#127: What we learned from hiring dozens of people in this market | Jori Bell (VP, Core Experience @ Hampton)

All right. We're live. Jory Bell. Welcome back on the podcast. Thanks for having me. I loved our last conversation. I've actually re-listened to it probably twice since we recorded. I think it's been about a year. And what I loved is it was just like a very good kind of encapsulation of that moment that you were in, kind of being on your own path outside of the traditional path. And it's just been so cool to kind of watch how I, by no means do I think what you're doing right now is traditional either, but kind of interesting to see, to follow your journey back into being, being kind of like gainfully employed, let's say. Yeah. Being on a team. Yeah. Being on a team. That's a really good way to put it. And we were chatting, you were chatting recently and I told you that Mark and I are looking to do a, you know, kind of really are just curiosities pulling us to explore more of what's happening right now in the job market world, the hiring practices. I think it's changing really fast. You said, Hey, I have an interesting perspective. Like I'm seeing some stuff that we're learning about hiring in this market. I'm seeing some stuff that people that I'm helping navigate the market are learning. So we just wanted to bring you on and have a good conversation between three friends. Yeah. Awesome. So let's start with, yeah, let's start with the kind of like, what would you describe as your main, you know, perspectives on this current market? Like, you know, obviously I mentioned one as someone who's maybe hiring, but I just love to hear in your words, like all the different vantage points or the different hats that you're wearing that are kind of giving you a perspective at the moment. Yeah. So I lead a team at Hampton. Hampton is a network for high growth founders. I lead the core experience at Hampton, which are groups for founders who need a place to bring their hardest business and personal challenges. So think of it kind of like a coaching space for founders. So I lead a team here, so I've done a lot of hiring. I've seen a lot of hiring at Hampton over the past year since I've been here. And I also am a product coach and I work with a lot of product leaders. Not necessarily in the nitty gritty of interviewing, but a little bit more in the existential space of what am I doing? What is this market? How do I evolve with product, with the AI of it all? So I'm also seeing that individual or like candidate perspective a bit more of like, I said, the philosophical rather than like the tactical. So I kind of bring both sides of that. And then I think I have my own perspective is like, what is my evolution as a product leader through all of this? So I have lots of thoughts there too. Do you also help the founders that are in the Hampton groups think through maybe their hiring kind of like philosophy and stuff like that or not as much? So we're not necessarily privy because those are actually confidential spaces. But I can imagine hiring and chatter around how to staff up companies comes up a lot if I had to guess. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Marc. Yeah. I'm curious because yeah, I think you have a very interesting almost like duality in the way you see the market, right? Like you work with these really talented product leaders that are considering, hey, like, what do I do with my life? And at the same time, you're also hiring for people from like the lenses of the hiring managers. I'm curious, like, maybe how are you using what you're learning in those coaching calls of like kind of like that almost existential hanks to the way you think about hiring and the way you kind of have this conversation with those people? Like, is that influencing that at all? It definitely is. Like, I think this is a very particular moment and maybe that's, I don't know, kind of cliche to say because there's always something that's going to happen or something new, but there's a lot of existential dread, a lot of confusion and a lot of fear, which I'm sure you talk about a lot. And I think there's a way to kind of get sunk by that. And then there's a way to like take that as an opportunity and figure out, OK, how do I carve myself and my path in this new world? So there's like this it comes from the drama triangle, which is like this conscious leadership framework. There's I can be a victim to what's happening to me with this market, or I can be a creator and figure out how do I think through. You know what this means for me, where it aligns with the business needs, my personal needs and alignment, you know, all those different pieces. And so I think when I know like when I am coaching, I am trying to bring people into the creator headspace. So like, what can I do about this? And how do I think about myself in the context of opportunity versus everything happening to me? And then like the hiring side of things, I am most excited and eager to look for candidates who are in that creator headspace, thinking through how do I take what's around me and build my future versus being scared or reluctant or just against moving forward in a direction that this world is taking us in, if that makes sense. Yeah, what I'm hearing is almost kind of this scarce, I don't want to say scarcity mindset, but like maybe fear based mindset that is like a turnoff as a hiring manager right now because it's like, you know, the tides are shifting, things are moving around, there's a lot of opportunity in the chaos and you kind of want to bring people in who are excited about that opportunity, they see the potential to come out stronger, maybe even than they were before. Now, one thing I'm curious about, an idea I've been playing with is like, I have this theory that like the resume is becoming, like there's some people whose resumes is a very strong asset in this market, because maybe they've been working, like if they're going for an AI PM role, and they happen to be early into doing like machine learning PMing or AI PMing, those people's resume, I think, is actually an asset going for like those types of roles. But for a lot of people that don't have a perfect story being told to their resume, their resume can be maybe like a distraction or a liability. And instead, some kind of like proof of work is actually the strongest asset that those people can bring to hiring managers, because it's like, I know how to do the job. Like, I'm the perfect person to do the job, my resume might not tell that story fully. I'd just love to get your reactions to that. Like, how is how you're looking at like resume and past experience kind of connected to that mindset that you described? And is there any connection? The things that come to mind for me is like, you know, I have benefited from having brand names on my resume, like, I'm going to say that, like, very bluntly. And I think that gives candidates a leg up. But I think to your point in this world, that's not enough anymore. I think it can help and open doors and bring connections and give you some credibility, whether that's like legitimate credibility or not. I think it's we're in a world where it's like, what's beyond that resume? And what more do you have there? And this is kind of like the question I coach people around when they give me their tell me about yourself, or we work through questions. And I'm like, what makes you unique? And I don't believe anything on a resume can make you unique. I think it's how you storytell. I think it's the difference that you made in leading a project. It's the if you weren't there, this wouldn't have happened kind of story. So I think like the storytelling piece and the unique positioning of you is much more compelling than your resume. I think a resume gets you in the door, as it always has. But more than ever, it is not a stopgap and is not the thing that's going to seal the deal. Hmm. I don't know if that answered. Yeah. And it sounds like, so what I'm hearing just to play it back is, you know, the resume is still kind of like that first gate of like, do I want to talk to this person, yes or no? Like is there, might there be something interesting here that once we want to have like maybe the first conversation. But then the critical thing is like, once you're in the conversation, to you, like how you see who is that creator, like mindset versus victim mindset, and whether that person maybe has what it takes to the role is like the way they're able to tell their story and the way they're able to like have that self-awareness of like, hey, here's where I bring the value in the orgs that I join. And I'm curious, like from your perspective, like, you know, you probably talked to a ton of people in the last year, like what are the key components of like a really good like story that you're like, huh, like this person really gets it? Yeah. So before I answer that, I just want to double back on sometimes some of the bigger names, there are more restrictions around AI use and opportunity and creators. So the, you're not allowed to use certain things, you're only allowed to use this tool, you know? So I think I actually see opportunity or in creation, like happening more in companies that are smaller, that don't have as much regulation. So I wanted to note that, that, that to kind of come back to that original question, that sometimes the paradox is like, okay, you have a brand name, but you've actually not been able to really use these tools in a way because you're quite restricted because it's such a big company. So I think that's actually really interesting and something I've observed with a lot of my coaching clients. Actually, can I ask a quick follow up there? And that's a really good point, like, like those big companies like, you know, are stuck with like Microsoft Copilot and like, you know, they're like five models like behind basically, right? They don't even know what they can do. They're going to connect all the other tools, they're going to have access to MCPs. So is there anything that those people like can do to put in their resume that'd be like, hey, like, yes, I'm maybe stuck in this organization where maybe I don't really have the agency to change how we work, but is there a sign, like, is there anything that they can do to signal about like, I tinker on the weekends or I have side projects? Like, is it just like as easy as like maybe like adding like a GitHub, like link to their resume? Well, yeah, I think it, listen, I think being able to have, if you have the luxury of time to be able to explore and do side projects, like, of course, that's always something that I recommend. But when people are interviewing to, you know, it's like these were my constraints. I love, love the star framework because it's just so basic. But the extension of the star framework to me is like the hypothetical at the end, like I was constrained. We didn't launch this thing. It ended up shutting down in the absence of being able to do the thing I wanted to do. Here's what I would have wanted to do. And I really like that as like an extension because it's not just, well, this project was great, but it shut down. It's like this project was great and it shut down. But let me tell you, here are the three things I would have done if I was able to use the right tools. I got the approval to do X, Y and Z. And so I like kind of extending that and there's the tinkering approach, but I think there's also about how do I, how do I think strategically about what I would do if I was able to do certain things at the company or what are the small ways that I can make a difference to start changing the culture. In February or March, I really got on the co-work train. I think I was messaging Ben a lot about this and I was like, oh my God, I don't know anything and this is so overwhelming and I'm like technical compared to a lot of people that I work with. And so I started hosting like a power hour for the company and I just said, come bring your projects or bring your questions and let's just start building a culture where we start demoing and showcasing. And I wasn't necessarily changing anything fundamentally, but I'm like, let me create a space and a culture where we're starting to talk about these things and people can ask questions or people can come and feel like, I don't even know where to start. I don't know how to use Cloud. I don't know how to use, let alone co-work. And so I think there are creative ways and things between not doing anything or tinkering on the weekends. Like what are the small things you can infuse? And that's like a perfect example of just like, here's like a little something that I can bring just so it's in the conversation. And what comes of that? Who knows? More people start building, it becomes a default for other people rather than I have to have launched a product natively with AI or whatever it might be. Yeah. By the way, before we get to Mark's question, just realizing when we're talking about resumes, in my mind there's like resumes and LinkedIn profiles and kind of like historically they were almost like telling the same story in two different places to some degree. And we recently had Chris Lee, one of the super members who's like also doing product recruiting. And he said the first artifact that he looks at is the LinkedIn profile these days, not necessarily the resume, but it's good to have the resume to share internally or something. Do you also find LinkedIn is increasingly becoming your kind of like first place to like evaluate people before determining whether you want to have a chat? Yes. To me, LinkedIn is the quickest, easiest public thing that I can see. And I always privilege connections when I'm hiring too. So like I'm very rarely like I'm, and we can talk about more, you know, like how, how I hire and how I think about all of that, but it's like the quickest place to get connected to someone. And so that's the first thing you see. And if someone's vouching or someone's referring, it usually leads to a conversation and then the resume becomes secondary. So like technically speaking, the resume sometimes doesn't even get a view until much later on. Got it. Mark, can you, can you, did, did the sidebar question get answered? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Super helpful. And no, my question was like, yeah, it sounds like the, the way someone tells their story is such a important part of like, maybe like that first like screen or hiring manager call on it. There's clearly like an art of doing it well. Some kids like me, what have you learned from like, what is a really good like story of you, of a story of me and like, yeah, like narrative and elements that you think kind of make it very compelling and you're like, okay, cool. Like I want to continue talking to this person. Yeah. I feel like story, it's, it's a little similar to marketing and, and advertising. And to me it's, it's like the headline and the punchy language and kind of figuring out what resonates. And I work obviously very closely with Sam Parr now, who's like such a great writer. And so he's influenced a lot of like how I think about communicating not just with customers, but like with everyone, like what's the headline, what's going to pull you in, what's going to draw you in. And a lot of that is also informed by the media that we're consuming. Like we're so used to like these like quick punchy, get to the like compelling thing right away. But in the context of hiring, you know, one of the things I, I often fail to see people nail, fail to see people now is like, why you, like why it could be, you know, there's so many other people who could do this and why is this such a perfect fit? Why are you the right person? And like that, that differentiator that's compelling enough to drive a story. I think a lot of people lean on a lot of boilerplate, generic product language. Like I like helping customers and solving complex problems. And I'm like, yeah, we all do, but like, why, why are you? And so I often... But is it, why are you for this specifically? Why are you for this? Yes. And I think it's not often obvious to people. And so sometimes I can make people uncomfortable because I'm like, but tell me why, but tell me why, but make it more specific. But I often think it's a failure of like not necessarily really thinking that through of like why this is such a slam dunk for you to be applying and being in this role versus someone else. And I think that's kind of like one of the best pieces of storytelling is like, that's going to grip people. And I think the other thing, and I'm kind of like adjacent, like how do you figure out why you? I think having a lot of conversations, not necessarily in like a recruiter context, but with former colleagues or just discovery, networking calls, like practicing what comes up and seeing what people are like latching onto. About your story you mean? About your story. Like, oh my God, tell me more about that. That sounds so interesting. Or like sometimes if you don't know what that unique differentiator is, like go learn about it and go have conversations and see where people are like really grasping to your story, want to hear more versus things that they're not. Do you think? Yeah. No, that's such a good push. Like, I don't think I've ever actually asked a friend to let me tell them my story in preparation for interviews and have them ask me what they find most interesting. If I'm listening to this and I'm thinking about taking you up on that push, do you think it's helpful to like prime the friend who's doing you the favor by being like, hey, could you put on the hiring hat? Like imagine you're hiring for this role and like literally send them the JD, have them look up the company and ask them to almost like put on the glasses of the hiring manager who's going to be listening to their story and ask the questions through that lens. Or would your advice be to actually like, don't do that yet. You just want to kind of understand regardless, like agnostic of the role you're going for, what's interesting about your story and in the, in a vacuum. I feel like I should say the recruiter hat one, but part of me is like, we're humans and we like hearing, we like having real conversations. And even if I'm a recruiter, maybe I'm looking and scanning for certain buzzwords, but what's going to pull me is going to pull me whether I'm recruiting or not. And so part of me is like going blind and see what you come up with because you might be surprised. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, I think you probably both have heard of the Never Search Alone book and community. But one of their key concepts of the book is this concept of it's candidate market fit. And one of the like advice that they have is like, even before you started the search, like actually like talk to like a few friends, talk to a bunch of like old managers, coworkers, and instead of like getting into like that, like recruiters, like head is like, think about it as like almost kind of like high level, like product discovery work, right? Be like, Hey, like, what was the thing that you appreciate about me the most? Like, what were my strengths or my weaknesses? What like environments did you see me thrive? Right. And I think if you have enough, I mean, basically continue having those conversations until you start to see like a clear convergence of like skill sets, environments, and then kind of take that and be like, Okay, cool. Like what are some companies that maybe fit that culture or that would create those conditions for me to thrive basically? Totally. And I feel like we talked a bit about this last time where a lot of people are not thinking about the things that light them up and the things they're excited about and the things they want to work on. And I cannot urge enough to pause before you just start sending a million applications and you're juggling and preparing for all these calls and unsure of, well, what do you really want to do? And so that's actually one of the things I start with when I'm coaching people. I'm like, what do you love about product or what do you not love? Like, when are you in your groove? And I find that a lot of people haven't necessarily done that reflection. And that reflection is so important going into any kind of recruiting or hiring process so that you can really speak and articulate to the why you of it all. One follow-up I have to this is like, so I totally agree with kind of figuring out what's interesting about your story, figuring out where the candidate market fit might be. And Mark, I would say company is a good attribute, like what kind of company, but also the role. Because I think the wrong role at the right company, you might not be set up for success too. Yeah. And what I wanted to ask you about, Jory, is I think a lot of hiring right now is almost we talked a little bit in the before about how you're seeing specialization becoming more important in hiring. And so when someone's telling you their story, do you get like this ding, ding, ding, I'm excited about this candidate if it sounds like they've done the job before, like that kind of specialization? Or is it more about they've never done this job before, but there's something about their story that sounds like the skills that they have will be really translatable to this job. I'm just kind of curious to connect the dots between like the storytelling and the roles becoming more specialized. If in theory, no one's ever done that job before, like, how can they stand out? Yeah, I think it's helpful to have someone who's done the job before. And my caveat is everything's changing right now. And so what's most interesting to me is someone who can demonstrate adaptability, agility, and curiosity. and curiosity about, okay, I've done product, I've excelled at this for so many years or whatever the role might be, but everything's changing and I'm gonna embrace that and I'm going to ride in that ambiguity when I figure that out. Because I think I've seen people fail or I've seen the things just not work out when people don't know how to integrate and live alongside this moment in time of I don't know how to use these tools, but I'm gonna figure out a way to incorporate and embrace them in some way versus, well, this is how I've always done it. So to me, the growth mindset is probably the most important. And sometimes having done the job before can be a hindrance to that. What about, I'm curious, what about, for example, the excitement to work at the particular company or the particular space, right? The classic, when they interview venture capitalists or venture investors, they'll be like, hey, what kind of funder do you want to invest in, right? And usually it's like, the question of the flavor is like, oh, you could invest in someone who has a lot of experience, or like a second or third time funder, you could invest in, I don't know, like someone who's super smart or you can invest in someone who just really, really wants it, right? Who's like hungry. And they're always like, oh, I want to pick that person who's like really, really hungry. So it's like, maybe that translates to kind of when you're hiring as well. I will say it's like, that's how I got a job once. Like, I will say that I was like, I will mop the floors at this company because I'm like so obsessed. It was SoundCloud many years ago. Like I was just such a fangirl and I let that show very deeply and I was in product, but I was moving from like media to consumer tech and it was a bit of like a leap in terms of the types of work that I was doing and the types of teams and my capabilities. But I was like, I am ride or die and I feel like that played a really big role in securing it. I mean, I can't confirm, I don't know. But I just- Do you think that's more applicable for like early career like advice then? I think it was very helpful for like early career. I think probably changes a little bit as you get more senior. Yeah, like an executive that says, I'll mop the floors to work here. It's probably not gonna like land as well. Probably a red flag. Big red flag. Yeah. That's a good question. Yeah. Yeah, no, excuse me if I'm a little slow today, but I'm trying to still find the connection in my head between like the increasing specialization of the roles with the premium value you're clearly placing on what I would consider generalist skill sets like adaptability and curiosity. So is it that you want someone who has kind of like almost like the historical experience? It's almost like they're as qualified as anyone on paper and then, and they have these additional qualities. You're not saying these qualities override any sort of historical specialization. Correct. I think, I mean, it depends on the level too and like exactly what you're hiring for. I think it can be more costly to hire someone who's like completely changing functions. So I think having that baseline is important. But my point is the baseline isn't the only thing because of the situation we're in right now. I don't wanna hire someone who's done the job before and who is rigid around, this is how product is done because that's gonna set us up in a bad situation. Like knowing, particularly being at a company that's embracing a lot of the new tools very aggressively. So it's a good baseline, but it's to be paired with the curiosity and the LinkedIn creator approach around all the new tools. Got it. Okay, I have a followup on that, Mark, if you don't mind. So just to kind of help me flesh it out in my head a little, let's imagine you're looking, and this is hopefully not too abstract, but let's imagine you're looking at 10 different LinkedIns for someone. And let's say on, as far as like the work experience, let's just imagine roughly same number of years of work experience that's relevant. But basically there's other things they can, other levers they can pull on their LinkedIn to potentially convey to you that they are not rigid, that they are embracing the current moment, that they're excited to evolve their craft. Have you found any signals on LinkedIns that like would make some of those LinkedIns stand out relative to the rest before having a conversation? I think any kind of personal contact like on LinkedIn so not necessarily the LinkedIn page. I think I'm not necessarily looking at LinkedIn, like I'm looking, I'm scanning LinkedIn. Okay, like where have they been just from a sense of it, but their ability, either whether it's a connection or someone who's not connected to me and their ability to articulate very quickly over LinkedIn or whatever platform and connect with me will give you a leg up in my view. Yeah. Can you give an example of, without naming any individuals or like anything that would divulge confidentiality, but something you've seen where someone's done this well that kind of caught your attention or, you know, are you excited to talk to them? Yeah, like posted roles or I've like boosted roles before and like having people write non-boilerplate language to kind of connect, kind of like, oh, this is why this is so good for me right now or this is why this person would be so perfect right now versus this job is interesting, I'd love to chat, where do I apply? Like ignore, you know, versus wow, this person read what I wrote, did their research and I used to feel this way too, like when people would do outreach for like mentorship or anything like that. Hey, like, can we just connect versus, hey, I read this post, it really resonated with me, it seems like our backgrounds are really aligned. Like going, showing that you took the time and this isn't even like a adaptability thing, this is like a communications thing where it's like someone took the time to articulate and think about, especially in the world where we don't write all our communications anymore, to really think about, I wanna make sure to catch this person's eye, that is the person I'm interested in. And so I think, you know, whether I'm hiring for roles or we hire moderators to lead, you know, I get a lot of communications that come inbound and I think, again, like coming back to this concept like of a headline and like being able to articulate your why very clearly and succinctly in a sea of communications and crap on LinkedIn is much more important to me than what your actual LinkedIn says. Yeah, cool, that makes total sense. Yeah, it's so surprising that it's so hard. It's so rare. Yeah, like Ben and I probably get a lot of messages, hey, like, do you know anyone at this company or this? And I'm like, I don't really wanna like answer like 95% of those, because like there's no clear, like you need to convince me in that first message that like it's worth using my social capital to even consider this in the first place. A lot of times I'm like, if this person's being lazy with me, like how can I trust them to be like, actually like make me look good when I connect them to someone? So, yeah, it's really surprising in a way. I recently had an example of someone that did this well, not in the context of getting introduced for a job, but for introduction to investors. And this is someone that took my course, built a relationship with me as a student, and then instead of getting another product leadership role, decided to go down the founder path and has been working on something, and then they pinged me and it was just like really well done, like reconnecting, letting me know where they're at with this company, like the thesis, what they validated, and then they've literally identified like a handful of people I'm connected to and were like, would you be open to passing along a note? My response to that, I asked a few questions for myself just to kind of do a little bit of digging on like the traction and stuff, but then I was like, yeah, if you could send me like a forwardable blog, or blurb rather, for each of those people, but I really want you to list out what is it about them that would make them value add. And this person sent me four or five different emails that I reviewed and I was like, wow, this is actually really good, like I was like, I know those people, and then reading that email, I'm like, I can see how that person's experience would translate to what this guy's building, and so I forwarded them and it's like, so anyways, that's the kind of level of effort that is so, it's easy to help someone, and it's also, they're being very mindful, to your point, Mark, of like the social bullets I'm spending, and obviously, like I'm connected to some investors who, if I send them a not credible founding, or investment opportunity, I burn capital, and like I'm, it's a lower signal if they get emails from me. So anyways, you can do that with jobs as well. I just don't see people like, even after like, Mark, I've literally linked people to some resources where we've talked about what goes into like a thoughtful, you know, like I've done a whole session on this, on like multiple sessions on Maven, about like how to get the attention of hiring managers, and what makes for a good forwardable blog, blurb, why do I keep saying blog? And people still don't do it the right way, and then at that point, it's a question of, do I spend the time to like teach them now how to do this the right way, or do I just like ignore it, or do I tell them I'm gonna forward it, but I don't? You know, it's like kind of putting the effort on you, but what you're talking about is totally resonating. That's the headline for me is, if you are needing something from someone, you've gotta do the work, and it is too easy to just lob the ball over the net and hope that the person that you are needing something from is willing to do the work. You've gotta make it dead simple. If you are asking Ben for some great connections of his, make it compelling and worth his time, and do not ask a single thing of him. Hand everything to him on a silver platter. Have it written well, have it be thoughtful. There should be no lift on your part, and I don't think people think like that anymore, and so when you see that, you're like, oh my gosh, someone was actually really intentional in this approach, and that, sadly, is like a differentiator now, which is crazy. I think it's just too easy to be lazy and to ask people to do things for them. Yeah. When someone asks me, it's like, okay, just doing that work that you just described, I think it puts you in the top 2%, and still, you still might have a high likelihood of someone actually wanting to help you, but it's actually not that much extra work to be on the top 0.05%. And what I mean by that is maybe spend an hour on their product, record feedback, create a quick prototype, record yourself, a little more of you walking through the feedback, and then be like, hey, I'm happy to chat more about it. If I got something like that from someone, I'd be like, oh, wow. If they're willing to do this type of work and dedication, they care so much, and they don't even know if something's gonna happen out of it. I can only imagine what they will do once they're in the role, right? And yeah. Yeah, an example, just a low-hanging fruit is Mark and I are not actively hiring publicly right now, but people ask us for things, and people ask us for favors and stuff. And Mark, I don't know about you, but I've gotten zero looms from people that have gone through our website, for example, for Insider Loops, and suggested something we could do better, a way to improve the storytelling or improve our conversion. People don't do that. Something that would be helpful to us. You don't necessarily have to put in the legwork to convince me why I should refer you to this other person, but if you're gonna maybe give some value, add some value, be useful, and then when it's time for you to ask for something, you've already kind of, you should for sure be lowering the friction for me to help you, but you should also be kind of increasing my activation energy to help you. You should make me want to help you more. So that's, but it requires an abundance mindset to do that. You have to be, it requires low ego because you're kind of doing quote unquote free work without being paid for it, but you're making a deposit. I really like how Eric Pozen, a guest in a couple episodes ago, put this. You're making deposits to the trust bank. Yes, I love that. And so when you need something, you're withdrawing. And then I have a bunch of people that I know that are just like negative balance in my trust bank, you know, because they're just asking and asking and asking, and it's not really, it's not even being done well, so I'm kind of less and less likely to help them with every ask, so. Yeah, it's a rarity. And so I think, and I think also you can't do this for every job, which is the point. You should not be, the spray and pray of like, I'm just gonna apply to a million things doesn't work for a reason. That's why doing the work before and figuring out, okay, like which things do I actually wanna put my time and energy into? And then being really thoughtful with those few things versus 50 things. I've had people come to me and they're like, I've applied for like 50 jobs. I'm like. That's your problem. That's your problem. Like what are the two to three companies you really wanna focus in on? Maybe it's even two or maybe, you know, it's sequencing it out. And I think that's a mistake I see a lot is people are just, you know, when people are job searching, they can be frenetic. They're often escaping a bad situation and they're like very eager to get out. And so they just start applying to things. And they do it poorly versus if they chose a couple to focus on, they could really get far and spend the time to be intentional about it. Yeah, it's almost like the people that I see doing that, it almost reminds me of how people are when they're like bookmarking restaurants or pinning something to Pinterest board. It's like, oh, this looks interesting. I'll apply. This looks interesting. I'll apply. You know, it's like, but in reality, you actually wanna run your job search like a sales process, like almost like a high value, high touch, like white glove sales process. Yeah. And you'd never do that with a high touch, white glove sales process. You'd be, every touch point is like super important to get right. But so you learn a lot about people in the job search. You know, not everyone's equally good at this stuff. Like, it's just not. No. So yeah, Mark, go ahead. But I didn't wanna kind of get a little more into like the interview process itself. Yeah. Stuff from Joy's line there. Yeah, yeah. Just one thing that I just wanna wrap, kind of the how to tell the story of me and also like how to make it very specific. Maybe the final question is like how, like what do you think are the key elements that need to like almost land? Like, you know, we talked about like, maybe like similar company size, maybe similar industry, maybe similar specialization, maybe similar kind of growth trajectory. And obviously like, you know, you have the skillsets that it takes and anything else that's important to be like, hey, like there's a good, like the Venn diagram of things that I care are overlapping. I think you have to leave the person excited, honestly. Yeah, the vibe, right? There's like a vibe, like energy thing. Like you have to be, you know, when you're hiring and you've been thinking about doing all these different projects and someone's like, well, if you just did this, you just, I'm like, yeah, oh my God, tell me more. Like, how would you do it? I've been thinking about that too. And you have that like mind meld moment. But I think you have to be excited and you have to like, as a candidate, you have to be excited and thinking about, okay, here are different opportunities and throw some things out there and see. But to me, the most memorable thing is, oh my God, they see me and they see what this role needs and they understand it from the job description, from conversations that they've had. And there's gotta be like that point of connection, which is like very ambiguous, but it's about bringing passion and like excitement and showing that there's that connection, like I said, and mind melding. Oh yeah, like we've been wanting to do that. It's been on our roadmap. We haven't been able to get to it. How would you think about that? And just showing in real time how you would think and partner together, co-create, that leaves like a very, for me, that's left a very exciting taste in my mouth of like, oh my God, that was fun jamming with them for five minutes. Like, I wanna talk to them again. I wanna take a moment before we get back to the episode to tell you about Insider Loops. This is a company that Mark and I started because we just believe this should exist. Companies should be offering candidates the best possible preparation for their loops, yet what they give them is vague and often not very actionable. So we took the matter into our own hands. We've put together well-researched and continuously updated guides for PMs and reviewing at companies like Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, Stripe, DoorDash, and more. If you're getting ready for PM interviews at those companies go over to insiderloops.com and learn more. Now back to the episode. Yeah, the other thing to me that's really important for that vibe and that excitement is like, if I feel like they show up like fully themselves and like fully transparent, like my analogy is like, you know, dating, like I feel like when I go on a date, like I'm so much as like, I feel like they kind of like, not fully like let the guard down and like tell me their deepest secrets, but just like fully like unapologetic show up in a way. And like, I feel like, okay, cool. Like there's some personality that like, I'm getting a sense of who this person is and kind of really makes me more excited because I'm like, okay, I think the number of unknowns here and I'm like the peeling of the onion is gonna be faster than, you know, someone who's like very guarded and just cannot really read anything basically. Yeah, like bringing your authentic self. And I like someone who has opinions, like strong opinions on things versus kind of going in whatever direction the wind is blowing. It's like, what's that unpopular opinion that you might have or, you know, something like that. Something- Strong opinions loosely held. Thank you, thank you. Like something memorable and something that demonstrates your personality, how you might work together. Those are the types of things that leave a connection when you're dating, let alone when you're hiring. And so like, just kind of sinking into that versus pretending to be all buttoned up and perfect. Like that's boring, no one wants that. Yeah, you know, one question I actually like that I've seen, it's not being done as often as I would like, I would have expected it to be more widespread given how good of a question it is, I think. But like when a hiring manager or maybe in another kind of cross-functional interview could ask the candidate to teach them about something that's interesting to them. And so you're kind of taking the game to like a neutral location or even letting the candidate play on their own home court and kind of see like, it's not supposed to be work-related. Some candidates will maybe steer it towards like something that's work-related, but I think the more interesting stuff happens when it's not work-related. And then you can kind of see what does this person look like when they like light up, when they're excited, you know, kind of like a really good way to almost like manufacture a little bit of that energy in a neutral territory. So I agree. I think I actually would take, you know, Joy, I know we mentioned like the vibes piece last but I kind of feel like if the vibes are off all the other stuff won't quite get there. 100%. And so there's like, it's not like a vibe check. It's more of like, I actually kind of feel like the vibe almost maybe is the, it's like almost like the goo that all the data points kind of get meshed into in a way. It's like, you know, if the mesh, if the broth is off, you know, you're not gonna really care how good the chicken is or whatever, right? I don't know if you're- New analogy unlocked. New analogy. But I feel kind of like, yeah, I don't know. And I think the risk for a candidate showing up, it's a big ask for a candidate like that I just wanna acknowledge to show up in the midst of like a stressful job search. Yes. Kind of like loose to some degree, being like, you know, themselves, being vulnerable. Like it's a big ask and I don't wanna like undermine that. But I wanna also, if someone's listening and they're like, yeah, like thanks for saying it. It's not that easy. But I also wanna kind of represent the flip side. So like the downside is I know it's hard and I know it's a big ask and I know you're taking risk by doing it. And it's probably gonna be an extra like draining interview if you're gonna really give it all this energy. Yeah. Knowing how competitive the market is and you're likely not gonna get the job. So it's kind of like a big, it's a big investment. It's a big leap of faith to some degree. But I think the reason it's worth doing it is it's because you're more likely to get the resonating, like you're more likely to resonate with a hiring manager by showing up, you know, fully. So it's like the ROI on the risk is I think worth it even though it's not, I'm acknowledging it's not that easy to get there mentally and emotionally for the interview. Yeah. And like the hinging piece of that is what I've said earlier is connections. Like if someone is co-signing you as a candidate or referring you, like that's like a inherent pre-vibe check. You know, like for like, I know this person, I trust this person, they referred them or I worked with this person. referred them or I worked with this person, you're already like, you started a deficit when you're like meeting someone for the first time, but if someone, if there's some kind of connection, okay, that fills that bucket up a little bit. And now I'm going to go test that further. And do I have any kind of rapport? What does that rapport feel like? Is it hard? Is it easy? Um, so that's why, like, you know, the concept of getting a job through connections is so powerful because it preempts like any vibe check that you do and someone is co-signing the vibe before you even get that first conversation on the books. And the dating analogy there is the introduction to the mutual friend, you know, like that's kind of an example that, yeah. Go ahead, Mark. Or like arranged marriages too. You want to go even, you want to go even farther, but same, same, same, same, same, but different. Um, no, I was saying like, even the most important thing is that you might end up like, yes, like you're in a stressful situation, but then like, you know, you, maybe you were just laid off or you were like go and you had a short stint and, and then you land on a job. And I think if you don't show up like fully, you might end up in the risk of a place that you end up stuck in a culture that you could not be yourself and you could not show up fully. So you just like end up dreading going to work every day. And then at the same time, you have this pressure of like, oh shit, I need to be here for all these two years because I cannot afford to have another short stint. And you're just like then in this like mess that you kind of created. Again, I completely agree with what Ben said, but it's way easier to say that from the distance and a place of looseness rather than, hey, like shit, like I have a short runway and I need to plan something quickly, but I think it is important to think long-term even when it's difficult. Um, Ben, I know you wanted, you were itching on like getting into like other hiring, like learnings. Should we, should we just like transition into like, you know, like I think last time you joined us, you were about to start hiring someone for your team. And since then you've hired a bunch of people. So maybe like we can go into, hey, how, what, what have you learned through that process? How has the, like the loops that you run changed and yeah, like I think that would be super interesting. Yeah. Um, we have made a ton of new hires since the past year that I've spoken with you. Um, personally, like for my team, the best hires, those best hires, the hires have come through connections. So like, that's kind of like why I continue, I bang that drum regardless, but I'm really banging that drum. Cause that's what worked really well. I will say that, um, one of the people I hired listens to this podcast and that's how she kind of learned about, and so there you go. Credit where credit's due. Um, so yeah, I think like the connections have been very powerful. I think like we've really prioritized getting people in person, like on site. I think, you know, I observed like at large, everyone's in different places in terms of remote versus not. And we're like, come to the office, come vibe with us. And we, we have like processes that we run, but often if like things are going well, I call it a clown car where we're just like, okay, you go meet that person, you go meet that person. Um, because we get really excited and we kind of freestyle a little bit and that's approach has worked really well, I would say. Um, it can feel like a little disorganized, but it's just the truth of like, oh my God, I just got a great energy. I really do have five minutes. Can you go meet this person? Um, and so we've really prioritized like in person hiring experiences, which I don't know if that's the norm right now. I actually can't speak generally to that. Um, I think it's happening more. It's happening more. It's definitely back on the rise. So I feel like that's been like really, really powerful. And we've evolved the process, you know, as we go, we're still a small company, so it's not super formal. So we've tried to bring some formality and loops and in different things to our experience. Um, but the most powerful thing I'd say where it's really been helpful is to really just bring people on site and catch the vibe very quickly or not. I have some specifics I want to ask about. So it could be like, you could give short answers or if you have more thoughts, you can do that too. But, um, a couple of things I'm in particular very curious about is, um, your views about take homes. Okay. And secondly, um, the importance, like how you think about setting expectations with people before they come, um, come on site, like what they might expect you're from your perspective, clown car, great vibes, like how much of like what do you actually tell them is going to happen? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on both of those. I think we could probably do a better job at preparing them. Um, I think, I think it was like Stripe I interviewed at like many years ago. And the prep process was so thorough with the recruiter. Like I knew who I was meeting with, what I was talking about, and I was like, this is amazing. It didn't end up getting enrolled, but it was just like, I felt really good as a candidate and like taken care of. Um, so I think I would always, if there's capacity and time, I'd always, uh, lean into preparing people for who they're going to meet. Um, the clown car of it all is I think something where it's, we don't put everyone through that. It's just when someone gets excited and they want people to meet, you know, we'll pull one of the founders in like, come meet this person. I'm really excited about them. Um, and it's like a bonus to see like how they're meeting someone they may not have been preparing to meet, but it's not as a means of throwing anyone off. It's like out of pure excitement. Um, so I really, I do like as a candidate, like having like that kind of preparation, I feel very taken care of, especially because you can feel like such a number and an anonymous, you know, person, one of a million people applying to a role. Um, and in terms of take homes, I think I, I do like take homes, but I don't think they should necessarily be the default. I think they should be a tool. And I think especially as you get more senior into a role to kind of help you see their thinking. Um, and obviously case study interviews, I don't know how popular those still are. Um, they're still pretty popular. Like that's obviously like a way to do it. I think a case study interview is like such a like unique, like art form and like a different experience of like what the product role is. Like you're so rarely like having to design something on the spot. Um, but I can see, you know, it is like a lower lift in terms of you're not preparing any materials ahead of time versus preparing materials ahead of time and, and feeling confident stepping into the room. So I, I don't have like a strong, I kind of, I I'm kind of, I'm kind of conflicted on that by the way. Like why, why I think, I think it's lower lift for the interviewer to run a 45 minute case style interview, but from a, as someone who's been coaching and teaching and training a bunch of people to get ready for them from the candidate perspective and know, knowing how many hours and reps it takes to get comfortable for those interviews, there's a case to be made that the, the take home is like lower lift for candidates than case styles. Yeah, I would agree with that, especially having like done those myself. You have to really like try a lot of different types of them because it's always going to throw you off. You're always going to get a question you weren't preparing for. And like I said, it's like a unique kind of art like question that doesn't, I feel like exist in the real world of like how I do my job versus like preparing a presentation and like talking through, like that might be something that you have to do in your job. I feel like the case study is like really, really different and something you have to study. Yeah, I think the case, the case study to me is kind of the closest thing to like an on the spot standardized test for big tech than it, whereas like a take home presentation is more like an open ended. By the way, can you define, can you define the case study? Like, are you talking about like product sense or are you talking about like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so product sense interviews are a great example of it. A lot of companies do like execution slash analytical thinking interviews. So like Stripe's first round screen is a product sense interview. Meta's first round screen is product sense and analytical thinking, but used to be called execution. Open AI's first round screen is product sense and product execution, which is basically the same as analytical. Yeah. So, you know, we know DoorDash does their first round product screen is called the, they call it the product screen, but it's kind of like an adapted version of a product sense interview. So I think the reason a lot of them do that is because they view it as like a basic, it's, it's a screen for basic competencies that almost like they expect to be universal, agnostic of role at their companies. And it does measure things like your communication skills and your structured thinking and your ability to make assumptions and your ability to run a, run a meeting and to be mindful of the clock. Right? Like there's a lot of meta skills about product management that I think it evaluates, but it does miss obviously. I think, I think it's good at evaluating a floor, but I don't think it's great at like evaluating the ceiling or like, you know, optimizing for like the best person for a role. Yeah. Whereas a presentation, like a really thoughtful take home presentation, especially if it's in the context of the job itself, can really make you be like, wow, this is the perfect person for this job. Or at least like, we're really excited about this person for this job. It's not like, it's not as effective in my opinion as setting a floor. Like I think it's a higher, higher variability exercise is kind of how it is. But I think that's why these companies have those interviews, right? Because like, it's like, it's really easy to calibrate people at scale. It's really easy to have a rubric that everyone can follow. And then it's like, you know, then you can have more people interviewing and in theory, there should be like less variance and less noise, right? Because like, okay, cool. Like there's very clear cuts. I think that's part of what they do it to it's just like, it's part of the pains of like scaling. And that's like a good filtering mechanism for what they need and everyone, every company kind of does their own flavor of it depending on kind of the values and what's important to them. Some of the, there's some universal elements, as you said, Ben, of like kind of keeping the clock, communicating, engaging, assumption, writing, all those things are quite important. Are you pro or anti case study, Mark? I personally like, like if I was running my own company, I probably wouldn't do them. Because like, I just feel like the skill set that you have to do well in those interviews, doesn't necessarily translate to how good you're in the job. And that said, like I, I might change my mind once I reach a scale where I have to like hire more people and I'm like, feel like I'm stuck. But like, if I was like hiring someone for Supra tomorrow, I wouldn't do a case study. Like I would much prefer to do like, like Ben said, like a presentation or a take home because I feel like you just like, you're able to see such a bigger delta and between like the good and the great candidates, because you just have so many more options to go the extra mile because you're not like confined into like a very clear rubric, right? Like you can show, Hey, these people are very proficient in, into like AI and, and they just like build this amazing prototype or, Hey, this person actually spent like 10 hours doing user research, right? Like there's all these different areas to show that you really care and that you're really good and you can get really good leverage. So. The other reason, the other reason I think for our company, Mark, that we would prefer a take home is because we also are trying to not build like a meeting heavy culture. Exactly. Like we don't like to have a lot of meetings and we want to do the minimum amount of like synchronous, like real time communication. So how someone can communicate their thoughts asynchronously to us with like artifacts will carry a lot of weight if it could follow their thinking. Um, whereas actually when I think about a lot of the big tech companies that do the case studies, they actually do have a lot of meetings. Um, so your ability to like think on your feet or run a meeting or manage the clock is more, it's actually more closely associated with like the job. Whereas if we did, if we did case style conversations, that might be the longest they ever spent talking to us is like the 45 minute case discussion. Yeah. So, you know, I don't think we actually care about it that much. And then what I would say, what's interesting, I haven't thought about this before, Mark, but you're talking, what if we scaled, so what if we went from hiring like one or two people a year to like some point hiring a hundred people a year? Would we change our view on this? You know? And I think that's kind of an interesting question because it's not like we would want the culture of the company we built to change because it got bigger. We'd actually want to keep the culture as close to like the culture at now, at inception, I guess as possible, because that's like our preferences as like founders, right? So it's like, you want to build the company to be like your vibe, your culture. And if it gets bigger, you kind of want to find a way to scale that. And so theoretically, if we hired a bunch of incredible people and then those people had got headcount to hire people on their teams, we would probably still want them to evaluate the talent the way we evaluated them when we hired them to some degree, right? Otherwise you start kind of, like if you start to change the way you hire, kind of change the standards, you know, before, you know, you built a company you don't recognize because like the filters that prevented people from coming in have moved, like the goalposts moved as the company got bigger. Yeah, I mean, I think we get to a point. Scale is like such an important, I think, piece of if it works or not. I hadn't thought about it like that. I mean, so obviously way easier to say it as someone who's not scaled a company yet, but I think it's important to have the intention, right? Like it's, it's, it's good to kind of like, as you're building from the beginning, figure out what, what things feel foundational that you don't want to kind of change later, because if you're not intentional about them, the, the external pressures will push you to do what other people do. And then that's kind of where you'll find yourself. Again, I think about Toby, Toby from Shopify talking on multiple podcasts about how he like looked around, around COVID time and basically didn't recognize the company like, like that, that he had built around himself. He didn't even recognize his own behavior as a CEO. He's like, why am I behaving like this as a CEO? This doesn't make sense. So anyways, easier said than done. Yeah. Same with Brian Chesky too. He's talked about like going into founder mode after Airbnb. And yeah, maybe, maybe to finish, I'm curious, like, you know, now that you've hired a bunch of people and you've learned and you've like, I'm sure you've repped and you've kind of almost updated your mental model for like how you do hiring, like if you're going to hire someone, let's say like tomorrow or in two months, like what would you do differently than what you've been doing so far? I keep doing what I'm doing because it's been working. I think like I, so listen, I have like a platform where I write on Substack. Which we will plug in the show notes. I love, I love your Substack. It's great. But I think I, like, I use that to kind of show people what this, what I'm doing, you know, like I think the job description almost feels secondary to me. And I think I built a platform where I can show people those things. I have like a very strong network and that is my step one. And I, the other thing I was going to mention is like when I'm thinking about like putting a job description up, like I'm thinking about where are those people hanging out? What podcasts do they listen to? What Substacks are they subscribed to? Where, like, how do I put myself where they are? And so I really think about it like a marketing campaign versus here's my job description. I'm putting it on LinkedIn and praying for the best. I really am in touch. And I think about of the people that I want to fill this role, what companies are they at? What roles are they in? And I get like really, really specific. So I have like a hit list of people that I am doing personal outreach to. And I would keep doing that over and over again, using the platform that I have to show people and talk more about the role. And really like develop like a list of people that I do outreach to versus waiting for people to apply on LinkedIn. Do you ever gut check a JD with people that you trust to make sure that they're kind of like reading it the way you intend it to be read or like their understanding of the job is aligned with like what you actually want the person doing? I probably have done that for sure, at least with my husband. I'm like, does this make sense to you? Because he's not he's a lawyer. So he's like so far from my world. And I think sometimes we can get so into the weeds and I'm like, does this make sense on like a human level? Because he's not in the product world, even though he's been in the product world adjacently for a very long time. So it is always good to be like, let me like get someone who's really far away from it. Does this make sense to them? Let me get someone who, you know, might be. I actually send it to people who like aren't looking for a job, but might know someone. And then I like getting feedback from them, too. How do you pick the people to send it to to get their feedback? People I trust, a lot of people that I like work with, people that I respect, people who might be in similar shoes as I have. There's, of course, like people at the company, but we use like all the lingo and language. And it's like, you know, I run core groups here. I'm like, it's not clear what a core group is like. Someone's like, what's a core group? Like, what is Hampton? You know, like having to explain what's the moderator role? These like basic things. And so having someone who's really removed can be but also like very familiar with like the function can be really powerful and important. Yeah, another. Sorry, Mark, I want to follow up. Is that OK? Another thing I was wondering about is how you think differently about crafting a JD or doing what we just talked about for, let's say, hiring someone to do a job that you like, you know how to do that job. So you're kind of like taking something maybe off your plate or like you've done that and you're just hiring someone to like do it. You know exactly what success looks like, you know, good looks like versus a job that's maybe like you're not good at it or the company's not great at it. So you kind of like need someone who's good at something you're not good at. So maybe you don't really know like what great looks like. Yeah, if I don't know what great looks like, I would probably be doing research to see if other companies or people I know have nailed that language. So like if I'm hiring like something that I have no idea, like I would go and do research to seek out like who has people at that company and like what are their LinkedIn's look like? What is their background? Like what is the language that they use? I would probably run it against, you know, Claude and just like have do some research if I don't know what that job is or like what the language is that I need to use. Interesting. Yeah. Selfishly asking, we're thinking about some of this stuff right now for someone that can help us with kind of like some some growth initiatives that have to do with like marketing. And we're just like spending a lot of time discussing like what is the job? What are the requirements? What what? Like, are we good at this enough to like know how to evaluate it? Or so I would say, yeah, I'd be like looking for people who have experience like doing growth for like podcasts or something and then like like reach out to them like or, you know, like look at their LinkedIn's and see what they're doing. Like I would try and find parallel people to kind of borrow language is what I would do. Makes sense. Yeah. Go ahead, Mark. I think you were going to say something before I asked that. That's funny. I was going to ask a similar question, since I think we're both in a very similar headspace. It's almost like we're talking to each other all day. Yeah. Shocking, shocking. I'm curious, is there one interview that you've been doing that gives you the highest signal? Like out of all the maybe like interview phases that you do, like, is there one that you continue to be like, you know, like if I can only keep one of the interviews that I do and like this is the one that like just like continuously like is the best line. I mean, like the people that perform best or that I like best at the end of this interview are usually like translates to like great performance in the role. That's a good question. I don't know. I can't I can't say there's like a perfect pattern. I think first impressions are really important. But like spending a lot of time with someone and feeling like you ran out of time to talk is always like a good signal. So maybe that like hiring manager, like bigger interview that I do. Yeah, the kind of the desire to have more conversations, it sounds like is like a very strong signal. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The flowing conversation. Yeah. And that desire of continuing the conversation is because like me, I'm sure it sounds like, OK, I enjoy talking to that person. That's part of it. But there's also like almost like there's something that this person can teach me or like the way that they think. Or opening my perspectives or my brain to something new. Like I am not someone who's like, I need to know everything. Like I just wrote about this. I want people to come in and challenge and push me. And if you're just sitting there like, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, OK, like you're just going to be a minion. And that's less interesting to me. Yeah, it's like a fine, it's a fine balance where you want people that like are assertive and can kind of hold their own opinion or can teach you something or push back. But you obviously don't want to like have, I think most candidates would say, I just had this really weird interview. I feel like I kind of got into like a debate with like, you know, like, is that good? Is that like, is there anything that you see? Is it just like the basic soft skills that are that that's the difference between like a good version of like kind of like interesting interview versus one that's like a negative is just like, did that actually feel like conflict or did that feel like almost like productive discussion? Yeah, it's like construction, constructive, productive debate versus people coming in like you're doing this all wrong. Like, OK, well, this isn't fun. Like you're done. Like, okay, well, this isn't fun. Like, you're done. Yeah, like, have, you know, like, have you thought about it like this, you know, like kind of coming in with like a more inquisitive, curious approach versus like an accusatory approach is always like a softer way to like, invite debate, I would say. Yeah. So, okay, so your overall, I'm trying to kind of summarize maybe like the bones of how you think about the process that's been working for you. So there's this kind of like initial drafting of the JD, maybe you'll bounce it off of your PM through osmosis husband and get some perspectives, some perspectives there. You'll take maybe with a heavy grain of salt, the internal feedback you get from the team because people kind of know the lingo. They already know a lot of assumptions that the outside world won't. Then you might kind of float that JD with some people that you trust who've worked with you on the outside, whose opinion you trust and try to get that perspective. And then you'll shift into looking at LinkedIn's when people apply, see what's interesting. You'll do your best to broadcast the JD to get the wide net in front of where the people that you want to attract are hanging out. And then you'll invite people on for like, I guess, like, is the first call still a call? You don't bring them on site immediately? You start with like a phone screen? Yeah, we'll do like a virtual phone screen. Virtual phone screen, look for vibes, look for great storytelling and communication and really try to walk away from that with two things. One is like, I really want to keep talking to this person. So like, that's like a success state. Or like we ran out of time and I wish we didn't. And then the second piece is this person really feels like they can tell me why they're the right person for this specific role, this specific opportunity. And then you bring them on site. And there's a combination of conversations, different people on the team feel the vibe, feel the chemistry. They can ask questions, you can ask them questions, meet the team. And then is there like a final step after that or you usually can make decisions at the end of at the end of the onsite day? It depends. Sometimes we brought people back for like one more onsite, get back on the phone. It's very ad hoc, depending on what we need. Yeah. Cool. We could keep going. But I know you have a hard stop in about six minutes. And I want to make sure we let you go for that. So Mark, let's start wrapping. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. So two, two kind of final questions for you before our gratitude corner is one is where can people learn more about what you're up to and then two, how can our audience be useful to you? Yeah. I maintain a sub stack called Product Therapy, it's joribell.com. And I write a lot about what I'm dealing with, like from a product standpoint, a leadership standpoint and a life standpoint. So definitely find me there. I'm always looking for really great moderators to lead our Hampton core groups. So if you know, former founders, executive coaches who are looking to do more group work, send them my way. We're all over the world and we need we need more moderators and of course, founders, you know, any great founders who are looking for community and who are curious and wanting to level up, they'd be a great fit for Hampton. And the requirement there is they have to be at least like 3 million in revenue, right? In revenue or raised. Yeah. Cool. So if you're looking for moderators, those all need to be in person. Are those in-person groups? Those are all in-person groups. Yes. Got it. Great. Yeah. We will include in the show notes any links you want to give us for people to learn more about both of those. Okay, cool. Is there any other way the audience could be helpful to you before we shift to our very grounding and wholesome gratitude corner? I think any product leaders who are like looking to connect, I haven't had as much time to do so. So if you have limited capacity, I'm not taking new people on right now, but people who are looking for support, like from a product standpoint, any connections there would be awesome. Awesome. Cool. Then we'll wrap with gratitude corner, something we weren't doing last time you were on the podcast, but we have been really enjoying it. So we'd love to just make a little space for you at the end of the episode to thank one or multiple people who have played some role in your journey that you want to give them a shout out for doing. Yeah. I'm going to give a shout out to my own coach, Mike Lewis, who's played a very pivotal role for me over the past year. He's been someone who's just really helped me tremendously. And I had never worked with a coach before, like from a product standpoint. I finally drank my own Kool-Aid, my own medicine, whatever it is. And he's been super impactful. So thank you, Mike. You're amazing. I'm going to send this to you. Love it. Amazing. We'll link to Mike's LinkedIn in the notes. And thank you for what you do, Mike. Cool. Well, Jori, it's been a pleasure just watching the journey play out for you. I love getting your posts. I read all of them. And I appreciate you making some time to come back on the pod. Thanks for having me. I love hanging out with you guys. And I'm excited for part three. It's happening. We don't know when, but it's happening. It's happening. Amazing. All right. That's a wrap. Bye-bye.