#108: How to find clarity when your career path keeps shifting | Molly Siemers (Coach + Advisor for Senior Product Leaders, ex-Kiva, Change.org)

And we are live. Hello. Hello. I'm so excited for this for, for many reasons. I've yeah. I've known you, I think for now, like over three years, three Supra. And I've watched your awesome journey from, you know, incredibly talented product leader. Always worked on awesome mission-driven companies to now an incredible coach. And yeah, I think the reason why I was super excited to have this conversation today is because just to share some context and every month I look at the themes that different Supra groups are discussing. And I would say like over the last maybe six months, I've noticed a shift from, I think before the topics were more kind of like interpersonal coaching, coaching related, like stakeholder management dealing with, you know, either, you know, with the funders or employees. I think now it's shifted to be way more tactical. I think AI being the main driving force, either people feeling the pressure from their managers to be like, Hey, like we need to adopt this or just like the foam of like feeling behind and feeling like you're living leverage on the table. And we were talking in the pre-recording before and you're saying, Hey, like, I think actually now it might be the most important time to, to bring kind of a, to, to have coaching around. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on why, why do you think that's the case? What do you think? You said it, you said the intensity picked up in the last six weeks. And I'm just like, yeah, just, and maybe it has to do with the rapid acceleration of the models, you know, that have been released over the past several months. But what I've been seeing overall is people just seem like they're just running faster and this pressure of, you know, how am I going to keep up against the backdrop of like, oh my gosh, there's layoffs going everywhere. How do I remain relevant? And also just the, you know, the overall backdrop of what's possible. So it's not just like layoffs and pressure and how am I going to keep my job? But it's also like a renaissance of creativity where all of a sudden anybody can build something and people are doubling down. And so I think it is really tactical and it's a really interesting moment of really rapid learning and acceleration in that way. But the, you know, the people part of it doesn't go away. We're all humans. But I think what we're seeing more and more is people sit down and they lock into their computer in a way that they haven't before. And especially for people who are only working from home, it's almost like we become like, you know, heads in bottles and, you know, don't remember that there's, you know, an environment around us or people around us. And so the work of coaching is really remember that you are a full human and you can bring so much to the world if you take care of your whole human self. And the more that you do that, the better leader you can be for the people around you. And Molly, just to contextualize the rest of the conversation, can you just like speak a bit about like the kinds of people you're coaching these days, if there's any, you know, if you have like a sweet spot or any general attributes? Yeah, absolutely. So I would characterize myself as an executive coach for product leaders. So I work with, you know, anybody who's in a leadership position in product and that includes some super ICs who are really, you know, leading cross-functionally. And the people that I love to work with the most are the people who are really thinking about, I'm going into a next era or a transition and I want to be my best. And I know that some of the things that I've been habituated to aren't the things that are going to be the things that lead me to the next level. And so it's really about people who are interested in what I say, putting the reps in and doing A-B tests on how you're operating in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Mark. I don't know if you have an immediate follow-up to that, but I wanted, do you have an immediate reaction? No, no. I had a, yeah, you go. Yeah. No. So, so another piece of context for our relationship is we were actually in our first, my first supra cohort, Mark put me in a, in a cohort with you and some other awesome people like Andy Kiel and I got it. So we both kind of got a chance to, to know each other while we were in our last, I guess that was your last full-time. Yeah. That's when I was rolling off of my last full-time role. And I was literally like, I don't know what I'm going to do, Ben, what are you doing? Yeah, no, it was, it was awesome. I've told Mark so many times how useful that group was for me because it created this like continuity for me from my last full-time role into whatever the hell it is I'm doing now. And I wanted to ask you kind of maybe like feel free to go wherever you want with this, but what was it that pulled you into coaching or why did coaching kind of like emerge for you as, as the, you know, what was the spark? And then if as part of that answer, I'm curious if you ever had like great coaches or a great coach that you saw what, what the impact could be like as a, as a recipient of the experience. So the thing that pulled me to coaching is sort of in retrospect, I always should have been a coach a little bit like, you know, when, when you do those different assessments in your job, it would always come up for me like, oh, counselor, advocate, you know, it's like, okay, cool. I can do that as part of my product leadership job. And as a product leader, I was always drawn to mission-driven things that really like resonated with me more than like, oh, that's a really smart career move. I'm just like really drawn to doing things that matter. And so that evolution of coaching was literally, I put up a jingle and a website and was like, hey, I'm going to, you know, do some coaching. And, you know, some folks in my, in my network found me and I started coaching with them and I was like, holy crap, this is really fun. Like, this is like the best part of product leadership without having to like go to the board meeting or, you know, do deal with the internal politics. And it's really just purely around product leadership. How can you do your best work reviewing some of, you know, the things that were going on in the different clients' worlds. And so I was literally like, wait, why, why haven't I been, why haven't I been always doing this? And so that's when I decided to double down and do some training and some, some methodology and coaching. And I'm really glad that I did that. Not because I was like, oh, I don't know how to do this, but the frameworks really give me a language to get from what I'm thinking about in terms of insight and to be able to communicate with that, with people really clearly. I definitely, I definitely want to get into like, you know, why coaching is more important than ever now. But, but now that we're in this rabbit hole, I get the question asked pretty often and I, I'm extremely unqualified to answer it. So I'm going to answer it. So I'm going to ask it to you instead. But like a lot of people come to me, it's like, hey, like, when is it the right time to get into coaching? And I think like the, the question behind the question there is, I think you're probably like a very effective coach because you've had this awesome career and you've like seen a lot of things, you've managed teams, you've had to like manage up to CEOs. So in a way, like this journey has prepared you very well, but some careers, like maybe like to ask the question differently too, like, do you think you would have been as effective as a coach as you are today? If you, maybe you got into it like 15 years earlier when maybe you were getting started in your career? I think it's a really, it's a tough question to try to have a definitive answer to. I think it's definitely possible for people to be great coaches without that professional experience. It just happens to be that the people that I love to work with most are product leaders. And so having that shared experience and that shared language helps us accelerate the conversation and leap forward. Like nobody has to explain to me why stakeholder management is hard or why their relationship with their engineering partner is really important or why it's hard to balance impact with revenue. And so, you know, those kinds of things, I think just helped me to understand the context a lot more cleanly. But I will say through my, through my training that I did, I was in a cohort with 20 other people, some of whom didn't have much like work experience. They were really coming into it, you know, earlier in their career. And I saw them be fantastic coaches as well. I think it really matters who you want to focus on as a coach. Yeah. Mark, I don't know if it, and I'll just share something, but a lot of the people that I spend my time coaching, I'm kind of like decreasing some of the coaching I'm doing these days. But when I do, when I do coaching still often with pretty like senior people who are actually in like certain organizational territory that I never, I was never in, like they're more senior than any of the full-time roles I've ever been in. And yet the feedback I get is that the coaching is very valuable because of the way that I help them get clarity on their own thinking. And Molly, I don't know if this resonates for you, but for me, I feel like it's very rare that I will like seed an idea in someone that they've been, they've not thought about before. Or it's like a lot of times people have mapped the territory or like the variables. It's just like, they're kind of lost in the weeds. And then you can kind of ask some questions and frame things and point out observations. And like, for example, if they get, if they, if their energy shifts when they're talking about one, like they're like, I'm torn between these two options. I don't know what to pick. I've analyzed it to death. And it's like, when you're talking about one of those options, your energy just like took off. And then you're talking about this other one. And sure. Like, you know, in the PM interview space, maybe it's like this option is going to pay 30% more, but this option I'm really excited about. And I'm like, let's play it out for a second, right? Like what happens if you go with that option? You're not excited about that pays you more versus that option. You're really excited about that pays you less. Let's just talk it out. And I think so, um, the ability to your point, like I do have obviously like 10 years of experience in product management. So even though I haven't done the exact job they're going for, I think I agree with you that about the shared terminology, but I would consider myself in earlier career. Right. Like you're noticing how a person is shifting even when they're not noticing. And so that's really an important part of it. Like you said, it's, it's the, it's the pattern recognition and the systems thinking and looking at the whole person and understanding what their life is like to be able to crystallize those things that they, they might not see themselves. Yeah, it almost, yeah. Hearing it back, it almost sounds like the, the coaching experience is kind of like mutually exclusive from your previous career. I mean, I think that there can be some benefits around like shared language and like maybe having more empathy for that client. I think maybe if I was, if I was going to guess, um, based on my experience, like I think that the challenge is you're earlier in your career and you haven't had that experience is the credibility part of it, which I think you kind of get into like a cold start problem. Right. Cause like, Hey, like you need to like at least have a few clients that you've worked with in the space that you want to get into and they have good things to say. And then you can be a, Hey, like I actually have worked with this type of people versus if you're like a product leader, but I, Hey, I've been through it. It's for the first few clients, it's a much easier sell. That's probably the big difference there. It's also a lot of just like helping connect dots between things. And I think if you have less experience, you have to, I think, make up for it. Like if you have less firsthand work experience, you'll have to make up for that with being like, I don't know, a voracious reader or like someone who's immersing yourself in conversations with a lot of like people that are navigating the similar types of issues. So you can at least help people connect the dots between things. But yeah, I don't think there's like one path to being a coach, but, and also like, there's like super experienced coaches that are just not that helpful to people. Like they, I get feedback that they've gone to the people with like massive audiences sometimes and it's not that helpful when I'm talking to somebody who's potentially interested in coaching. Like I'm having a deep conversation with them because I want to know, is this somebody that I personally feel connected with and really want to spend four to six months with because that's, you know, the kind of coaching engagement I do is pretty deep. And I really get to know people like to the point that when a coaching engagement ends, I'm like, oh, but I miss you. Like, I really want to be spending more time together. And that's, you know, it's a, it's a work relationship, but it's not the same kind of relationship where as a, you know, a coworker, you're like, oh, we're going to be friends for a long time with some of my coaching clients. I'm like, we would totally be friends, but we don't have that relationship. Right. We have a coaching client relationship. And so I always feel a little sad when, when the end, but I, I'm excited when people reach out and I'm like, Hey, I just want to pick your brain on this thing. Like I always excited to do that. I had somebody do that this week. Nice. No, I, I love that. I, I remember like a few years ago, I went deep into like, I was working on some mental health related products, like an app I built called breathe. And I was looking into like the therapy world. And I, I watched this like fascinating talk that talked about the number one predictor for success with like going to therapy is they, they had a term for it, which is something or like the thing that makes the therapists most skilled, I guess, like they studied this is something they called like real-time modulation of therapeutic alliance. And that just like stuck in my head, real-time modulation of therapeutic alliance. And I think what I interpreted that to mean, and I think it's roughly what they meant is, you know, as you are your therapeutic alliance is you and the client, whether it's therapy or let's apply this to coaching for a second, because it could be like coaching alliance or whatever, but it's your ability to create this sense that we're in it together. Like I'm with you on this journey. So we're, we're on an alliance, we have an alliance and to, to modulate it, to to kind of like evolve it and organically make it improve and kind of bend it in real time based on like what's happening. So you never kind of compromise the alliance, but like the way the shape of the alliance is kind of evolving as you go. And it was just like an interesting image in my head. I don't know if you have any reactions to that, but I think about that all the time. You know, the going into any coaching relationship, it's first and foremost about the relationship. I'm going to be here for that person and try as hard as I can to really understand what it is to be them because they're not coming. Although some people say that like, I just want you to tell me what to do, but they're not coming to be told what to do. They're coming to explore ways that they can be even better, even more aligned to their into their values so that they can be a better leader. And so you have to have the relationship before any of that can happen. Yeah. Do you? Go ahead, Mark. I'm curious, what are some good questions that people should ask to see if the relationship has the potential to get there? And I'm curious on the other side, what are some questions that you're asking them? So it's really interesting. I ask a whole bunch of questions and I really get into trying to understand not just like what's on the table in terms of what's on their mind that they want to work on, but I try to get an understanding of their whole life and how they think about things and how they operate in the world. And it's that information and sort of the vibes that are really more important than any like answer, like definitively to a question like, you know, about their work style or anything like that. Like I, I currently have a couple of clients that couldn't be more different than me from like their personal background and what they do. But because I've spent the time with them to try to get to know them, I'm like, well, this is really fascinating. And that's, you know, for me, that's what it excites me most about coaching. It's like people are fascinating once you get to know people, like especially people that are coming because they're interested in personal and professional growth. They're all like wonderful. And I like, I'm excited to know them. And so it's really in those first conversations about how does it feel to be with this person more than any like cognitive answer they could give to a question. Mark, I'm connecting that to what we just talked about with Heaton about the vibes creating the environment. Yeah, it's kind of, yeah, keep going. And no, it's fascinating. And it seems like once, so is the vibe check more on like, do they give you enough to be able to feel what it would be like to be them? Or is it, is that the first check? It's through the conversation. But I will say like, you know, you get a feel for somebody right off the bat. But generally, I like to dig in a little bit more because sometimes people are just nervous or they're like, what is this even about? And what am I getting myself into? And so getting into that, and I think part of what I'm looking for with a potential client is, are you curious? Are you interested in growth? Are you open to experimentation? Are you open to new ideas? So it's that kind of check. So if somebody is, for example, I was, had somebody referred to me through a friend. And I think basically the friend was like, you really need coaching. And so the person came to the meeting with me and they're like, I don't know. My friend told me I need coaching. I'm like, okay, I'm not sure that this is really what you want. And maybe not the thing that you're ready for. And I could tell that pretty early on. And, you know, asking questions, they were, they just really weren't, it wasn't the thing they were interested in right at that moment. Yeah, I feel like what you just mentioned to me, like the, the reason someone like my friend told me I need coaching could be like a orange-ish flag maybe in evaluating fit is because I think like the most satisfying part of coaching in my experience has just been when you can, it feels like something will happen after the conversation. You feel like there's something that clicks. They're seeing the picture from a new perspective. They are getting clarity on the next thing they should do or the next conversation they should have. And then when you either there's an email follow up or in the next conversation, they tell you what they did after last time. So you, it feels like it's a better use of time because like something's going to come out of it. And I just, my view is people are generally less likely to take action after these kinds of coaching conversations. If they're not kind of like fully bought in that they're trying to do something differently or their, their motive, if there's a motivation problem. Yes. And if you do coaching with me, there's always assignments between, between the sessions and it's part of the contract that we set up when we get into it. And so those practices in between, I talk about them as AB tests on your operating system. Let's try this thing and see what happens. Right. And so a lot of the work in how I work happens in between the sessions. And then in our sessions, we're talking about what have you been reflecting on? What have you learned? Where do you, where do you want to take that next? And so I think of myself as being a guide in this effort, but I'm not the leader. The person is the leader. They're saying, this is what, you know, what I'm interested in exploring. And then I'm seeing the, the system underneath the conversation and trying to figure out like, great, like, here's where we are right now. What are some ways that I can ask some questions that pull you a little bit out of your comfort zone and into this next part of the conversation? I don't know if that, that is too big for you guys. No, but it's really this idea that there's a system at work underneath the conversation. Yeah, that makes total sense. And obviously completely confidentializing what you, your answer, but can you give an example of a, of an assignment that you, you know, you gave someone that you thought was to be really transparent about how I work. So the training I did was in integral coaching, which is like whole person. How do you, you know, how do you use all the intelligences of your world to go after the things that, that you want to go after? And so a lot of the work that I do with clients is getting out of your head and getting into some of those other intelligences. So a really fun one that I give people. So a really fun one that I give people just to start tapping into what's going on in your body, what's going on in your emotional field, like who's been interacting with you today is called a threshold practice. And so it's basically, anytime you pass a threshold, stop for 10 seconds, what's going on right now? What's going on in my emotional state that can like give me information that my brain might be missing? A threshold, going through a doorway, getting into a car, going upstairs, any changes like that. So it's basically a real-time trigger to say, what's going on with me? And so going back to the idea that, we're all so locked into our computers and all the people that we work with are in the computer and all the work that we do is in the computer. So just having a moment to really step into the world and what's going on with me, it's so simple, but it really unlocks a lot for people in terms of remembering how they wanna be operating, remembering who they wanna be. It's almost like gives them like a little reset. I'll be like, hey, like, it's my start, it's my chance to start over if I want to start over or break a cycle. It reminds me of, I just have one quick comment and then Mark, feel free to take it, but I promise I'm not gonna ask a question, but it was reminding me of a book called Island. You can ask a question, by the way. I don't have a question. It's totally cool, man. I don't have a question. I feel like I've been talking too much, but it's probably the coffee. But there's a book called Island by Aldous Huxley that I really love. And I'm not gonna get into the whole premise of the book, but mindfulness and kind of like psychology is like a big theme in the book. On this island, there are these birds and the birds, I thought it was so funny when I read it, but the sound that the birds make is they say pay attention. And so there's a bunch of these birds on this island and it's kind of, I think about that sometimes because if you just imagine us all being surrounded by little beautiful birds that when they come across us, they kind of do a little pay attention sound, how much more like mindful and just like present people might be. Sounds like a nightmare, honestly. I didn't think it was a metaphor for the modern world where like everything's constantly like pay attention. Well, I think in the book, the context was not pay attention to the bird. It was pay attention to what's happening. Be aware of your surroundings. Sorry, I don't know if that was a detour, but go ahead, Mark. You have something probably much better to say. No, no, no, I like it. I mean, I think if it was like really soft and maybe in French, like that would be cool. But like, just the pay attention, pay attention. That sounds like a little bit intense. I think the book was written in maybe the 60s or something. So it's like a, it's a different era. Ahead of its time. And it knew the AI revolution was coming. So no, my just question was gonna be like, so when you ask people to like start to notice what they're feeling, is the exercise mainly to just like write it down too? Like, are you asking them to journal? Yeah, so when I work with someone for the first time and I do a program design for them, we work a lot in metaphors. And so when I was talking about methodology, giving me the language to be able to communicate more clearly, this use of metaphors is really foundational. And so we talk about, here's a metaphor for what it feels like to be you today. And here's an alternate metaphor where I can see all of your strengths and gifts are really open to the world. And so how might we work on experimenting with living more in that world of the greater possibility and the greater opportunity. And so most of the time when we're looking at reflections, it's really to notice when did I show up more like the old kind of metaphor that is built on all of my habits and all of my automatic reactions to things? And then when are the times that I am acting more in this new kind of mode? And what do I notice about that? And so it's all about noticing our habitual things that we do, deciding, does that work for me right now? And then deciding to change. And so we work in all three of those modes. Like first is noticing, second is deciding and the third is acting. And so really thinking about how to build that noticing muscle first is the first step to understanding how to go about building those muscles and new habits that you wanna change. I'm curious, and there's also like a little self-serving, but I've noticed in the last three years that people have less and less patience, especially like product leaders. They're like, I want the answer. Like, you know, like, I want the fish. Like, what are you teaching me? Like all these extremely complicated like way of like fishing and a lot of times I just wanted the answer, but hey, like I have this problem. Is that what you're noticing in the groups? I think, yeah, a little bit. Like I think people are just like, they have this urgency of like, kind of like, you know, I have a lot of things going on. I just want the answer type of thing. And I think, I mean, I'm generalizing a little bit, but I am noticing a little bit of that. I observe a bit more openness within the community, because there's like a sense of wanting to learn, like they're here to learn from each other. But maybe you're seeing, but I agree with you in general. I think people are, there's so much, there's cognitive overload on like frameworks and stuff. Like I just need the thing. Yeah, so I mean, I think, yeah, it's a little bit, maybe it's not like absolute, but it's more of like, I feel like it's trending this way. So I'm curious, like, do you encounter people like, like how do you manage that patience, right? Because like, I think you probably start to notice like some differences, like pretty early on and subtle, but like maybe like the big thorny problem of like, hey, like I had to get like my roadmap or vision approved by the board. Like it might be hard to see like the connection a little bit. So like I'm curious like- Practically, they work on a continuum with people. So the continuum runs from the edge of peer coaching, which is, you know, asking probing questions and helping people come to the answer themselves, like all the way over to what's my advice and opinion based on my, you know, 25 years in product. And so we can run that continuum. A lot of times, if people really want an advice session with me, I'll just set up an extra session and we'll just be like, okay, we're gonna be in a different operating mode right now. And that's just really tactical. And I think there's value to that for sure, but it's not lasting value. It's like one time value. And the funny story I will tell is one of my clients from last year when we were debriefing, cause I am a good product person, right? I get my feedback and I debrief on things. Little retro. And she had said, you know, when we first got started and you said, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna give you advice on, you know, what I'm not gonna tell you what to do. She was like, oh, that's really disappointing. And then at the end of the, you know, the session, she said, but I didn't know that this was actually what I needed, like the coaching. So a lot of people will end up coming to me. They're like, oh my gosh, I'm in a head of product role for the first time. I actually don't have a product background. Help me, help me through this. And sure, there's some tactical parts of that, but the real thing underneath that is how do you feel confident taking on a role that you're obviously qualified for, or you wouldn't be in it and take that role by the reins and drive it. And so that's a personal development exercise, not a, how do I create a roadmap that the board is gonna like exercise? Yeah, I have a follow-up to that. You didn't answer my question from the start, Molly, which was about your favorite coach or someone that coached you. So my question for you, I'll weave it back in if you want to touch on it, but like, I'm always curious when it's the right time to finish a coaching relationship or like when, as a coach, you think it's a good moment to kind of walk away and let them either move on to their next phase of coaching with someone else or to just take a break from coaching. And again, if you have any personal anecdotes on your experience with coaching, I'm just like, we've never talked about it. So I'm genuinely curious if you've been coached and been on the receiving side of that. Yeah, so I have worked with a couple of coaches and it was good experiences in general, but it definitely didn't have the depth that I work with people now to the point that like, I sort of joked, I'm like, I could have used me when I was in a, you know, in my head of product roles. And so, you know, part of what excites me about this work is like how much I can see the value coming through in that. And so I'll say my best coaching relationships were with leaders and organizations that I worked with that actually took the time to understand me as a human and help me see some of those paths. And so I would say those relationships are even more valuable. Were those more like mentors? Mentors, but also in a really coaching perspective. Like I think of mentorship as really being like, come to me with this thing that you're working on and we'll work it out together and I'll give you my advice. Where the coaching relationships that I've had with leaders and organizations have been like, I see you as a human and this thing seems like it's getting in your way. Let me help you see a different way around that. Got it. Okay, so now to this other, the second part of my question. Sorry, can I ask one? Yeah, go ahead. So I think there's an interesting part where you said, I had to work with coaches, but not at that level of depth. What does depth mean here? Is it like just getting to know the person a little better? On that level of all the ways that they operate in the world, like how do they think about things? Like how do they act? What are their family relationships and their work relationships? What's deeply important to them as a human and really getting into what does it feel like to be this person? Like that's always my goal in these and for better or for worse, like I always say, I'm sort of a hard person to get to know. Like friends of mine will tell you that sometimes it took a long time to get to know me. And so I think I'm probably a hard person to coach. Do you? Yeah, same here too. Maybe I'm projecting here, but do you feel most people know? Like all those answers to all those questions or buckets that you mentioned, like what they want, like their action, their family. The non-answer is also data. It tells me like, if somebody is like, I don't know what I think about that. I'm like, great. That tells me that that's a really interesting place for us to explore. Also, like I think what you know consciously is just like a sliver of like what you know subconsciously. So like the process of pulling back the banana peel or whatever analogy metaphor we want to use, like you find out stuff about yourself that like, I'm sure each of us has things we want right now that we have not like verbalized for ourselves and even in our own heads ever that we want this thing or like, this is what we need. Learning what you need is like always like a really big one for people. Like what needs do I have that are not being met right now is a different way of saying like, well, what do I want? And so trying to understand your needs and what gets you to like baseline, you know, stasis where you're not in fight or flight mode, right? Like that's- Yeah, and it comes back to what we were talking about in terms of sometimes it's your brain doesn't know, but your heart might know or your gut might know, you know, like if you sort of practice, if I just, if I try to think into this question from a heart perspective rather than a brain perspective, what comes up differently? If you're enjoying this conversation, please check out the links in the show notes to support the podcast. Mark and I do this out of love, but to keep it going, we also need your support. So thanks, and now back to the episode. Yeah, I mean, maybe tying it back to how we started this conversation. And I really feel like people today just don't have the time to prioritize those types of questions. And even just like introspection with themselves, like they like feel like, hey, like I already have like a very demanding job, right? That I may or may not have in a few months because like the industry is changing a lot. And I'm either, I'm spending time with my family or I need to catch up on this AI thing that everyone, yeah, exactly. I need to be like clock, like be like skills with clock code or setting up my Mac mini. And so it's like, where do I even have the time to like decide like what do I need or like what do I want out of my life or my relationships? And I mean, I've been feeling this and I feel like I'm a pretty intentional person, but yeah, it's so easy for prioritizing that. And kind of convincing yourself, rationalizing yourself that that's the right position. The biggest topic I would say with people is that they have this idea that they're compressed for time and all their problems are time problems. And if they could just block their calendar in a different way, set aside three hours on Thursday to do that strategy deck, but then Thursday shows up, they have the three hours and they actually have nothing to give for the strategy. And the point is that it's never a time problem. You can like rearrange your calendar a hundred different times and still have the idea like I don't have time. And so when people say, I don't have time, what they really mean is I don't have capacity. And so that's actually the nut of why coaching is so important right now is because building personal capacity isn't about time. It's about noticing and being observant of how you're spending your time, aligning your choices with where you really wanna be going, not just like three people on my team sent me urgent messages this morning, right? So if you build that personal capacity that says, oh, that's data, there's these three messages over here and you don't allow yourself to like automatically respond to that with your emotional way that you're like, oh my God, I'm really stressed out now that these three people, but if you're like, oh, there's some data over there, those three people need that. Let me look at that within this space that I have to say, does that map to my big picture? Is that the place that I should be spending time right now? And the more capacity that we build, the easier it is to do that. That's why when you meet great senior leaders, they seem super calm all the time, right? Like I can handle anything, it doesn't matter. Like things are gonna come my way and the more senior you get, the more crazy that stuff is. And so building that capacity to say, I can be calm no matter what's coming up because I can choose what my emotional response is. I can choose how my body reacts. I'm not just gonna scream at the three people in my office because that's my gut reaction to do it. How do you assess where you're at in terms of like capacity? And then maybe like a follow-up there is like, how do you increase your capacity? I know those are two big questions, but maybe like self-diagnosis. It's definitely a feeling and it's human, right? And so even coming to do this podcast with you guys, I'm noticing like, oh, my chest's a little tight and how's my voice gonna sound on this podcast, right? So I did some meditation in the morning and I went for a walk to get my body moving in the cold and rainy San Francisco sidewalks this morning. And then honestly, I put on my playlist of songs that I like to sing out loud. And I did that to sort of get all of my tools in order for coming onto this podcast with you guys today. And so it's really, I'm just gonna say it again, it's about noticing, deciding, and acting. And so that's all that it's about. And is there, sorry, I'm now asking a lot of questions, but is the capacity bound to, like what is the time frame of capacity? Is it framed like, okay, got it. So is it a snapshot in time? Like how much capacity do I feel like I have right now? Yeah, so if you think about it in terms of like, it goes hand in hand with agency, right? So if you feel like your calendar is controlled by other people and you don't get a say-so on how you spend your time, because you're so busy, busy, busy, and you can't believe this next thing, got added onto the list on top of that. And how are you gonna manage that? It's very different than saying, I live a very full life and I have a lot going on. And it's important for me to be really clear on what I'm gonna do next. And so I'm sure everybody's like been in that. I can think, Ben, with you having a small child, like I think how I was operating when my kids were young and I was doing product leadership roles and working in person and having to rush to daycare just felt like the pile was never gonna stop piling, right? And so definitely I was doing a lot on automatic mode in that time. My trick, I think, Mark, I told you this trick. The trick that I did at that time was if I was feeling super overwhelmed, I'd add one more thing. Because if I added one more thing to the pile, then it would force clear prioritization. I don't know if I recommend that as a strategy, but it's what I do. I mean, it's what they say, right? Like you wanna get something done, give it to a busy person, right? Like it's... Well, I mean, I'm definitely more in the bucket of trying to get better at saying no to things because I feel like I'm naturally... Well, I feel like with a three-year-old, the mornings and the evenings and the weekends are very, maybe we call them lower capacity windows. But because I don't have a boss and I have, I guess, a partner in Mark and then I have clients that I work with and customers, I do have the privilege, and it really is a privilege because I'm super grateful to control my calendar in so many ways during the work hours. And so I feel like I don't know how I would be getting through this phase of life right now without that. I think it sounds like it would be a much more challenging phase of life than it is. And so I'm happy that I've made the decisions I've made to get to this point. And yeah, one thing that was kind of coming to mind as you were talking is like, I think a lot about identity. Like how do we define ourselves? What do we pride ourselves on? Who do we think we are? And I think I've always kind of like defined myself as a responsive person. Like I've prided myself on being responsive. I've also prided myself on having like a bias towards action, like speed from idea to like shipping something or testing something or talking to someone about it. I've never really had to work on that, if I'm honest. It just comes very natural for me. If anything, I have to work on like slowing down and not necessarily jumping to stuff. So for me, I struggle with, like you described those like executives who kind of just like hold themselves, like anything could come their way and they're just like cool as a cucumber. I've always perceived, I don't mean this in any negative way towards such executives, but I've always perceived them as kind of slow and found myself losing energy talking to them. Like, it's almost like I come in with energy and I feel like I leave with less energy because like I get excited and I get activated by a bias towards action. Like when Mark and I talk about something and we can go from like discussing it to like literally having it done within 10 minutes, I'm like, I love working with Mark, right? But if every time I went to Mark, I'm like, man, like cool as a cucumber. I mean, he is cool, like calm and objective, but like he also has the bias towards action to like move fast. So I just wanted to share, like sometimes I've never defined myself as like that kind of like cool as a cucumber person. I almost like pride myself on being a little bit more responsive, reactive, fast moving. And I think I can see how that's a negative, but that has a shadow side too. Cause like sometimes I wish I could be a little bit more. Yeah, but I think the thing that I know about you, Ben, is that you are being very intentional about how you design your life. And that is because you have a clear north star and purpose about why you're doing it. And so the, the way that you say I'm managing my calendar is really, you have built capacity in your life to do the things that are important to you because you have clarity in that star. And so that's, that's sort of what I admire about you and watching the two of you together, honestly, is this like clarity about what you're doing. And that feels like capacity to me. Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. Like, Ben, I feel like, to me, you come across as like a very high capacity person. And I almost see like the responsiveness is like, almost like orthogonal to capacity. But I feel like also like, what gives I think what gives you that a lot of the capacity is like, you're really good at setting boundaries. And I think that also kind of like, allows you to operate how you want. And you're very clear and good about communicating that with others, too, which I think kind of goes back to, to saying no. And which, so yeah, I think it's more of like the energy level of excitement. I think also, like, I mean, I think a lot of the execs, I mean, I think there's I've experienced, I know what you mean, like, I've experienced that, too. I think maybe the difference, like sometimes founders a little bit different, because I think they bias fraction, and they don't really care. But I think a lot of these executives, like, that's how they've almost like, that's a skill that I had to build, because they know they have a lot of people under them. So like, they have to be slower, because they know like, the trickle effects of their decisions can be can be quite big, right? Like the second degree of magnitude. So I think that's almost, in a way, like a feature, not a bug. But I'm sure like founders will probably disagree with like, hey, why are things not happening? Often, more of more faster. But one comment I wanted to make to that, that actually, I've never made the connection till you said it, Molly is the connection with agency and capacity. Because that's so true. Like, I was reflecting, like, I'm probably doing way more things now than I was maybe when I was in a full time role in terms of like, productivity, even like, just like, sheer amount of work. I see you Mark, you're doing a lot of things. Yeah. But, but I actually like, feel like, I don't feel like my capacity, like, I mean, Brian, it's funny, because right now, as I'm saying that, like, I'm in a moment where like, my capacity is like, about to explode. And, but that doesn't happen, that doesn't happen often, like that maybe happens like a couple times a year. And otherwise, I feel like very, very calm and stable. And I think a big part of it is, because again, like, I feel like a lot of the things that are happening in my life are controlled by me, and I have full, like, control over the controllables. And I've gotten really good at like, kind of letting go of like, worrying about the things that I cannot control. And I think now, like, Brian think capacity, because I have like this artificial kind of deadline that I've set into the world. And I feel like now it's like, I lost control over it. So I'm like, oh, shit, like, but but I, but I have like this commitments that I have to other people. These are really the only times over the last, I mean, we've been working so much together for two years now, right? Like, I've kind of seen you through cycles, I have to say, like, the only times where I see you even remotely come off as like, overwhelmed, is these matching periods. And it's just fascinating. Because we do a lot of what I would consider high stakes stuff with, I mean, it's fun, but like high stakes stuff with the podcast. And then the insider loop stuff is, you know, I know we have a lot of plans. And we really are taking that super seriously and giving it a lot of our energy. But I've never seen you get like that with it. So it's just a very interesting to observe, like, well, because you do have agency, like it's you're you are your own boss. It's not like there's a difference in agency, you have arguably even more agency with Supra than with insider loops. And yet, there's these other variables, is it? I'm just so curious about that. Yeah, I mean, I think part of it, what makes this decision, and very high stakes is that it's, it's very hard to reverse, like, I think a lot of the things that we do are pretty reversible. But when you're matching people with groups, right, like, and it's like this puzzle that like moving people around is way more difficult, especially like, given how the program is designed, like the first session is optimized for and building connection, right? So it's almost like, if that doesn't happen, then you have to kind of go back to the drawing piece. And there's like 70 people or 80 people that are part of that puzzle. So and it's one of those decisions that feels very hard to reverse. And also, it's kind of like the first experience that people have with the program. So it almost feels like that's like the product. And like 80% of that experience is probably going to be determined by the decision that I'm making in this point in time. And it's time bound, because I've made the commitment that these groups are going to be done by this date. And I think so it's part of the commitment date. But also, I think it's like the pressure that I put on myself of like, hey, I need to deliver because that's what people that's the promise that I had. And also knowing that it's going to be hard to to so when you do it really well, right? What happens? And what happens to myself or to your experience to the groups? Or what is what happens in a group when you when you do really good matching? Yeah, I mean, like the side effects, I'll get a message from someone me that, hey, like, I just had an incredible session, I feel like I got much with a group of people that are going through the exact same things. I'm cannot wait to keep getting to know these people better, and spending more time together. And, and, you know, it's one of those things I hate, like, I didn't know I needed it so much until I found this fuel. So yeah, so it's an indicator that the connections between the people are starting to flourish. Yeah, yeah. And then they kind of almost like we're surprised, like how similar everyone is, and how they're like, their challenges are not unique. And they're just like also like excited to learn from this group of people that they just met. How much of the signal that kind of just curious, I'm so curious, we never thought about this. But like, obviously, every one of these cohorts as a coach, right? Like you're you're matching a facility. I mean, would you call them a facilitator or a coach? What's the term you're using now? I think facilitator. So yeah, coach, I think it's how high signal would it be for the coaches to be telling you how they think the group like after the first session, if every coach reported back to you be like, here's, I think you nailed it versus like, I think some things are off. Like, do you how high signal is that relative to what the people within the group tell you? And it depends, right? It depends on like, how many times someone has done it, like, it's kind of similar to coaching, right? Like, if it's like, if you've been a member of a group, you know, exactly how it felt. Also, the hard part about the coach is that like, in the first session, you're doing a little bit of more of like, the heavy lifting, too. So it's hard to be like, present of how things are going, while also feeling hey, like, you have to perform and make sure that this like, you kind of create that environment. And but I think people that have done it enough times, like, just know, like, I think, and I maybe it's not like an intellectual head thing. But like, in the gut feeling of a hey, like, someone went really deep, or a few people were nodding, and you could just, you can sense the energy. So I think you don't you don't record the sessions at all. And so it's not like you could use transcripts or recordings to kind of figure out how the sessions are going. So yeah, it's, it's all kind of like happening off off the record. And so you're relying on a bunch of second hand reports on like, what the quality was. And you're trying to play this like impossible game of chess in your head to get all these people into some experience and not even have perfect visibility into the reality of what actually happens at the end. Like, that, like, it's almost like you're missing these feedback loops that can help you get some feedback from people about like, they're very perfect feedback loops. Yeah, we share a feedback form. And not everyone completes it. But I would say like, you know, for 40 50% people completed. But yeah, anyways, I didn't want to turn that into like a marketing session. But yeah, it's, it's, it was just like an interesting observation that I feel like the agency and capacity go hand in hand. I think the other thing that I've noticed is like noticing what gives you energy and what, what like drains energy. And I think actually, like something that's like I learned from Ben, a lot is, I used to have like a lot more tolerance for doing things that were like, not that energizing, because I was like, Oh, like, that's a path that I chose. Like, I'm a founder, like, there's, you're gonna have to eat some glass. And that's part of the job. And I think to some extent, it's true. But I think there's actually a lot of things that are not true that I can change. And I think Ben is way more like sensitive to it. He's like, Wait, why are we doing this? Like, this is a waste of time, or I hate doing this, or this is like messing with my vibe. And I was like, Oh, yeah, you're right. Like, let's get rid of it. And I feel like the moment I do that, like, like the capacity almost like doubles, because you're like kind of getting rid of like that negative space. So then it's like, you kind of like, it's almost like multiplying the capacity by two almost, right? The way I see it is like a failure state that we've kind of been converging on is creating a job for ourselves that we hate. Right? Like, it's like, it's like the most the biggest failure state ever, when you work for yourself is like to completely screw yourself by creating a reality that you don't enjoy. And you were in the driver's seat the whole time. And I don't think anyone gets there overnight. It's like a series of decisions. It's like hundreds of small decisions that I think get you to that point where you look around and you're like, I freaking hate this place that I don't like my calendar. Yeah, right. So the way I I mean, I've never connected the dots on that mark. But like that, when you were just describing my sensitivity to doing things I don't like, like we're spending my time on things that drain my energy. If it's like a one time thing, sometimes you just have to do it. But like, if it's like, there's a part of the ritual or the part of the process, things that that habits that are not enjoyable, or they're not playing our superpowers, and you just like, not only accept them, but you kind of like embrace them as like the necessary cost of just like doing whatever you need to do to get to where you want to go. Then I do believe it's like all of those decisions over time are what get you to a point where you look around and you're like, I don't like this, you know, the prison I've built for myself. And the flip side of that is, if you make all of the decisions from a place of like, what gives me energy? What do I want to do more of? What do I want to say yes to? How do I double down on my superpowers, like all that stuff, you find yourself in a place that in my head just looks a lot more like a fun playground of some kind. And then you know, you get to play the game, like every day, you're playing the game that you've chosen to play and level, you're motivated to level up, because you know that by leveling up, you get to keep playing this game you enjoy. I mean, that's the great thing about being able to design your life in, you know, I'd say, for the three of us choosing the paths that we have. But it also comes out for people working in leadership jobs in house, right? Like they wake up and they look around and they're like, Oh, I've achieved SVP of product. I actually hate the work of SVP of product. And that's where you see people going back to like the super I.C. roles and, and things like that. And it takes a lot of courage to make that choice, right? Like, you've built this whole reputation and this whole career to like, identity, you know, climb this ladder, and then you get there and you're like, wait, I don't love it here. I don't love going to the board meetings. I don't, you know, I don't love sitting on the C team meetings, I just want to build product. Like, I've talked with so many people that that's their, that's their path. And, you know, that's another if we if we come all the way back to where we started the conversation, and the climate right now, a lot of people's consternation is, well, I've been building this career with this idea of what the ladder is going to be. And now somebody broke the ladder, and we don't actually know if it's going to be a rope ladder, or, you know, expanding ladder, what's going to happen next. And so that ability to be flexible in your thinking, and adaptable to the environment is really important in today's world. Yeah, it's almost like you gotta shatter your ego and identity in a weird way, right? And like, kind of and then kind of like find some humility of like, oh, shit, like, I need to go back and be a beginner. And that's a lot of a lot of things that are really hard all in a row, right? I agree. The ego thing is kind of tricky. I do think I suspect deep down, like people that have the confidence to bet on themselves have like a generally healthy ego, because like, it's kind of hard to bet on yourself if you don't. But I was talking to someone recently, and as we're starting to wrap up here, we're talking about how like, the old world, or the for a lot of us, like the traditional way of thinking about career development and growth was observing kind of these like visible paths externally, like you're just talking about the ladders. And, and those paths were based on data points of other people, role models, success stories, what other people doing. And there's like this kind of like Cambrian explosion of stories right now and like different, like it's like, and even in the moment you even think a story is true, it kind of just like moves by really quickly. And there's a new story. And so I was I had this like, imagery, I think a lot of images, imagery, and then like, I had this picture, like Spider Man, shooting his web, like this building, and then the building just like crumbles. And there's like another building. And it's like, so you keep trying to anchor yourself to these different, you know, narratives or ideas of what the future is going to be. And they keep kind of like changing weekly at this point. Right. And so I, where I'm kind of coming back to, and why, and again, just full circle on why I think coaching is more important than ever is because I think it's really important for people. And I tell this to myself all the time to anchor my path, not to external ideas of what is possible or what other people are doing. And to really look inside. It's kind of counterintuitive. How can I move forward in the world towards like a destination by just looking inside. But I think if you look inside, there's going to be these feelings we've talked about, and you're going to be sensitizing yourself, like we've talked about to what gives you energy and takes away energy. And if, and those are actually helpful. It's like instead of needing a path, all you need is like arrows go towards here, go towards there, go like one day at a time. Right. Like go here, go there. Don't go there. Danger. You're having fun doing. Right. Yeah. I think, I think that, so I tell people like, it's kind of a whole new way of looking at the world for a lot of people that never had that before. But I think it kind of is the only answer I can come up with for what's like a sustainable way of approaching and increasing a world that's evolving at an accelerating rate is like you have to kind of ground yourself to like something that is more in front of you. Sorry. I did that so that I didn't forget to, didn't ramble. Thank you for listening to me and sorry for, we can edit out that, that little alarm clock if possible. But anyways, we should keep it. Mark, I'm trying, talk about intentionality. I'm trying, I literally got one of these little timer boxes. And so I'm trying to use that as a way of grounding myself in, in being present. Cause I noticed that even like checking my calendar is a form of distraction. Even checking the clock is a form of distraction. So are you, are you going to hang out with us? Is that what's happening here? No, that was, that was, that was the, that was the clock for starting to wrap up and ask Molly, how people can learn more about what she's thinking about and how the audience can potentially be helpful. Great. So the primary place to find me is on LinkedIn, or you can check out my website, which is productcraft.works. And then I also very recently launched a sub stack. If people want to find me there, I'm going to be publishing more and more writing. I've got one, one article up so far, but that's an early one. Amazing. We'll link all those things on our episode. And yeah, if people want to be helpful, just check out those resources. Obviously, you know, every coaching business runs on referrals. So if you know a coaching or a product leader who could use some coaching, or they're just really curious about what it might be like to be coached, I'd really love to have a conversation. Like everything, like I mentioned, just starts with a conversation between people and see how the relationship can evolve from there. And just one quick follow up on that. If so, do you have like a sweet spot as far as like, stage of company, size of company? The company doesn't matter so much to me. It's more about are you somebody who's really interested in being, you know, the best leader that you can be. And geographically, I'd say, you know, US time zones work better just because I'm in the Pacific. Amazing. I cannot recommend Molly enough. I've been lucky to sit in a few group sessions where I've seen her ask questions to fellow participants. She's going to pick up a super group. Oh, that's amazing. I didn't know that. I love it. Those people are lucky to have you. Yeah, I completely agree. Amazing. So with that, we've gone into our exciting gratitude corner. So Molly, you've had an incredible career as a product leader, and now as an incredible coach. Yeah, I wanted just to give you an opportunity to maybe name one or two people that have played a key role in that journey. Could be in the beginning, could be later stages. First and foremost, I am forever grateful to my husband, Noah, who is an amazing partner, but also has been super supportive in me exploring this new fascination with coaching and how I'm building my business. And so always grateful for his support. And then more broadly, I would say, I want to name Mariah DeLeon, who was the chief people officer at one of my first jobs. And she has been a mentor to me for over two decades now. And she's the first person who really helped me understand leadership from a human perspective. And her quote that I tend to quote from all the time is, it's not about what you do. It's also about how you do it. And so I'm always grateful to those, those lessons that she's had for me. And I'm going to cheat and I'm going to put one more. And I'm going to be grateful to you too. And not just because you had me on your podcast, because thanks very much. But because of the way that you're building in public and showing people this way of leadership, which is really aligned with values and supporting each other. And I have, I feel like I've had a front row seat since we were in that super group two years ago to watching the evolution of how you've been driving your business and your partnership. And it's really been beautiful to watch. So thank you. Wow. I'm getting, I was not expecting that. Thank you. That might be a first. That means a lot. Thank you. Or thank you for thanking us. You're welcome. I don't know. What's the right response? I'm touched. I'm touched. That's, that's how we frame it. Yeah. It's, it's been a really cool full circle moment, this conversation, and I'm sure it'll be the first of many. I feel like I'm craving like another hour. I feel like we're just getting started, but anyways, we have something to look forward to now. And I think that's a wrap. Thank you so much. Thanks so much, Molly. Amazing. All right. So we can, do you want to...