anxiety about the future, about what's going on in tech right now. They're working like crazy. No one feels like they can keep up. So I don't think it's easy, or at least it is challenging. I don't think it's the most amount of work to do. I just think it's hard to have the confidence and to feel comfortable in kind of knowing what you want to do. And I don't always think it's like this. I think sometimes the smartest people are getting in their own way. So like, I don't think it's laziness. I think you I really do think that. Can you give an example of like how a smart person has can get in their own way? I think that's really interesting. Yeah. I mean, what's the what's the midway meme? You guys know I'm talking about the like, yeah, like 1% is like the bell curve. And like, there's like one in watch in one spectrum that's like, you know, like, you know, just practice and chill. They don't want it's like, oh, like, you know, do all this complicated shit, like, that's like super complex in the middle. And then like, at the end of the way, it's just like, you know, practice and chill kind of thing, right? Like, I mean, you can. But yeah, I think that it's the burden of knowing all the things you need to do well can be daunting. It's interesting. I was chatting with someone yesterday or a week ago. And I was asking why they weren't practicing, why they weren't doing this or that. And they said, I'm questioning, I feel like I don't know certain things. And so I'm like, doom scrolling, instead of just practicing. And so he's like, the scroll on the feed is feeding his anxiety. And he's just spiraling. And he'd be much better off just practicing his story, thinking through why he's unique for a role. And I think when you can think about all the reasons why you're not going to get something, it's going to, you know, plant a seed in your head, and it's going to start growing. And it's really hard to tune that stuff out. I mean, that's, I definitely agree. I think like, we've talked in the past, Mark, about how like, and Josh is actually a big advocate of this perspective, which is like, you know, performance in interviews is not like, it has nothing to do with how it's not correlated, it has nothing to do with how you do at the job. And I've always kind of like pushed back on him, because I think large, one of the reasons what you're just saying, Dan, I think is like, the way people show up, like the rigor that they bring to their job search and their interview prep, it's kind of hard for me to not imagine that that's how they're going to show up on the job, too. So yeah, I just wanted to say like, I agree, I think like the people that kind of feel like they're just going to waltz in to like these interviews in 2026, in this like hyper competitive market and just do well through sheer force of accident or luck, you know, they're going to get punched in the face by the market, I think probably have a have a corrective moment. But it's the interesting thing there is like, that can easily lead you to, I need to know all the stuff that's coming out, I need to be able to speak to all the stuff that's coming out. And there's new stuff every single day. And so you can easily think, I need to know, right, right, but like, it is a slippery slope to think I need to be like, because if you're a product person interviewing for a role, how do you not know about what Grok just unveiled, or the or the latest Gemini model. So I think it can seem I agree with you, you need to be able to balance. Just like if you would, if you were in a full time role, you need to keep up with what's happening in the market, and you need to do your job. It's the same thing for a job search. But it's I've seen so many people kind of lose, lose a sense of that when they're doing it all on their own. They don't have a community of people, they don't have any mentors, they're not using anything to kind of like, help be a reminder of what the most valuable way to spend your time is. Yeah, I may need to distill what's going on. I mean, I I've definitely, like, I think if we were going to distill your answer into okay, how are smart people getting on their own way? I think one of it is like, decision paralysis, almost of like, they're just like, observing, observing, observing and not doing anything with information, and they're just like, don't know what to do with it. They're like, they're just like, still, right. And I think like the saying is like, you know, an idiot in motion is much better than a genius was still right. And then the other thing that I think, and I think they're actually like, you know, in a fun way, like connected is that the other one is mindset, right? And I think a lot of times, like, I see mindset getting on the way to like, oh, like, I, you know, I blew that or like, they're telling stories in their head, or like, I just failed two rounds. And like, I just lost my jobs, like, and I need to be careful here, because I think that those are really difficult situations, all compounding next to each other. And it's, and it requires a lot of like, mental strength. And I just, it's hard for me to relate to right now, because I haven't been through it. So I just like, start with that. That's like, I have a lot of empathy for those people. And, but at the same time, I feel like when I've been in those situations, right, I almost feel like the only way to change the mindset is by like, getting, getting moving, right. And it's really hard to get moving, like when you're trying to create a plan and like, so I think like, sometimes like the first step is usually like, just taking one step and then putting the next feed next in front of the other. And I'm curious, like, kind of maybe like, what have you seen maybe to be that helpful first step when someone is like spinning and doesn't know like, and kind of how to take action or where to start or how to even just like, you know, turn the ship for their search? Yeah, yeah. I think the biggest thing that I've seen is, is people need to talk with other people. You need to network more, you need to ask people for advice. Just getting out there and chatting with other people in your community and, and letting people know, asking for favors, I think is a great way to get yourself out of whatever analysis paralysis you're in, or any rut you're in. Forcing yourself to do the uncomfortable thing, instead of just sit behind your computer, apply for jobs, or, you know, just chat with, chat GPT, like, I think you need to be intentional. And I think talking with other people is really, really helpful. And that's, that's a key thing that I've seen is that forcing yourself to get out there, forcing yourself to take any action, and be responsible to other people is a really good way to, to stay, to stay accountable. Yeah, I, I agree with that. And I think specifically, I point people towards Lenny, Lenny's podcast episode with Phil Terry, who created Never Search Alone. And I love the advice in that episode, which is basically like when you're thinking about what's next, and you're before you even start interviewing or anything, like you want to find what's, you're trying to figure out your candidate market fit, you're trying to figure out how someone shaped like you who's good at what you do, where do you fit in, like seniority wise, company size wise, like basically the people that have worked with you, the people that know you, who are somewhat, you know, plugged into the market, they say, like, you're out of your mind to think you're going to get this, you know, whatever VP product at a Series E company role, given your experience, you should be going for like, maybe like a super senior ICPM at like growth stage, Series B, Series C, or maybe you should go big tech, you have a good background, like, you can start to talk to people to your point, I'm just adding a little bit more, another resource for people if they want more really, really strong specific advice on that. And then I think, once you have a, I tell people to think of their job search in seasons. So you know, when someone's getting ready for their first season of their job search, I say, imagine a season is like three to six months long. And you're going to want to have a thesis going into the season about where you fit. And that's going to be like, I'm going to go prove my candidate market fit in the market now that I've talked to these people. And if you get, you know, 1015 at bats, you know, like you have, you can build a pipeline of 1015 companies where there's a role that looks like that role that you think you're a really good fit for and you're not getting, you know, it's you're either failing the recruiter screen or you're failing the hiring manager screen, you got to figure out where in that pipeline you're dying. If you, if you've discovered you're really bad at behavioral interviews, then you got to like put your head down and work a lot in behavioral interviews leading up to your second season of your, your job search. Ideally, you can make some mid season adjustments and, you know, work with a coach or maybe a tool like work coach and, you know, get some of that help while you're in that season. But I think it's just really hard for people. People are, in my opinion, not very good at diagnosing where they're weak in interviews until they have the data points that show them where they're weak in interviews. It's kind of like Mark, if I asked you, like, what's the shittiest part of our onboarding flow or what's the leakiest part of our signup flow before we ever launch? It's like we could talk about it all day, but like once you ship it and throw people into that pipeline, you'll, you'll just know the market will tell you where people are dropping off and what's confusing. And so that's kind of what I, I tell people is like, I agree with you get motion going, but be really like, make sure you have an aim and make sure you have a hypothesis and make sure you you're building a very intentional pipeline. And then as you get reps with the companies, you can start to debunk or validate your hypothesis, but also figure out exactly which growth areas you have. And yeah, we can talk more about what they can do regardless of that. I think knowing your own story is building your story bank. That's the kind of like universal prep that I think is going to pay off for like all these interviews. But then we're obviously biased with what we're doing with that insider loops that we believe that like knowing the company specific, you know, things are really important too. Yeah. I mean, I think that's why the Never Search Alone book is so valuable because it just kind of like almost gives you like a very like clear roadmap that it's like very sequential. It's like you first do this, then you do that. And then the next thing you'll do is this, right? And I think that is super helpful because it's like kind of like, okay, like if you're going to do just one thing, this is the next thing you should do. And I'm curious Ben, one thing that I was like coming to mind to me when you were saying, hey, like, okay, you come up with a candidate market fit and that's like maybe season number like the first or the preseason, I don't know if it's like season one or preseason, but and then you said, okay, and then you test that candidate market fit, right? Like, and it sounded like you were just saying, hey, like get into the interviews and kind of get some feedback. But I, that kind of feels high stakes, especially if you, if there's a company that you really care about. So like, is there any other good way to like kind of get signal on your candidate market fit without getting into the loop? The candidate market fit is not like a artifact that was created in your head in a vacuum. The candidate market fit statement is the outcome of a bunch of touch points between you and the market where you're talking to people and asking for advice and where they think you fit. And maybe some of them are like, hey, like I actually know someone who would, you'd be perfect. And so you talk to like 20 people and like five of them are trying to like refer you actively to a role, right? So like, it's almost like the market literally starts pulling you into roles that are shaped that they think you'd be successful at. And then of course you can control your timeline. You can say, okay, I'm not ready to start these processes. I want to give myself more time. I want to do something, but I at least know what, which direction I'm, I should be packing my car up in, you know, like where, where do I need to be? What kind of, what kind of race am I about to like train for? But before you know that, I think like if someone's like determined to be a research PM at a frontier lab, their prep for their interview is going to look very different than if they want to go be like a growth PM at a, at a, you know, a company that maybe uses AI, but like they're not a frontier lab. Like those are very different prep processes, in my opinion, at least. Yep. So many people think, oh, I don't know anyone at Anthropic. How am I going to know whether I'm a fit there? And I love what Laszlo Bloch put out, which is you don't need to have a network. You just, you need to be able to have a conversation with someone who does have a network. And that's a lot easier to like manufacture than having a, than having a ton of connections at Anthropic. And so I just, I think there's so many conversations you can have. You can send out tons of cold messages to people to test your candidate market fit. I don't know what your reply rate's going to be, but like, you don't, I just, I definitely don't think you need to apply in order to get signal on whether you have good candidate market fit. I think you can have lots of conversations with people and then see if there's some pull because if you are dynamic, if, if you come across really well, the people who have great networks are going to want to refer you to those companies. And so I think it's all about how do you, how can you manufacture some of that access if you don't have the network or just leverage your network to be able to have those conversations. I also think there's a really helpful signal when people, if you have those conversations with people and they're like, I don't know what to, how to make sense of you. I don't know where you fit in. I don't know what kind of role would be perfect for you. Like I'm rooting for you and I care about you and I'm like literally the most guy in your court right now. And I still don't understand how I can be helpful to you or what you're going for. That in itself is also extremely freaking valuable to candidates to hear from people that are rooting for them because they need a wake up call. That's like, you're not focused or you're not making sense or like, again, you're what you want. Like, I don't know, like I think that's like the reality check people need when they go into the market. You got, you got to get punched in the face multiple times through the job search and I think that's always like a really good early one is just like where people place you in their head. I'm never going to put a limit on someone. I'll be like, yo, if you want to go for this role, you're not, I don't think you're qualified for like you, you could go for it. But in this market, it's a hiring manager's market, it's a buyer's market. And if you're going to try to like reach for something that you're like not hyper qualified for, you're probably not going to have a lot of success. You might want to go for the thing you are hyper qualified for and then figure it out from there. Totally. Right. Like if someone is saying that they're very, it's unlikely they're going to say, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to leverage my network to make an introduction for you. But and so that's an area where I'm a little biased. It's like the whole point of my product is like, help you see your blind spots. Everyone has their blind spots. We don't know exactly what they are. We think we do and we don't know how they manifest. And it's so helpful to just even understand, did my self pitch land? Did I make it crisp? Was the person excited about me? And it's hard. It's so uncomfortable that I think people are a little blind to the reactions of other people, even just in a networking chat. And that's a huge, huge signal of, of how well you're selling yourself and helps you practice for future ones, but also for the gauntlet that is the, the application and hiring process. Yeah. I think the, the other thing too, that's super important. And I learned this from a mentor at Asana is that I was like trying to get like the company really excited about this initiative and this team that we're building. And we were trying to come up with like a mission and like almost like an objective for the team. And they're like, listen, like everything you're saying sounds very powerful and cute and amazing, but like you only have really, you have only done a good job if like the random engineer is sitting in that corner tomorrow, is it like with the CEO in the elevator and the CEO asks you like, Hey, what are you working on? And he literally repeats something that, that is really like powerful and connected to the mission you're doing. So like, it's basically like the ability of your team to be able to like manifest what you're working on and what you're up to and what's your mission when you're not there. And I feel like being able to tell your story is kind of like the same thing. Like you need to be able to like help others, like tell your story in a way that's very easy and clear. Like, like, like for example, I get introduced to people or I get pinged to people all the time. And you know, it really depends who is asking for the advisor. Like for example, like this, this week or last week, Ben was like, Hey, there's this guy that I know that it's like perfect for this role that you're connected to. Like, and this, this is why I'm like, okay, I trust Ben, Ben, like, like understands why this was a good role. Like the easiest connection that I will make, it's like, I feel really good about it. I feel like Ben understands what this role is, Ben understands what the other person is doing. And it's such a win-win. Like I'll, I'll make those intros 99% of the time because it's such a win-win situation. And I wouldn't have been able to do that had that person who, like that person came for me for coaching for, for like a frontier lab interview process. But in the process, like they're going for like a specific, a role within a frontier lab that requires very specific domain experience. As we're talking about this guy's background, I'm thinking, I know, I know Mark is connected to a guy who's looking for someone with this kind of background right now. And this guy wants that to stay in that space. So like he did so much of the heavy lifting for me, that's like, this guy knows exactly who he is. He knows what he wants. I don't know a lot of people that are shaped like that. So I know Mark's friend is a really baller CEO who's hiring like a product leader. Why don't I just connect one and one together? Now they're, I think they're, they're having a good, the first conversation went great. Hopefully the next series of conversations go well too, but that's, that's what I, if I can't do, and that's after one conversation with this person, I never worked with them before. Like I'm just like forming a first impression within like 20 minutes, right Mark? So if I, if I, if I, if I can't get there after like the, in the If I can't get there after like 10, 15 minutes and I don't know what this person's looking for, yeah, it's gonna be really hard for anyone to help them until they get that clarity, I agree. Yeah, it's funny. I think sometimes people are nervous about making an ask and I think they need to be reminded, it makes the other person look good if you're good. Like, it is good to be a talent router. It is good to be known as someone that you're a good connector, so it is in everyone's interest for you to be excellent and for them to refer you if you are that. And they'll also like you more. Like, there's a whole bunch of psychological studies that show that you think you're gonna like use up like goodwill from other people. It turns out people like you more because when they do something nice for you, they think, I only am gonna do this because I like this person. And so they end up being reminded that they like you. And so it's just, you know, I think people are nervous about asking and you need to do it in the appropriate way, you need to be, like, you need to do it in a very positive, good way. But you have to remind yourself, this could be good for the other person and they'll probably like you more. And so you just need to get practice at doing that again and again and better and better and remind yourself of that every single time you feel that little pang of nervousness of should I really reach out with this question? Yeah, I wanna take this even, go ahead, Mark. Yeah, I was gonna ask like a little nuance that I think to me is like actually really important and maybe even more important than just being excellent is self-awareness, I think is one of them. And then the other one is like touch with reality, right? Like if someone comes to me and be like, hey, like, I think I can do this job. I'll come across in papers a little bit more junior for X, Y, Z reasons, but actually, let me explain like this part of my scope. And here are the things that maybe like don't, might not really add up, but like basically like show me that, hey, this person has thought deeply, like has like literally like proactively flagged any concerns that I could have or the person that I'm gonna could have. And then I'm more willing to help that person that the person is like, hey, I'm actually a perfect fit for this because like there's this super random connection to this role that I did five years ago and with this little project. And I'm like, bro, that's like far from a perfect connection like either are you trying to like, you know, like, you know, like deceive me, which I think that's like a very negative imitation or you're just not self-aware. And either way, either if it's one or the other, I have zero interest in putting my neck in the line for those conditions. There's also a lot of like wishful thinking that is happening, I think where like, if look, the truth is if someone's looking at the market and they're looking at their experience and they're like, real talk, I'm not sure I'm hyper qualified for any of the things that I'm like excited about, then they have to start telling, like they have to start drawing connections in their own head about how if someone squints the right way there's a fit, right? So, and that's just the reality for some people. And what I would say to, what I generally tell those people is go for the role you're like undeniably overqualified for if there's nothing you're hyper qualified for. Like there's gonna be something if you, like, and if you can't think of, if you're not resourceful enough or creative enough to like have the mindset that's like not so fixated on you doing a specific thing you're underqualified to do, I mean, that's kind of delusional in some sense, right? Like if you're like, I will only accept jobs that I am completely unqualified to do, like someone needs a reality check, go do the Tintin, find another role that you would be overqualified for in my opinion, like take a pay cut, you might need to get humbled a little bit and then start building again from a more solid foundation. It's a little tough love, but I think the alternative is to like nod along and smile and then never help that person, right? Like never make an intro for them, like never connect them with something. So that's my reaction to that. And I just wanted to like close, just say one more thing on the intro I made for you, Mark, that I think is kind of important. And it's a detail, but it's kind of an important detail. If you remember, that person did not ask me to make an intro for them. That's right. I was helping them get ready for this completely different company's interview process, but the positioning was so clear in my head from that conversation that I pinged you afterwards. And I was like, hey, this person's obviously on the market. They're looking for this kind of thing. I know your friend's hiring for it. Can you share their profile? And if your friend is interested in the profile, I'll ping the candidate and I'll see if the candidate's interested in the chat. Right? And so I think the lesson from that is that I was like, my only question to them is like, yo, can you budge with this guy? Is this guy actually impressive? I was just wanting like a yes or no, but it was like, yeah, I've been impressed with these guys. All right, cool. Yeah. But the point I'm trying to make is if your positioning is so clear, you don't even like have to do that much asking from the people you talk to, because they'll just be like, you're occupying a slot of like an N of one in their head for like that specific positioning. And so if they see anything that looks like that, the shape of what you just told them you're looking for, you'll be like the first person that they think about. So it's like, you don't even have to do that much heavy lifting on the asking side. Anyways, I know we're like super off topic about like, but yeah, I'd love to get a reaction to that, Dan. I'm sure it helped that they came in saying, here's my positioning, I'm going for this thing. Right? And like, you saw an example of this is how, this is my goal and this is how I'm positioning myself. That probably is much better than saying, what do you think I'm a fit for? Do you know of anything? And so by being crisp, by being clear, saying I'm going for this, like not asking for it opened up doors for other things. And so I just think it's a good, another example of just like have a goal, be really crisp and go for it. And you never know what other doors are gonna open up as you focus on doing that thing well. Yeah. Totally. I mean, in a weird way, you just gave like a masterclass of marketing. Like I'm like, everything that we just said, so like we can apply it to our businesses and be like, how are we like the N01 that like, no one else, you can find nowhere else. And if you're in one of these situations, this is where you should go. Like, I think this is exactly like what marketing is, right? Like you just need to like leave, like, you know, friend, you know, like rent free in people's head and whatever the time is that they're in that situation. Yeah. It's product positioning. And I tell, if someone, if I talk to someone for 30 minutes and I still don't know how to position them in my head, that's a failure of, I think, them to kind of like, I mean, maybe it's, I'm not being creative enough or something, but like I shouldn't have to be that creative to like know where to put someone in my head. And again, if I, if someone's like, I want to do a certain thing, I think it's so helpful. It's like, you know, I remember in my days where I was like, I don't know, doing a leadership review as a PM or something. If you come in with like, without a strong perspective, without a strong opinion, it's actually going to be hard for like the leadership team or like, you know, the CEO or whoever you're doing to formulate their thoughts. So it's almost like the more opinionated the proposal or the more opinionated the idea that you're presenting, the easier it is for people to actually figure out how they feel about it. Right? So that's why I think the specificity is important and it's okay. People don't have to get it right. You're not married to that initial positioning. You're zigzagging, you're finding product market fit. You're going to have maybe three, four at bats with like, I think I'm this. No, try again. I'm think I'm this. I think I'm this. And then at some point I'd be like, yes, that's you. Right? And then now are people hiring for that or not? That's a separate question. But like, that's definitely you. That's like the thing you'd crush. So, so Dan, how do people like use a product? How are you seeing people using AI almost like in this pre-interview prep, like almost like the know thyself stage of like what they should be aiming at from what you're seeing? Are you seeing anything like really interesting what people are doing there? I've reviewed so many resumes that it's clear they've used tools to try and get feedback on it, but it just, it shocks me at how infrequently someone says, here's my resume. This is the role I'm going for. And when I look at both of them, the resume like has a sense of who this person is and why they're the perfect fit for that role. It's clear people are just like throwing their resume into some system and they're saying, give me feedback on it. And it's like, again, it's not intentional. And so it's, I just keep thinking like there's some key things that even the AI isn't telling them to do. It's just like, they're not getting good feedback from the AIs on how to craft themselves well. It's just turning it into generic stuff. And it's not bringing to life their unique differences and helping them write it in a way that matches the way that recruiters and hiring managers actually read resumes. And that's the thing that feels like it's missing to me. And I'm shocked that that's the current state. But again, I think people are just blind to that. It's uncomfortable to sell yourself and pitch yourself and people are blind to these things. And they can see it when they look at someone else's resume, but they can't see it when they look at their own. And what is the, I mean, yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I think if you rely on AI to write your resume, like you'll be hanging squarely with, you know, the average and, you know, the recruiting game is a game of outliers, right? So I think everyone kind of that can see it in that way kind of agrees. And then the question is like, what is the antidote, right? For those people that are using AI to write their story, cover letter, like resume, like, is it just like more kind of human review? Is it more of just kind of like breaking the mold and like thinking from first principles, what's the story that I want to tell? Like, yeah. I found it's, AI is really good at saying, given the job description and what is going on at the company right now, this is what the company is looking for. And then you say, how do I mold myself in that way? And how do I take like, never lie, but how do you position yourself in a way that you are the best version of yourself for what it is that they're looking for? And I just don't think people think about it that way. They're like, oh yeah, I need to update my resume with all the things that I've done. And it's like, no, you need to really know your stories and then be able to map them to the company and articulate them in a powerful way that everyone's gonna like make sense, when they're scanning through these things, but still speaks to why you're the best fit of yourself for that role in that company. And I don't know why it sounds so simple, but I find that people really struggle with that process. So, I mean, it's almost like, kind of like there's a couple of things going on here, right? It's like, one was like the, how specific you go, right? And like, just like making sure you specify your resume to like whatever role or company you're going after. I think there's like a, maybe an element of like, you know, trash in, trash out type of thing. And then there's also like a problem of like, maybe like your stories are not detailed enough. And maybe like you haven't been able to like, distill what are the most important and more impactful things that you did and how to tell that story. Like, how much of it is like a problem of like just really bad inputs. And then that like, just, you know, LLMs are doing the best they can with what you give them, but it's just like, they're working out of like a very shitty foundation versus like maybe also like a problem of like sequencing. They're just like doing the right steps, but in the wrong order. And then therefore like you end up with like this like kind of weird kind of disaster. Yeah, yeah. I think that the first step that I don't think people do is they say, what does this company need? What are they looking for? And what's the answer key to the problem that they're facing? And how do I mold myself in that as best as I can? And like, that's step one. And then step two is, what are all the ingredients I have to bake, to make the cake that they're looking for? And how do I tell it in the best way possible that's truthful, but also I can tell a good story around. And then it's once you have those two things, then I think you can go and say, okay, rip my story to shreds and give it as much as you can. I think people skip basically both of those and they just dump some generic stuff into tools and they get some generic stuff out the other side. And again, I think that's gonna help you later on in your process, in your flow, because it's gonna help you think through how do you, like in an interview, when you're networking, all the things we were talking about, like you just need to put your flag in the ground somewhere and start doing that. And I think the more and more you do that, every step of the way, it's gonna be really well honed by the end of the process. I wanna take a moment before we get back to the episode to tell you about Insider Loops. This is a company that Mark and I started because we just believe this should exist. Companies should be offering candidates the best possible preparation for their loops, yet what they give them is vague and often not very actionable. So we took the matter into our own hands. We've put together well-researched and continuously updated guides for PMs interviewing at companies like Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, Stripe, DoorDash, and more. If you're getting ready for PM interviews at those companies, go over to insiderloops.com and learn more. It's a lonely time to be a product leader. The role keeps changing. There's AI hype everywhere and people look to you for answers. And that's why I created Supra, an invite-only community for senior product leaders and the partner of this podcast. And fun fact, I met Ben when he joined Supra. When you join, we match you with seven peers at your level on company stage. You can be honest about the problems you're facing and learn from people who've handled similar challenges in a fully confidential space. That can help you get to a solution much faster. Learn more at joinsupra.com. Now, back to the episode. I could not agree more. Yeah, I think the mistake and kind of like a slight reframe of that mistake at the very first step is I see people just spending too much time thinking about themselves versus thinking about the company, thinking about the opportunity, thinking about the role, thinking about the team. And that's, it's actually kind of like arguably like the, it's like sales 101. Anyone who's ever done sales knows that if you walk into like a pitch and all you do is talk about yourself and why you're awesome, you're not selling shit in that meeting, you know? Like you gotta understand them and you gotta understand their problems and then you gotta present selectively, present aspects of what you do that are kind of like the right glove for the right hand kind of thing. It's like you gotta shape yourself, right? And I think that, so it's a fundamental, and I see this even at the referral stage when people ask for a referral and I tell them, shoot me a blurb, an email blurb that I can forward to the person that specifically says why you'd be a great fit for that role and I get this like thing that's all about them and nothing about the role and I'm like, where's the thing about the role? Like where's the, you know? And I think, and if I click into that more, like I've asked myself, why does that happen? Because they're kind of like spending a pretty important bullet by asking me to do that and it's like, so why are they not doing that? And I think, I'm curious to hear your guys' take on why people do, why people have a hard time kind of like, or why they don't consistently present themselves in the way that we're describing. But I think it just takes more time and effort. I think it just like, it's an, you have to put more time with no guarantee of a return and it's so much easier to just ask for 10 referrals by just talking about yourself in the same way, to like ask for 10 referrals than to like take the time to like craft a super thoughtful, you know, note that describes why you're the perfect fit for like this role and then a completely different note for this role. And so I think it's more of like people just trying to, I don't wanna say laziness, but maybe it's just people just not putting in the effort. Yeah, and I think if someone is listening to this, like, oh shit, that's me. But like, you know, like I have a really busy life, like, you know, I have like a bunch of kids, I have a real job, like, you know, and then like, you know, like I cannot spend my time like writing this blurb that's super detailed that maybe it's gonna take me 20, 30 minutes. I think someone smart competent should be able to do that like in 20, 30 minutes, like just like to understand why I'm the right person for the right role. If you cannot do that, then to me that signals that you're not the right person for that role. Like, if you need to think so hard, why you, but I think to me that like, Ben, plus one, I come across this all the time. And with people that are very senior that have worked at amazing companies, and I'm like, this is just shocking, right? And I think one of it is like a little bit of arrogance, like, look at all the amazing companies that I work for, like, who wouldn't wanna hire me? Part of it, I think the other part of it is laziness. And, but I think that the message that I wanna send to people that maybe are operating from either laziness or arrogance is like, while it is a little bit more work upfront, it's gonna be way harder for you to get on the door through a cold connection or an application. So like, there's actually 15 or 20 minutes of crafting why you're the right person to the right, like, to the person who actually has, like, can help you is one of the best investments you can make. And assuming you're good and that you can kind of perform at the interview and that you're the right fit. So it's almost like kind of a counterintuitive of like, reminds you of like, you know, like hard decisions, easy life, you know, easy decisions, hard life. Like, it's one of those things that's just like, it's a little hard in the beginning, but it's gonna make everything a little bit easier down the line. So I think it comes down to anxiety, whether it's like imposter syndrome, or actually it's so many people suck at selling themselves. I think people at very senior levels are selling themselves constantly. And so there's probably more like arrogance at that level. But if you ask anyone what they're working on, most of the time you're gonna get just word salad. It's hard to find the thing at the right altitude that's concise, that's tailored to the other person's perspective. So A, most people I think just suck at talking about themselves, because it's uncomfortable. Sometimes it can feel like you just feel bad selling yourself. A lot of the people in PM audiences, if they felt comfortable in sales, maybe they'd be in sales. But a lot of PMs aren't in sales for the reason of getting the door slam in your face all the time isn't comfortable. And so I think once you feel that anxiety, it's really hard to think rationally. And it's really hard to step back and say, what would be the right thing? Like, what are they looking for? And how can I mold myself for that? And they just get sucked down the path of what is the best way to present myself? And the part of their brain that's rational that thinks what is the other person looking for doesn't even like light up. It's almost like a skill issue that is like leading to maybe anxiety, like a mindset issue, right? Of like, I don't know how to sell, so then I'm stressed. I don't even think it's conscious. I don't think people are going, I don't know how to sell. They're just saying, oh man, like once you start thinking, how do I sell myself? It's over. And it needs to be, what does the other person need? What are they looking for? And why am I the right fit for that? Instead of, how do I sell myself? Right. Yeah. But it's the same thing, right? Like, that's why good for sale people do, yeah. True, but like, someone could be a good fit for a role and they just feel really uncomfortable selling themselves, right? I think they could be great storytellers, all that stuff, they just have eaten way too much humble pie. And so I agree that it is a skill, but I always don't, oftentimes they can be similar, but like, I've talked to a lot of people who are. They can be similar but like I've talked to a lot of people who I'm just like you would go if you just Had a little more confidence the trajectory of your career would be So much like like on such a better ramp Yeah yeah, I think I Think it's such a different mind like in my head was I was picturing is almost like two scenarios in serial one Someone's like thinking they have to sell themselves and this other scenario is like what's the alternative? But when it's a really good fit, and I think it's someone just more describing. Why something is such a good fit for them like it's almost like You're just telling me what you see like This this is what I think it would take to be really successful this role. I feel like I have all of that Like I John I honestly think I would crush it in this job unless I'm missing something major It's almost like just a series of statements of like observations like tell me where I'm wrong And then if and that to me is a compelling like that could be a compelling pitch You're not trying to sell me. You're just telling me If this is true, and this is true, and this is true. I'm like a really good fit for this, right? So in my head, that's at least like one way to get me to feel like you're selling me without selling me You're just telling me what's what is but you but I don't have all that information I mean isn't this is kind of storytelling isn't it or all the time. I was just storytelling. I think is it's kind of like Storytelling is a very clear control of a narrative that leads you in your own way to a conclusion right and so if you tell me your story and It's like you lead a horse to water where you can't make a drink It's like don't make me drink if you're leading me to the water and I choose to drink the water You've successfully told me your story now We could I don't know I so much of this boils down to storytelling the more I think about It's like the universal skill for like On the job success getting like interview success getting interview success I think all of that is like storytelling and I like that's and people are just generally generally really bad at it because It is not just weaving together a series of facts. It's really controlling like where someone's gonna go in their head taking them on a journey and then Obviously you want to paint that picture in a way that gets To some degree the outcome that you're looking for and that maybe that's just sales. I don't know Yeah, I think this storytelling. Sorry go for it. Don't know. Sorry. Go ahead mark. No, I was just like But the best storytellers are able to tell a great story Because they know the audience really well what they want to hear and what they need, right? That's like I think Storytelling like if you didn't know what I want that I was the best storytelling that story is not gonna land right, but like if you're able to like have the empathy be like put yourself in that shoes of like Like man, what is that company like? Existential threat. What is my hiring manager? Like like why is there weak suck because I'm not in their life Like what what is there the problem? They're hoping they will solve if I join their team like if you're able to come with that and then Explain stories. They'll be like, oh man, like this is the person that I needed yesterday like and and he's giving me or she's giving me all this evidence that they're gonna thrive in this role like because I'm I can and I just see that they understand where I'm Coming from and who I am and and oh, I like them and they're asking really good questions and I feel understood and like You have to make people feel you might even be inspired You might you might be even be inspired as someone who works at the company by a compelling story from a candidate Like it is possible for really strong candidates to have such a great story that you're like shit I want I want to I want to buy into that story, right? Like that makes that help. I I think they not only understand where we're at, but I'm in the weeds This person's coming with a fresh strategic perspective. This story is Like the better story. It's like almost like the the better story than the story I tell myself about where we are that's like a really really strong obviously impression if you feel like someone else is literally Leveling up the story that you have about the environment that you're living in every day, right? totally, I Think so. Yeah, are you gonna say the the I think you need to have the empathy? I think you got to have storytelling one of the things that I think is really challenging And then I'm super passionate about is that no one gets any feedback It is so hard to get feedback You know, your friends don't want to be mean You're you're really gonna meet with your mentors that frequently recruiters aren't gonna tell you anything and and so it can be really hard to get a any feedback like so my wife is in medicine and Like doctors don't get as much feedback as they should Which seems which seems terrifying, right? And so it just feels like there's a feedback epidemic Which is horrible because like the nicest thing you can do is tell someone some brutal feedback to help them improve But people shy away from it. So I think that's another thing which is like you got to close the loop You get a have a have a thesis about what the what their problem is You got to do a damn good job telling a story but then also you need to be able to like learn from the signals that people are giving off or get some feedback and And iterate on it's not like it's not like it's perfect overnight. It's you're like a stand-up comedian. You're constantly Changing and adjusting which is what sales is right, but the It's like a key question is how quickly how tight can that can that loop be? So you improve as fast as you possibly can so that's one thing I'm super passionate about it's like giving people feedback and improving as fast as humanly possible Totally agree. Totally agree. And I I mean one of the practical things I've been like very concrete tip I give people is like a low-hanging fruit, at least when they're in the interview process We're doing mocks or in this kind of like early stage is just transcribe everything I think there's kind of I mean if some people are not comfortable doing it then that's I think in this market I generally feel confident telling people it's okay to transcribe like silently using something like granola or if Sorry, if work coach does this I don't want to take people away from the product But like something that allows them to get an accurate transcript of what's been said and then Like the sky's the limit for how much feedback you can mine out of those transcripts But what I will say people should not count on is they should not count on their memory doing a accurate job of helping them understand what they said and how it could have been said better because I My experience people's memories are just not reliable when it comes to recalling what they say in interviews or in and I think Even even people don't remember even what they were asked, which is crazy But you know if they don't write it down So some people have good memory, but like I'd say the majority of the people that I coach Don't so, you know You can't get the feedback if you don't have a track record of what you did You can't you can't like, you know You watch the game tape as an athlete because it's like literally an objective record of what happened like this is what happened Like we can learn what happened and figure out how to do it better But if you don't have a track record of what happened, you're kind of shooting in the dark So I think that's a really important tip for people is just like before you even think about how to get the feedback make sure You have the raw materials the ingredients to get the feedback on whatever it is The way you tell your story yeah, so so a Plug for work coach a work coach does do that It's just like granola one of the things that that work coach does it does the transcript and the audio? And so it's not just what you said It's how you said it It's and it's completely has to do sound it's invisible in the meeting, right? yes, but so I yes, it's it's just as invisible in as a Granola, it doesn't show up as a pot in the call The and I should just say you should you should always ask for permission. It's legally required in some states But I also just don't think there's anything wrong with saying do you mind if I record this cuz I'm just constantly trying to improve How I answer questions like I think it'd be a red flag if a company said no We don't wait in a real interview. You think people should should ask that that's interesting. Absolutely. I personally if like I'm biased because that's the product I'm building but if I was gonna hire someone and they weren't Looking to improve on their performance in the interview That's a red flag to me like you should be using every and you know, you should ask Right, they can say no and I'll of course listen but like it feels like a red flag if you're not trying to like would you want to hire a sales rep who says I Don't I don't I just do all my calls and I just hope they close like no You'd want the sales rep is like no. I'm like Tom Brady I studied my game film and I figure out what I how what I did wrong and I improve on the next one and I think you'd want this like that is a behavioral trait that I think you'd want people to to demonstrate especially in an interview And so I think who knows where it goes But I think years from now it'll be expected for people say do you mind if I record this so I can improve on? so because I Because because I've recently had some people go through interviews that I don't want to like out the company but like one of the companies we cover and with our guides and The policy was that the company will be transcribing but you are not allowed like they explicitly told the candidate They're not allowed to transcribe and it's the same reason they don't give you feedback It's like to cover their ass from an HR perspective, right? It's it's it's it's I think it's total BS and I think it's a it's a bad look for the for the companies and so Like that is a red flag to me. Obviously if it's let's say I don't know who it is Let's say it's anthropic people are gonna want to work inthropic no matter what but It's still a red flag to say it's you know, it's like these companies saying We're gonna tie one hand behind your back and expect you to do your job It's like come on No You want people that to operate at the top of their game you want them to try and be the best that they can be And so you want them to have that kind of mindset? so it does it does feel ridiculous that they're that the lawyers are running the process and are making it so that We want to benefit from this but we don't want you to because it's too much of liability for us Totally, but that's the story is all this time with the HR They chart cover your ass kind of policies from these companies where like people do 2030 I mean don't get me started on this like people put so many hours of into these interview processes just to have Sorry, we can't share any feedback. I've had people get it like an automated email after Putting like 40 hours into an interview process and getting all the way to the finish line just to be told like No feedback policy. Sorry. Here's an email. See you later. Yeah, it just pisses me off. I'm honest. Oh, it's My hope is it like how you do one thing is how you do everything and so like companies that do that are just not gonna Like that it's a red flag yeah, and so That very mate like maybe you don't want to work there if that's how they treat people at the initial exposure to the company I You know, I've been lucky in my interview process of like finding people that like bend the rules a little bit like for example, like when I was interviewing as an intern at Asana and I was actually put through like the normal like p.m. Loop that all PM's had to go through and And Which you know as someone who was like in college was like a crazy loop to go through because like the bar was quite quite high and But one of the things that I I did every interview is like they would leave five minutes for questions be like, you know Actually, I have a lot of questions and I'm gonna email them you about the company But like I actually want to use this time to like I have an interview in five minutes Like what should I've done better here and I did that for every interview except the last one But I think I may be doing the last one and that's actually one of the reasons why I ended up getting the job Hey, you're clearly very junior. We've never had anyone so junior to join the product team but because you showed this growth mindset for you literally asked every single interview, which we've never seen in any any part of the process, which is interesting and and everyone gave me feedback and And some people was like calm. They were like uncomfortable like whoa Like I don't even know like like like, you know, like the circuit has like, you know, the circuit has it broken? I don't even know like what to do here But it was interesting some people even like send me feedback after the interview because they're like, hey I feel like I gave you like a shitty answer. So here you go. And so that was like kind of cool And it's a it's a smart way to like kind of reverse it on them and do like if I were to join here Well, am I gonna like obviously you're not saying it but you're kind of saying it by asking the question. I'm just I was like I know the feedback Your company values you talk about growth mindset blah blah blah. I'm curious. Do you have any feedback for me like that? like way to turn the tables on them and Like reverse interview them and put that on us on them. So I think that's awesome Yeah. Yeah, so I know we got a little bit derailed but like I think they're I think there's an interesting thing of like Okay, like you chose to transcribe and also record the boys What do you think it's like Capturing the boys that's not capturing the transcribe in a transcripts that you think is actually really important and that makes a difference in interviews Do you think it's important to practice? Oh, yeah, I think there's It's a good question There's there's so much signal that's communicated that's just outside of a transcript reading a transcript is Fundamentally different than listening to like if you were to read the transcript of a podcast, it can be a fundamentally different experience than listening to the podcast and So I'm Ben's beautiful voice like that back to me. It's 80% of the experience. I Mean, it's not just having James Earl Jones over there It's also I'm serious. There's like like you want someone who's passionate and you you want to hear that and everyone has different personalities and you never know what's gonna grade on certain people, but like if if you have undeniable passion or you're if you say something in a Non-confident way like there's a like the same thing may be Analyzed differently and may be perceived differently just purely based on how you say it. And so that was a key part of What I was thinking in building the product was I want to use every signal possible to To help give you feedback on how you can improve Because it's it's all about practice. It's all about continually improving getting better and Reacting also to the tone of the other person And how they're showing up. So if there's there's just there's so much signal there. Yeah mark This is also why when I when I do mock interviews with people I use I mean, I historically use green which is just like recording the recording It's like a zoom recording kind of thing But I send them a link afterwards and I'm like part of your homework is to watch your performance in this mock interview I mean just watch it And come to your own conclusions like on what you think you could have done better And it's like just exposing someone to watching themselves be like literally just have a conversation They're like, oh my god, like my thinking pauses were so long I said like three minutes like thinking or like when I was checking in with you in the beginning I was like seeming really nervous or like when we got you asked a couple questions I got kind of like defensive almost like it's like people they're watching someone else Perform Tom and so like I think that doesn't come through in a transcript. I fully agree it's like something you got to kind of like if you even had the video obviously, that's the final dimension there It drives me nuts when people say I hate listening to myself that drives me bonkers Say more as I just yeah, I mean, do you want the job? Are you are you not willing to listen to an hour or 30 minutes of you speaking? And you're willing to trade Who knows how much money because you feel a little uncomfortable Like it's just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I don't understand why why that's like an accepted excuse That people say it's like get over it You need to look at yourself in the mirror every day. Like I don't understand like what is it about hearing yourself? For what it's worth That's how you like you do I used to feel More like that and what I'll say is that having a podcast and running this podcast for two and a half years I was thinking the same thing forced me to get more comfortable listening to my own voice and I've definitely noticed that the way I show up during the live Podcasts, there's a part of my brain That knows what this is gonna sound like in the future when I listen back to this and is choosing to approach the way I Present myself in this conversation differently because I've had to sit through all of those painful Sittings where I hate it's less about the vocal thing. I don't like it's more about like I sound like an idiot like I'm not proud of the way I presented myself that was very sloppy or whatever and But that's part of the growth mindset is like the more you If I can listen to myself in an episode and be like, oh my god, I was like terrible that's amazing for me because I'm like I Learned from it. So that's the goal is to get to get stronger and it's hard to get stronger if you're not exposing yourself to like How you're not good I say to people all the time, you know, you sound like that either way and Other people hear that are you like you don't want to improve you want to be doing things in a way that You will you yourself would recognize it's not great and you want to keep doing that just because you're a little uncomfortable And normally when I ask that question people say okay, but like, you know It sometimes I have to ask them a couple of times before they say, okay. Yeah I Would say it's I would even reframe it as far as it's just you know Plain-out selfish to not listen to yourself speak because you're literally just imposing that Way of talking to everyone. So then it's like how is it fair that everyone has to listen to you talk except yourself? Like that's not cool. That's a little bit You know hypocritical and that's the reframe that I would offer people I'm gonna be the one listening to myself and be like you sound like an idiot, but but I will listen to myself Maybe maybe it's selfish and maybe it's also sell the opposite. Maybe it's self-destructive like it's it's not it's not in your best interest to to It's like some people it's like I don't want to look you know, like there's something uncomfortable I don't want to look at the uncomfortable thing, right? It's like it you got to look at the uncomfortable thing Like it's like especially if the uncomfortable thing is You and how you talk and how you're presenting yourself to other people and also your inner ear in the middle of an interview process And your job searching you want to like You you you don't want to have soft spots I think you need to develop a very keen awareness of all the ways in which you're weak all of the growth areas you need to know yourself it goes back to where we started the conversation and if You don't like listening to yourself the homework. I would give people if someone's like that's me. I Want you to figure out why? Like listen to yourself do something like record a throwaway podcast record a mock interview record a conversation with a friend Force yourself to listen back to it on a walk or while you're doing dishes or whatever and if it feels cringe The homework is why does that feel cringe listening to yourself? What about it? Right and then there's there's there's learning there there's signal there about how to get better in some way So I did this so many times when I was a PM doing like customer interviews. I would listen back to customer interviews Because we didn't have AI yet and I would like watch myself do a customer interview I can like take notes on it and Share with the team and I'd be like man like I'm so bad at this like I'm so bad But but yet I need to get much better because I have like four more of these coming up like this week So I need to get really good really fast, right? So, you know don't there's no value in not looking at it This is my closing thought any closing thoughts before the two of you before we shift into the our last our closing questions The only one the one thought the one final close that I would say maybe on the topic of feedback is That would say Feedback is better than no feedback. But like the most useful feedback you can get is from someone who is like Very well versed in whatever you're trying to do So for example if you're preparing for a case interview Someone who either has you know is a calibrated interviewer as much use more useful than maybe your friend who works and you know who is a cook for a restaurant right or the cook for a restaurant, right? Or if you are giving a talk for a keynote somewhere, like someone who has a ton of public speaking experience is probably much better than, I don't know, someone who is socially awkward, who just doesn't really talk to people that much, right? So I think that's one thing to just keep in mind. And again, AI can be helpful, but AI is the average. LLM is trained on the averages. So it'll probably be better than no feedback, but there could be some false positives and some false negatives. And I think that's just something to keep in mind. Interesting. I know we're trying to wrap up, but I actually, I feel strongly that I see all these people trying to get experts, trying to find someone, and I just think they'd be so much better off if they used any AI. Use Ben's AI interview, use work coach, like especially if you can get some context to feed into it, like something that's available right now that you can do in 15 minutes, I would do that. And also maybe try and get an expert, but like I skew, I think people default to the person and I would default to do at least some AI and then also do the person. But I would flip it and do the AI first and then also do the, like if you can get access to an expert, great. But I find that people, I see all these people asking all these Slack communities for like peer interview prep. And I'm like, these peers aren't gonna give me the feedback. They don't know how to evaluate this. And so I think your ability to get the person who's an expert, who can give you feedback, it's gonna be too far in the future. They're gonna be too nice to you. And so I actually, I've been fully AI-pilled on the feedback front, but I agree you need to be careful about letting it push you to the mean. But most of the time it's fairly, a lot of the time it can help you with the real basic stuff that doesn't require being a world-class expert in whatever the domain field is. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's an and thing. I think like people wanna use all the tools at your disposal and ideally develop some judgment and wisdom on the right tool for the right job at the right time kind of thing. But I totally agree with you, Dan. I kind of think of using AI these days as almost like a very advanced spell check. I would never ask someone to review something before spell checking it back in the day. And these days my expectation is like, if you ask anyone for help reviewing anything, the expectation in my mind would be that you've already basically gone as far as you can with. I like that. With the tools. Okay, so let's start wrapping. So first of all, thank you so much for doing this. This was awesome. I actually really like where we went with the conversation, even though we had some AI in there, but I think we also just talked about a lot of the non-AI stuff, which is super important for context. And I think it was like a lot more strategic and high leverage for a lot of people too. So a couple of questions, then Mark's gonna ask you a very special closing question for Gratitude Corner. But where can people learn more about you, Dan, if they wanna kind of stay apprised with what you're up to these days? And then is there anything that the audience can be doing to be helpful to you? Yeah, yeah. So if you wanna follow me, I'm on LinkedIn. And if you're interested in WorkCoach, it's just work.coach. That's the domain name. Amazing. We'll add your link, WorkCoach link, or anything, any links that will link you to the product in the show notes so people can check it out. And it sounds like a great tool if you're interviewing. So I'm excited. And it sounds like it's used not just for interviewing. People can use it for like on the job and, you know, but it's, a lot of people use it for on the job too, right, Dan? Like not just for interviewing. Yeah, yeah. It could be starting a job. It could be managing a team. It's all about help. One of the ways I've been thinking about this is it's never been easier to create all this stuff. But the thing that's most important, how we interact with other people, there's actually very few tools and products trying to help you with one of the most important things is how we interact with other people. And so it could be managing a team, going for promotion, whatever it is. That's why I named it Work Coach. It's fairly generic. Works for all those phases of work. So great for people interviewing. If you know anyone interviewing, love to have them try it out, but also anyone else who's ambitious at work or wants to improve or just as a growth mindset. Amazing. And sweet. Now our very exciting gratitude corner. So yeah, we just wanna give you an opportunity and you've had an awesome journey to this point. And I'm sure there's a bunch of people that have played a key role. So just wanted to give you the opportunity to maybe just give a shout out to one or a couple of people that have played a key role in that journey. Yeah, yeah. So I am forever grateful to a bunch of people. One of the first people is Dharmesh Shah, the co-founder and CTO of HubSpot. It's incredible. His public persona feels like he's the same person in all my interactions with him. It's the same person who's giving keynote speeches on podcasts and on social media. He's just amazing and generous. Every time I've emailed him, he's always responded really quickly and tried to do as much as he can. He's the reason I sold the company to HubSpot almost 15 years ago. And so I'm forever grateful for him because that really set me on the path I'm on now. Another person from HubSpot is Brian Balfour. I definitely had some rocky times when I was at HubSpot and Brian really kind of helped fix my career at HubSpot. And then I worked with him for seven years at Reforge. So I'm just eternally grateful to Brian Balfour. He's just a fantastic human being. And the third person, the first engineer at Reforge, his name is Buford Taylor. I deleted a production database table once and he saved my ass. And I'm always grateful to him. He likes to rip me about it every once in a while, but he's just good people. So I'm forever grateful to Buford. Oh man, that sounds like my worst nightmare. I feel like I've been close and I feel like now with AI, I would have definitely done it. So yeah, I'm glad to hear that people survived that. That's awesome. What an awesome engineer to be able to handle that gracefully and yeah, big shout out to Brian too. We had him in the pod. He's awesome. And maybe Dharmesh will get him at some point, but. I love Dharmesh's content. I've never had the pleasure of chatting with him, but love the content. And if he's the same person he is in conversation as he is, the way he presents himself in his content, I think we'd have like a really lovely conversation. So yeah, I would love that. And yeah, you've been lucky to have some really strong people kind of in your path. So I'm happy we could make some time for you to give him a shout out. Yeah, thanks so much. This has been really fun. Amazing. That's a wrap. Thanks guys. All right. Bye-bye. Thanks. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.