The Founder of a $1.5B AI Company on What Comes After the First Wave of AI Apps

You are the co-founder and CEO of Granola, one of the first new AI apps where people were like, holy shit, this actually works. Meeting notes are not the end-all, be-all value that everyone's running after. There's something much bigger. And I think we are in the very, very early steps of a computing revolution. What has come thus far will pale in comparison to what will come soon. Startups are like knife fights. And I thought startups were just really hard when they weren't working. Turns out they're really hard even when they're working as well! Every is the only subscription you need to stay at the edge of AI. If you care about being on top of the latest models and using the latest tools, you have to subscribe to Every. We'll help you separate the signal from the noise. Go to every.to slash subscribe today. And now, back to the episode. Hey, Dan. Great to see you. Good to see you too. It's been a while. So for people who don't know, you are the co-founder and CEO of Granola, one of my favorite AI apps. One of the apps that I think really kicked off the wave in the last, in like, you know, I guess two or three years ago, it was one of the first, like, new AI apps where people were like, holy shit, this actually works. And it's useful. And since then, you've gone on to, I think the team is about 55. You've raised at like a $1.5 billion valuation. You're just killing it. And we had a really good conversation in December 2024, so almost two and a half years ago about putting soul into your product and making products that are delightful. And I'm just super curious to hear what's on your mind, how things are going, and to sort of share out both of our journeys over the last couple of years and think about the future together. Couldn't be more excited to chat. I've been following all the different things you've been doing, you know, from a distance. I'd love to hear, I'd love to hear the latest from the inside on how that's going. Just to react on one thing you said, you said we're killing it, right? And we're very, we're very lucky. Like things are going well. What, something I was unprepared for, so I did a previous startup and startups are, they're like, they're knife fights, right? They're like really hard, you know, like they're really, I don't know, maybe, maybe life's easy for you, but for me, it's like, it's really hard. And I thought startups were just really hard when they weren't working. Turns out they're really hard even when they're working as well. It's just, it's a knife fight when things are going well, not going well. And I was a bit unprepared for that. So it just, I'm very, I had a professor in journalism school who he was basically like, the last thing the world needs is another profile that puts someone up, you know, it's like, oh, this person's so great. And it's like, no, no, everything's hard today. Fight day in, day out. Like that's, that's my mentality. So just wanted to share that. I feel you, man. I definitely feel the same way where I've been doing companies for a long time and Every is the first one that's like really growing and just really working in this way that feels like it's a real company. We have 30 people now, you know? And thank you. And when it is working, you know, like a good example, Claude Tag dropped yesterday. We've been working on a Slack agent, Claude Tag dropped yesterday. And so then everyone's looking at you like, what do we do? And I'm like, we've, we've, we're prepared for this. We've been thinking, we know that we knew this was going to happen. And the, especially in AI, I feel like the ground shifts so quickly. And I, I assume for you, like one of the things you're talking to, and I'm talking about it and I'm actually really curious, is you were the first one to do really great AI meeting notes and meeting transcriptions. And then immediately everyone just like put meeting notes into their product. We actually, we have a, we have this product called Monologue that has a meeting notes button, you know? Oh, cool. I didn't know that. Congrats. Welcome to the fray. Yeah, Yeah, I don't, I don't really think of it as being an exact one-to-one replacement. I actually have both on my computer, but, but still that that's probably what you're referring to when you say knife, knife fight. So tell me about, tell me about that. What is that like? How is that, has that actually affected your business at all? That's actually not what I was referring to as a knife fight. I mean, that's part of it, you know? I think it's just I guess what I was referring to is I think by definition, a startup is, you know, you're either fighting for survival. You're like always fighting for survival. And it's like, if things are going well, you're like fighting to, it's like this big wave and you're, you're like on the surfboard and you're trying desperately not to fall off that, that surfboard. And so you're kind of always just beyond the edge of your abilities. And it's almost like by definition. And therefore, I'm always doing, you know, you always hear this is like, oh, it's like as a founder, you're always doing stuff that you don't know how to do. It's like, oh yeah, actually, that at least that's been my experience. It's like, I'm always just in this space where like stuff I've never done before, or it's just more than we've ever like bit off in the past. Yeah, the competition. Like here, here's my view. And I, I feel like I've, I've said this. Let me think about it. So I think though, uh, when I think about this, this is going to sound like one of those bullshit answers around competition, right? Cause like there's always the interview where it's like, Hey, like Microsoft just copied your product. How do you, you know, how do you feel about it? And the founder has to like come up with some, some answer. Like the, the way I, the way I view it is like, I think we are in the very, very early steps of a, a computing revolution and that, um, there's what has come thus far will pale in comparison to what will come soon. And I think that it doesn't, like meeting notes are not the end all be all, like value that everyone's running after. There's something much bigger and I think it's uh what interface we use for work and how we work and like what, what does that look like in the AI native world? And so when I think about competition, I'm just kind of like, What people are fighting for today doesn't matter. There's this incredible opportunity ahead. And I think we are, we have a shot at it. And a few other companies have a shot at it, right? Uh, but it, like that's really what matters. So in the same way where people are like, oh, Granola is doing really well. It's like, well, in my mind, it's like easy come, easy go in a way, right? Like meeting notes are useful, but like a lot of things are going to change in the future. And just because people use us today doesn't mean they're going to use us for that in the future if we're not the best at that next thing. So, yeah, I don't know. That's my zoomed out view. Like people, and the other thing to say is like, we are not the first meeting note taker, right? Meeting, like AI note takers have been around for ages. We, we, we were, let's say, heavily inspired by a lot of things that came before. So I, you know, so I can't be like, oh, how dare you be inspired by what we did? You know, it's like, we're, it's just in an ecosystem. It has affected the company a lot less than I thought it would. Like, I think within, like Notion copied, or whatever, let's say, launched a thing, I think heavily inspired by Granola. OpenAI did, Zoom did recently. So it's like in some ways it's like, I didn't have to sit with the like nightmare summit scenario of like, what would it be like the day that launches? It's like that kind of came and came and happened and we're, we're still here. Yeah. We're still, like, it hasn't changed anything from our growth rate or whatnot. But again, we're still a drop in the bucket compared to what we'd like to be in terms of how people use us and how many people use us. So I think it's just very early days is my view. That makes sense. I, I just got to say, I love getting to talk to you because I feel like you're just so honest about what you're dealing with. It's, it's the best. It's so fun. It's so, it's very different. It's very different from a lot of, a lot of people. And I think this is going to be a very fun conversation. But one of the, but what I want to go back to is, um, and I'm happy to share too. What I want to go back to is you said you're balancing on the surfboard and you're trying not to fall off. And, you know, normally in startups, you're like, you're on the surfboard and you're just like paddling and you're like waiting for the wave. And then I think for both of us, for you more so than me, but for both of us, you're like, I'm on the big one now. Like, let's try not to get, let's start trying not to Is you spend most of your time in granola. And so one of the things you're curious about for me is if I'm playing around and experimenting, like, what am I, what am I finding? So I wanna, let's, let's talk about that. I think there's a lot of meat there. First of all, tell me about, tell me about that. Like the, I spend most of my time in granola. I think that's a, it makes perfect sense, but also as a, as a CEO, as a strategic way of being, tell me about that decision. So, like I mentioned before that I think the big opportunity here is to kind of invent how we're going to work and collaborate with AI to think and do things, right? Like that, that's kind of in some shape or form, I think that's what we're all chasing right now in Silicon Valley, right? And, and to that end, I think there's a lot of, that's the kind of thing you can like think about abstractly, but then you have to be playing with to, to kind of get a feel for. And it's just, it's hard for me to have the brain space of, of playing with every new thing that comes up, right? And in Granola, we have a lot of, a lot of context and a lot of internal tooling so that I can play around with different ideas, but they're oftentimes like in my little universe, as opposed to, like, I don't go and set up very complicated workflows in, in Cloud, for example. Like I do it, I play around with it to get a feel, but I don't, I don't, those aren't load bearing for me because I'm trying to see what makes sense or doesn't make sense to do inside of Granola as we paint that future picture. It seems like you are at the forefront of experimenting, trying new things, building different workflows for yourself. So like maybe just start off by being like, what's the current state of, of Dan's like tooling stack? And then we can go from there. I spend all my time in Codex. Okay. Almost exclusively. And how long, and how long has that been? Like, is that a recent thing? Is that like two months, maybe, two, three months. Yeah. And then, and I do use the Claude desktop app sometimes, like when Fable was a thing, I, I track all my usage. And when Fable was a thing, you can see me like go on cloud usage. And then when it, when it left, it went like down. So I assume when it's back, because I think Fable, Fable is just a different beast. And I test all the new stuff and I have access to stuff before it comes out. And Fable is just different. But I think of, so my overall view is that work is bifurcating into two surfaces. One is async delegation work that happens in Slack. That's collaborative, multiplayer, um, sometimes proactive. And that happens with Slackbots, like we have one called Plus One. There's one called Victor. There's the Claude's tag. And that's very much like, um, okay, every morning, it posts in a channel and says, Hey, here's all the bugs that got solved. Here's all the bugs that got reported. Here's all the, here's all the PRs we pushed. And then you can add it and say, can you, you know, kick off, kick, can you kick off PR for, you know, XYZ bug? And it just does it. Or can you, uh, we're trying to name this new product. Can you, uh, read all of the stuff we've said about what we want the product to be and then propose some names and then the team can be like going back and forth with it in the same channel, um, to, to talk through names. So you can hand off stuff with it, like it's a coworker. And importantly, because most AI right now is single player. You can do it. You do it in public. And I think that's really interesting in a whole set of things. However, however, for serious work, you can't, you're always going to get more out of it if, if you have a, a better collaboration service between you and the agent. And Slack is not good for that. And so the other surface is something like a Codex or, or a Claude desktop app where you and the agent are sitting in the same place on the same app together. And in particular in Codex, for me, it's like I use almost all of my software in the in-app browser of Codex. So I'm bringing Codex into my email or into, you know, whatever it is, in the same way that... Right. What do you mean by that? Can you, can you describe that? How do you do that? I'll explain. So, you know, like, you know, when you're building something in Codex or Claude code and it opens an in-app browser and it lets you see the local host version of the thing and you're iterating on it. Basically like all of the patterns, a good mental model for how AI works for me is all the patterns that started with developers or builders eventually make their way into all of knowledge work because we are, we, what we found is that building a, um... Building a good enough agent to build any kind of software, once it can build any kind of software, it's actually really good for doing any kind of knowledge work that, that you want. And that's like the less, that's why Claude code went to Claude co-work. That's why, you know, Codex is now all of knowledge work, all that kind of stuff. So one of those patterns is when you're building something like an app, um, what you really want is the agent to be in the loop with you. So as it builds something, it opens an in-app browser. You can see it and you can kind of go back and forth. You can annotate it. You can whatever. And you and the agent are seeing it together. Uh, that pattern also works for any kind of software. So any kind of website you might visit. So really simple example. Um, last night I, uh, I moved departments recently and I needed to change my internet. And I just told Codex, go figure that out. And it knows the address of my old one and my new one, which is actually the same building. I'm just moving floors. It just opened up the Verizon website in its in-app browser. And it logged in. I gave it the password. It logged in. I gave it the password and then it opened up a chat with a customer service agent who was also probably using AI. And it just like chatted with them until it switched my internet. And it also, like, and all these little things come up where it's like, Okay, when do you want to move in and out? And Codex knows because I've been talking to it about like when I moved and when I wanted to switch. Um, and then it's like, here's, here's your old plan doesn't work. Here's the new plan. Um, and Codex, Codex knows to be like, I don't want any hidden fees. It knows how to do the math on, you know, is this a good deal or not? And to be able to research it and then to like push them to give me the thing that it thinks I should get. And I don't have to do any of that. I'm just like sitting there. And, and is that, is that something that you somehow communicated to Codex or is that just like an out of the box? Like, obviously any human would want this when talking to an internet provider. It's, it's both. It's easy because it's, it's easy for it. It will, it knows pretty well when it can make assumptions and when it, when it shouldn't. Um, and so I'm, I can be in the loop on it and I also can just go, go to another thread and be doing something else. So I'm kind of like flipping back and forth with it. I think that's something, but, but it's, there's a more, uh, there's a more general thing there where I use, this is how I do my email. Um, it is in the loop with me in Quora, which is our email app. And, um, also I have this, this, this open source thing I experiment I built called Tend, but basically it's like my emails are now cards that I read in Codex in the in-app browser. And then each card, it says, here's what the email said. Here's what I think the draft should be. Do you want to send it? And I just talk to it. I see. So, but this is, this is basically you've like vibe coded your own email client basically, right? Is that I vibe coded an experimental email client that does this and then we will have a, we will have a version of Quora, which is our full email client that just has this out of the box. But you can think of the apps that, that are structured this way as being, um, I've been calling them codex native apps, but they're basically apps that are responsible for saving the state and rendering the UI and you bring your agent to it. And I think that that is a much, it's a, it's a very powerful paradigm because think about, I mean, think about all the work that you have to do for granola to like make an agent that is good. And it's, it's really hard. And you're also, you're also competing with the clouds and the, and the codexes of the world who are also building the same kind of agent with the same kind of functionality. Um, and to some degree, I also think that um in some cases that's, that's, that's very worthwhile because I do Fundamental design challenge in like the agentic world is the time traveling problem. Basically, like, agents take time to do things, and therefore, like, when you, you're talking about Slack as an interface for this, which is like the async delegation problem I think you said before, which is basically like, the moment in which you kick off a task and the moment in which you're reviewing the task are disjoint, and then you need to get all that context into your into your head. And I think that'll be one of the, I think you'll see a lot of the interfaces that evolve to be highly optimized for that, and I haven't seen anything that's great, to be honest. Like, I don't know, like, the conductor, it's like, oh, I've got all these different like chat threads and I'm jumping between them and it's kind of very, like, like, it feels like there'll be, I don't know what they look like, there'll be evolutions beyond that that are coming. Um Another one that's been, that's interesting, like another way to get around this, like, it takes a while for an agent to do thing problem is um pre-process a bunch of stuff. Like if like, so like one thing that we figured out is, like, if I ask Granola to do something and I have to wait 20 seconds, basically, humans will rarely wait for 20 seconds if they're in the like, back-to-back meetings, chaotic, crazy workday, which is kind of the user that we're thinking about. Um, but if Granola kind of thinks about something you might want and then pre-generates it and then at some point might be like, oh, here, in case you want this, it's already here and all you have to do is click on it, that's like a, feels completely different. Um, and so, like, uh, we have, we have some examples there, like, um, we launched this thing recently where Granola will try to generate a brief for you before a meeting where it's basically, here's this person you're meeting with, here's the context of, like, like who the person is, if it's a first meeting or, or what you guys talked about last time, if it's a, if it's at a, another meeting. And this one, you essentially have to pre-generate it because it's, it's a useful when you're running two minutes late to a meeting and you're like, wait, who the heck is this person I'm talking to again? Like, and and like that's the, that's the critical moment. So you really only have like a 15-second window where it needs to be there or it's kind of useless. Um So we, we actually pre-generate, like millions of, like, we pre-generate a silly amount of these, um, for a small percentage of them actually being like opened in the belief that when you do open it, though, you really, really appreciate it because it's like right, it's exactly what you need in the moment of need. Um, but it's like an interesting, it's like a, it's a, it's an interesting process or trade-off there, especially from like a cost perspective because it's like a, you know, we're like hours and I don't know, hundreds of thousands of hours of like agents reasoning about things that may or may not ever get to see the light of day. And how do you, how are you measuring that? Like the, whether that's worth it or not? It's an open question. Um, I don't know how to measure it just yet. What I'm trying to figure out is that we don't have a good metric between that, like there's, there's use. Like, if something's not used at all, it's obviously not good, right? But then there's like, if something is used a little bit or, you know, a decent amount, but it's really load-bearing when it's used and that's still very valuable, I'm trying to figure out how to, how to measure what that is, right? Like I was at a, I was at a founder's conference the other day, and like four founders came up to me and, and talked about this pre-meeting brief feature, which like surprised me because it's not, you know, it, it's not used as much as, like, proportionally that's not what I would have expected, you know? Um, so, yeah, we have this, um, we have this uh analogy, um metaphor. I always forget which, which of those two it is inside of Granola of, of like, um, how we want the Granola product to feel, and it's, um, it's like a handrail. So if, if you imagine like stairs, like all stairs have handrails, right? And, uh, yeah, it's like basically it's like, you never notice a handrail because it's like invisible, but like, that, that moment you trip, like your hand, like, shoots out and it needs to be right there and it needs to be load-bearing and it makes stairs way safer, uh, and like that, and like, and to me, that was like, that's exactly what I want. Like, we can't do this for everything, but that's exactly what I want because we're just going to care more than any individual should, should ever care about any one workflow, is kind of how I think about it. I think that's exactly right. Um, okay, so we're, we're, we're definitely aligned there. My current feeling is, in general, when I, and this is, again, this is just for me and, and this may change, but when I see Granola, like a, like the UI come up, it's usually a mistake. You don't want to see it. I don't want to see it. I mean, it's fine. The recording thing is fine. But in general, the way that I want to access it is going to be it pushing something into Codex, which is my work surface, or Codex pulling something out of it. And I think this focus on meetings is so right. And it's actually such a hard and deep problem to just get that, like, the context of that right. So, for example, I mean, you know this better than I. But I'm just thinking about when, when we do, when you do a transcript and I say the, the name Chris, which Chris are we talking about, right? Um And so I sort of, I think of the, the job of software companies in an AI world, AI is this really super flexible thing, but it's only flexible if it's given the right structure and the right context within which to be flexible. So if, if, you know, AI, if we're using the human body as an analogy, AI is like the, the ligaments and the muscles, and then the software has to be the bones. Um And the bones sort of set, like, give it form and a structure, but then the, the AI can kind of like, work around that to, to, to do anything. And um. There's so much for, even, even for example, again, in a meeting transcript, I might say, um, that's a good idea, but the way I say that means, says a lot about what I actually think that is not captured in just a transcript. And I want Granola to be, uh, like, I, I have a, I have this um, this automation that runs, uh, that turns all the slacks and all the meetings that I was not in into cards that I just go through and I can see things that happened in the company. But the transcripts are A, often wrong, and B, they, they capture none of the nuance of how and why things were said. And I think that, if Granola did that for me, it would be the most valuable thing in the world, and I wouldn't necessarily have to look at the product. Um, and maybe, maybe, like, for, for a more normie user who doesn't want to be in Codex all the time, although I do think that that's, that's going to be more and more the case. Like, you still want to have the UI, but there's all this background context processing that I would look to you guys to do that I don't really want to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, no, that makes total sense. I think, um, I guess the transcript is one way to capture the context from a meeting, right? It is the, the simplest way, and there's LMs are weirdly good at making sense of garbled transcripts and doing something useful with that. Um, I think, but what's the actual job to be done here? It's actually like, what are the insights or what are the decisions or what are the actions I need to take on top of this context? And that, there's this layer of um intelligence um or interpretation, which is like the, the disambiguation, like which Sam did I mean, is like a, is like a great example. Um, we have this, uh, so we have this, um, I'll give you like, there are challenges. It's such an interesting space. So here's a challenge we have, right? Um. We, if you, when a user starts using Granola, they use Granola a lot, right? And therefore we have a lot of context about that user, right? And we can, in the background, and we, we, we have this, but we, we don't use it yet, and I'll explain why, generate a, a pretty um high-fidelity picture of, like, who you are, what you're working on, what you're trying to achieve, what are your challenges, who you're working with on different things on. And let's just for, for, for argument's sake, let's say that's like a, a two-page summary of like who Dan is today, right? The probably a little bit different, where the perfect like, notes are just one, it's just one way to represent that information, you know, there's like other ways, and it's like what level of intelligence or interpretation would you, do you want granola to do? But yeah, I totally hear you. This is why I think it's, it's infancy days for, yes. Or honestly, like, you seemed really stressed in that meeting. Do you want to talk about it? Would be really, like, maybe people would be freaked out by that. But also, one of the things I use granola for a lot is like management stuff, and being like, how did I do there? Or someone, someone on my team had a difficult conversation with someone on their team, and they're talking to me about it. And I'm like, let's talk to Claude about the meeting transcripts, so we can decide what to do. All that kind of stuff is, in order to do it well, I need not just the transcript, but there was a long pause after XYZ said this thing. No one said anything for three minutes. That you don't see that in the transcript. Stuff like that is just, there's so much like richness there to be had that granola, to me, I want granola to do for me. Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah. I also think, uh, I'm curious, what are all the main ways? So you're like, I don't want to see the granola UI. I want to like pull that in codex or whatnot. And I, I also wonder, okay, what are the main workflows or reasons why people are pulling transcripts or meeting notes into their agents? And which of those, if you were to optimize around, you would do a better job at, and which of those are like the long tail of like, you know, give people power and they'll do a better job is also an interesting question for us. What is on your mind for the next like 6 to 12 months? As, as he's like, okay, you saw Fable come out. Does that affect your roadmap? Does that affect, uh, how you're hiring or how you're building? Uh, yeah, tell me about that. The order of operation, the questions that go through my mind is first, like, what is, how does this change how we build internally and, and how do we structure our teams? Like, that's the first question. I think our roadmap is, um, and this is the kind of thing where it's like, you know, you can have one plan in the abstract and then you actually play with something. You should, you should adjust it. And, um, I unfortunately didn't play with Fable enough before it got, before it got yanked. Um, but like the roadmap is more, it's kind of baked into the roadmap a little bit more, which is like, okay, models will get better. Here's the general strategic direction. And that's more like, I think our strategy is more dependent on what people use this for and what are the jobs to be done or use cases around that, that we can tackle and model intelligence doesn't affect that directly too much if that makes sense. Whereas, uh, model capabilities do affect how many people do we staff on a, on a, on a pod, you know, like what, like how, how do we define goals there? Like, like, should we be, should we be approaching things completely differently? Um, so yeah, that, that's the thing that's on, that's on my mind for sure. Um, The other thing is, I, uh, I think, so maybe this touches on a little bit, like, like, it's the stuff that you're using codex for. I think there's um, I think there are, there's one or multiple canonical UIs that haven't been invented yet that are, like right now, so granola, you have meeting notes, right? And, um, you can use meeting notes or transcripts or context for lots of things. Usually when you are trying to make use of that context, it's not per meeting. It's usually you have a, a set of contexts. Like in our case, let's just say it's like, all the meetings you had today or all the meetings you had this week. And maybe it's actually all the meetings and all the Slack messages and all the emails, but let's just keep it to, to meetings for a second. At that level of altitude, what is the right UI and interaction pattern, uh, interaction like design to manipulate or work with that context? I don't think anyone has figured that out. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe you're cooking on something, Dan, or maybe you'll figure it out. But like when I look around, I'm like, I've seen very little actually. Um, and you know, coming up with new UI paradigms is, it's like very hard and it's very rare for new ones to, to stick around. I think they're more discovered than invented if, if that makes sense. Um, but there's a very clear gap that I see there. Like we have like a chat UI and chats chat threads are like super valuable, like actually surprisingly versatile and powerful when you're doing one thing. But when you're actually trying to do multiple things across varied contexts, like I don't think we have the right, the right metaphor there. Um, so that, that's something that's very much on my mind. Um, because when you talk about the normie user, like, I think you're gonna need a simple metaphor that the normie user can just rock and interface with. It's not going to be the kind of hoops that you currently, you know, jump through with, with, with codex. Yeah. How do you think about token spend both on your team and in the product? I think, um, okay, I'll do team first. So token spend on team, I think folks on the team should be using AI to um augment their abilities as much as possible. I think it's silly to say, to, to, to say, if you aren't spending this many tokens, then you're doing it wrong. Like that's like a, I feel like a weird way to do it. I, um, I kind of trust the team to take the spirit of the goal, which is like, be the most productive you can be and, you know, be thoughtful about how you use it. Um, we didn't even track token spend, like we're until like last week, uh, internally, just because it wasn't, it wasn't a priority, um, for me. In terms of uh token spend in the product. Wait, wait, wait, before we get there, so you, but you started last week. So what did, what spurred it? And then what did you come to? Fable. Uh, well, what we, basically what spurred it was like, do we even know how much we're spending? Or like, we should probably know how much we're spending. It was, it was, and, and there was, it was basically because folks were using Fable. And someone's like, I think I spent a couple thousand dollars today. And we're like, okay, maybe, maybe this is something we should, we should at least be aware of. We had like literally the same thing when Fable came out and Kieran, uh, who runs Cora, he was like on track to spend like a million dollars in credits, uh, in one year. In a year, in a year. And we were like, okay, we need to figure this out. Yeah, like maybe we need to think about this a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It actually could be worth it. And also, we need to think about it, you know? Exactly, yeah, yeah. Um, this goes back to like, you know, things always outside of our ability. It's just one of those, like, it's like, yeah, we should probably, we should probably at least know how much we're spending. That sounds like a really obvious thing, but it's just like, we're just so busy with so many other things. It's like now, now's the time. Uh, in product, I think, um, like I'm still a believer that uh it's early days and we have so much to gain by figuring out what are the killer kind of AI native experiences uh that granola can, can, can build. And therefore, um, we're not very cost conscious on the token spend. So like I said before, like we pre-generate, I don't know, millions of um these briefs, even if only like 10% of them get opened, because we want to like figure out what's that right experience for the user. And our belief is both cost will go down over time and we can optimize cost once we know what the best experiences are. So like that's, that's been, that's our philosophy. Um, agentic features are really expensive. Um, and so as we build more and more of them, at some point, that'll, that'll, they'll break the math, uh, for us. Uh, but, but for now, that's been the priority. And how much are people using true agentic workflows in granola? I ask that as like a, I'm really curious about normie users learning how to use like power features like, like those. It's the word agentic. That's tough, right? Like I think the like, um, roughly half is the answer, right? Like weekly, like, like every week, about half the granola users use us in an agentic way. Um, and, but I don't know if they would describe it that way. If that makes sense. Right. Like they have, they, they'll be like, they'll ask a query that is like a kind of a complex query around, uh, um, you know, like, let's say you're, you're coaching or improvement question