We replaced our sales team with 20 AI agents—here’s what happened | Jason Lemkin (SaaStr)

Used to have about 10 people full-time. Now you have 1.2 humans, 20 agents. We have 10 desks that used to be go-to-market people. They're all just labeled with our agents. Repli for replit, quali for qualified, arty for artisan, agent force needs a nickname. Agents work all night and they work weekends and they work on Christmas. We're done with hiring humans in sales. We're done. The business is doing very similarly to what it was when you had 10 humans. If I had two more great humans that wanted to join, don't get me wrong, I would hire them tomorrow. But I'm not gonna hire someone that after their third month in the job doesn't know what SASTR does. I just can't do that. AI is replacing the jobs people don't want to do today and it is displacing the mid-pack and the mediocre. How do you see the future of the sales profession? We should have $250,000 a year SDRs, but they'd be like at Vercel, they'd be managing 10 agents, not 10 people. The classic SDR junior kid that is hired out of college to send emails, we don't need them. Folks that qualify leads coming in, the contact me's that we see, we have no need for them today. They should be extinct next year. Someone's listening to this like, oh man, my job is in trouble. If you can go do this, you're hyper employable. Today, my guest is Jason Lemkin, founder and CEO of SASTR, the world's largest community for B2B founders, and one of my absolute favorite sales and go-to-market minds on the planet. Jason is not only deeply knowledgeable about everything sales, he's also extremely articulate and direct, and is also now personally going super deep on what AI can do for a sales org. He's transformed his own SASTR sales team from around 10 SDRs and AEs to one full-time AE, a part-time chief of AI named Amelia, and 20 AI agents. He is seeing the same performance from his AI team as he saw with his former human team, and he's just getting started. These are my favorite kinds of conversations because the guest is living in the future and comes here to show us what the future is like, where we're headed, and how we can get there ourselves, and also just how to avoid all the pitfalls that he had to deal with along the way. We cover all of the things that he has learned about where sales and go-to-market is going in the AI age. He gives a bunch of advice for salespeople and the future of their careers, the future of the go-to-market org, how to win as an AI startup right now, what tools he's finding most useful, what it took to shift his sales team, and so much more. This episode is going to get your mind spinning in the best way possible. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously. And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get 19 premium products for free for an entire year, including a year free of Lovable, Repl.it, Bolt, N8n, Gamma, Linear, Devon, Post-Talk, Superhuman, Descript, Whisperflow, Perplexity, Warp, Granola, Magic Patterns, Raycast, JPRD, Mobbin, and Stripe Atlas. Head on over to linneysnewsletter.com and click product pass. With that, I bring you Jason Lemkin after a short word from our sponsors. Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. To thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly, but many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like, which tools are working? How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox, Booking.com, Adyen, and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com slash Lenny. That's getdx.com slash Lenny. This episode is brought to you by VZero from Vercel. VZero is the web development assistant designed for professionals of all technical backgrounds, whether you're a product manager, designer, or developer. Transform how you bring products to life. With VZero, everybody can cook. Don't just show up to reviews with docs and ideas. Arrive with working prototypes that demonstrate real functionality. VZero drafts project plans, generates interactive interfaces, and builds full-stack applications without writing a single line of code. And with features like AI and database integrations, screenshot import, and sync with GitHub, VZero helps reduce development bottlenecks and enhance collaboration between technical and non-technical team members. The result, faster iteration and a shorter path from idea to implementation. Vercel built VZero for the builders who want to create at the moment of inspiration. If you can dream it, you can ship it. Visit Vercel.com slash Lenny to get started. That's Vercel.com slash Lenny. Jason, thank you so much for being here and welcome back to the podcast. Lucky to be a super fan and then to get to join, right? It's terrific to be on the other side. So this is our second conversation. We did our last conversation a year and a half ago. I don't know if you know this, but it became a pretty legendary episode. It's something people continue to share. And that conversation is around basically a deep dive into building your sales org. And a lot has changed for you and the world since then. Cough, AI. And what's happened is you've gone extremely deep in what AI enables for sales, for startups, for go-to-market. And what I love about conversations like this is you're basically living in the future and you're here to give us a glimpse of where things are heading and tell us how to avoid the wrong turns and just help us get there ourselves. That I think I can do. To start. Yes. Help us understand just the business you run, this Sastr. Yeah. What is it you sell? What is the business? What is it you do, Jason? I'm still trying to figure it out, Lenny. Maybe you are too in some ways. That's true. So, I am a two-time founder who started writing a blog, my God, in 2012 about all the mistakes I made after I sold my startup to Adobe. We started doing a couple meetups. You've done meetups. Before anyone did this stuff, we did a big meetup in 2015. Thousands of people came. Then we do 10,000 people a year at Sastr Annual. I've actually also invested almost $200 million, almost 10X lifetime, only into founders from the community. But the reason I don't know is what I, folks that are connected to our content, I'm just passionate about helping other founders see mistakes and make less of them. So, anyhow, we're a large community. I do invest, but it turned into a business. There was no revenue in the beginning. I'm sure there was no revenue for Lenny in the beginning. Ours was less intentional. But we do do eight figures of revenue a year, and it's work. That sounds great, okay, to do eight figures. But there's a lot of costs, especially on the event side. The media side has almost no costs. And it's work. We have 100 sponsors. And as you know, you have sponsors, but there's a certain level where it becomes a lot of work. Like getting two folks to sponsor your podcast with a couple emails, no work, right? If you wanted to have four Lenny podcast, it just scales. So we have built our own go-to-market team over time, and I've lived the frustrations. Folks have followed it. And then maybe I'm rambling a little bit. The interesting thing, the aha moment that happened to us is going into May of this year, we had one AI agent into production called Delphi that we both used for digital Lenny and digital Jason. Really interesting learnings. And we went into our 10,000-person event this year with a seven-figure budget and eight-figure top line, and two folks on the sales team who were paid high end of market. I have many flaws, but paying well and being loyal are not one of them. Two of them just quit at the event. They just quit on site, okay? And this was like the third time I've done this, like the eighth team I've built, and I turned to Amelia, our chief A officer, and I said, we're done with hiring humans in sales. We're done. We are gonna push the limits with agents. We're gonna push, even if it doesn't quite work, okay? And I knew from this Delphi, this general agent, that it would sort of work because going into annual, this general agent, this digital Jason closed a 70K sponsorship on its own. So when I saw that a horizontal agent, not trained for sales, not trained for GTM, could close one deal, we're like, let's deploy a couple of these apps. We have time. And I just can't pay a junior SDR $150,000 a year to quit. I just can't, like, criticize me, but I just couldn't do it one more time. I just couldn't do it one more. And I actually think this isn't, when I talk to CEOs at leading AI companies, they kinda don't wanna do it either. They wanna have the smallest sales teams they can, as much for cultural reasons, right? Even if Repl.it only goes from zero to 200, it could have been 220 with a smaller sales team. I think Omjad's okay with it, right? So it's an enduring thing. But anyhow, so we pushed the limits. And now if you walk into Sastr's office, it's kinda funny, we have 10 desks that used to be go-to-market people. They're all just labeled with our agents. Repl.it for Repl.it, Quali for Qualified, Arty for Artisan, AgentForce needs a nickname. Maybe we can make one up with Salesforce. There's Amelia's corner office at one end. I'm in the back of the office and it's just agents. It's the quietest office. And NetNet, Lenny, it's about, here's the meta learning for when we're recording this. The net productivity is about the same. It's not better, it's not worse, but it's so much more efficient and it scales because software scales. So, and we can talk about what we've learned. I think it's important that it takes time to train these agents. They don't work out of the box, but when you dial them in, when you take your best person or your best script and you train an agent with your best person and best script, that agent can start to become a version of your best salesperson, your best person. And that's what we've learned and how to perfect it. And I just think because, and criticize me, anybody, you or anyone watching or listening, maybe it's not cool I didn't wanna hire my 28th rep that was gonna quit, but I just couldn't do it one more time in the age of AI. I'm like, it's time to go to the bleeding edge and just see what we can push the limits here. Okay, I love all the directions we're already heading. Okay, so just to help people totally understand what your business is. Basically, these people are selling sponsors for your conferences. They're selling two things and it's just relevant to the deep dive. They're selling sponsorships, which average about 70 to 80K. And then they're also selling tickets, which is the high volume for, this is like the self-serve version. They're selling tickets that are anywhere from a couple of hundred bucks to if you're a VC that comes the night before, it could be two grand. Okay, no gifts for VCs that decide the night before. Founders that decide early get it at about 20% of cost. And it's work to sell these tickets, right? And so you can just post an email like you do and you probably fill up Lenny's Summit, but if you wanna max it out, you gotta do work. You gotta do drip campaigns. You gotta reach out to people. You have to reactivate folks that came to Lenny's Summit three years ago, but you want them back because they're good people. And that just requires work. And as your base scales, you have, how many people subscribe to Lenny's newsletter now? 1.2 million or something? 1.2 million, roughly. Okay, how many of those is a human willing to reach out to? Approaching nonce. Imagine you hired a 21-year-old SDR fresh out of junior college and said, here's my list, 1.2 million people. Start calling them. I want him to come to Lenny's Summit. So we have this low-end version, which is tickets, right? Which is four or five million a year. And then we have this higher-end sales cycle. And they're very different. And actually, they have different agents. And then we have a different agent to get people to come back, lapsed people. So we have lapsed, high-end and low-end agents. And they have different workflows. And we actually use different vendors for now. For now, we use different vendors. Okay, and so previously, before this future world, how many SDRs did you have? How many salespeople in this? We would have two to three SDRs and up to five AEs. So like eight, nine people full-time working on SASTR to bring in sponsors and to bring in tickets. Yes, although, yes, a lot of it is inbound and renewals, but yes, to manage that business, to manage the sales side of that business. Yeah, and go to market. Let's call it eight to nine and go to market. Now we have 1.2. 1.2 humans. 1.2 humans. And 20 agents, AI agents. What is a 0.2 human? Amelia, who's our chief A officer who runs everything, she spends 20% of her time managing the agents, orchestrating the agents, which is something I think people don't, they talk about, but they don't actually understand what that means. Yeah, okay, I definitely spend time there. Okay, so you used to have about 10 people full-time. Now you have 1.2 humans and you said 20 agents. 20 agents, yeah. And what you're describing is the business is doing very similarly to what it was when you had 10 humans. Now you have 20 agents, the business doing the same. Yeah, now listen, if I had two more great humans that wanted to join, don't get me wrong, and this is true of every fast-growing startup, I would hire them tomorrow, okay? And if you go to Vercel, if you go to Repl.it, if you go to, they're all gonna tell you the same. I was literally in London, we were just at our London event, we were with Maggie who's in the leadership of OpenAI. She said they just can't hire enough enterprise reps now. But what it is replacing are the mid-pack and below. The ones that don't really understand what Linear does. The ones that don't really know what a pull request is or exactly how Repl.it works. The AI can do better, not than the best, right? So I would love to have more humans, but I'm not gonna hire someone that after their third month in the job doesn't know what Saster does. I just can't do that one more time. And you don't need to, I don't think you need to. So we're not doing, this is the thing. AI is replacing the jobs people don't wanna do today and it is displacing the mid-pack and the mediocre. Their jobs are at risk. The best humans, it is true that they will get superpowers from AI, but I'm not sure the rest will. It's a cautionary tale. But I would love to have more than one. But at the end of the day, 1.2 humans plus 20 AI agents is doing about what 10 human GTMs did. Wow. Okay, I wanna spend time on the different agents you've built. But first of all, just kind of zooming out, having gone through this experience, how do you see the world of go-to-market changing next year in the coming years? All the plays work. It's the playbooks that are kind of broken in the age of AI. All the plays work. Outbound still works. Webinars still works. Podcasts still work, okay? Events still work. All this stuff works. All this stuff works. Why is 11 Labs out doing a roadshow, right? It works. Why do they go on Lenny's podcast? It works. So the plays all work. It's just the playbooks are broken because for folks that aren't in the age of AI, growth has decelerated so much that nothing seems to work, okay? It's working. It just works so much worse than 2021, but the plays still work. They just, they don't have enough ROI. There's not enough budget for old school SaaS from 2021. The ones that are blowing up, right? The Vercells, the Replits, the 11 Labs, they have so much demand, so much demand that they're still running the plays, but they're doing them differently. They're doing them from a hyper-PLG focus because there's so much demand, and they're often picking and choosing which prospects to contact. So like, for example, Bolt is probably a distant number three behind Replit and Lovable, right? But one of my old sales guys runs sales there, and I talked to him when they went from zero to 50 million in like six months. He's like, we honestly just have so many leads. We just are, half our job is picking which ones to respond to, right? And he's like, and he also is like, we closed a seven-figure deal we stole from Lovable because no one called them back at Lovable. So your traditional B2B SaaS company, even ones with billions of revenue, even the HubSpots and all of them, they don't have so many great leads, they don't call them back. So that is a different world, not easy, different world. And then this world where nothing seems to be working is just because the demand has evaporated, right? So both ends have an incentive in 2026 to push the limits for AI for go-to-market. The ones that are hyper-growing can't touch everybody, they can't do everything. Not everyone like Vercel will build their own internally. We can talk about why most folks should not build, they should buy. For the same reasons it's always been true in software, we can talk about it. At the low end, you still need humans, but ruthless efficiency is gonna be the name of the game for 2026. So anything where AI works, the demand is inexhaustible. So everyone's either looking for more efficiency or they just can't service the massive amount of inbound they have. And so maybe that doesn't totally answer your question or I got a little bit off track, but that's how the world's changing. Like when we first did this, which wasn't that long ago, in a way, pre the AI explosion, all B2B companies were kind of the same. Like they grew at somewhat different rates, some blew up faster like a Samsara, some took longer like a UiPath. But come on, they all kind of grew the same way for the same ACV, for the same deal size. Now, just like in venture and everything else, it's wildly bifurcated, right? You've got the low end, which is all about price increases and forcing things onto the base. And at the high end, we have something we've never seen since 2020, which is everyone in the market at once. Everyone in the market at once. This is something that people don't understand. Why are these companies doing so well? Why are they blowing up? Because it's not just at the software. We love this stuff, Lenny, right? All these new tools, we love them. But it's not one law firm looking at Harvey, it's everyone. It's everyone, right? It's not a few folks looking at video on the internet, it's everyone trying to make video on the internet. Because there's a lot of push from the top of like, we need to adopt AI, we need to be more productive. Now, everyone, not the traditional, like the traditional metric was in most categories, three to 5% of prospects would be in market a year. So you'd send a trillion emails and you'd do cold calls and you'd hope maybe 2026 was the time they were willing to dump Salesforce for your new product. So add all that up, 5%. In many categories, we're up north of 50% in market. So that just totally changes. The plays still work, showing up in person, actually knowing what the hell you're selling, knowing how to get through procurement, all of those that work. But other than these weird windows, artificial windows in 2020, we've never had so many people in market at once. And this is for AI products specifically or beyond that? Yeah, that have massive ROI, right? I need to bring a vibe code tool into my company, Lenny. Okay, go out and do the work, compare Repl.it, Lovable, and whoever else and buy one, okay? Harve, like why are Harvey and the others and Legora doing so? I mean, they're great tools, but everyone's like, we need to automate how we review contracts and documents with AI now. They want a leader and they're gonna do it. And that will slow down. Like not everybody can be in market every year. It's exhausting enterprise. So this is a version of the AI bubble that will end and we will revert in some ways to old school. But when everybody's in market, it just changes how you run the whole thing. So the fastest growing ones and the slowest growing ones, both have incentives to use AI here just for different reasons. How about the sales profession specifically? Are SDRs gonna be replaced fully, AEs? How do you see the future of the sales profession? The classic SDR junior kid that is hired out of college to send emails and respond to inbound emails and maybe get back to them later that day or the next day, we don't need them. We're not gonna need most of them. SDRs that knock on doors in a lot of industries aren't gonna be displaced, right? The email-based cadence SDR will be 90% displaced by AI next year. The people have different nomenclature. I call BDRs, folks that qualify leads coming in. The contact needs that we see, we have no need for them today. They should be extinct next year. There is no reason in the age of AI, I have to hit contact me, wait a day or two for a 21-year-old that doesn't know what Linear does to say, hey, what do you do? How much are you willing to pay me? Maybe I'll set up a call with Lenny later this week. There is no need to do that with AI. The AI, our AI alone, one of our agents, fully qualifies everybody on the website so they don't even know they're being qualified. It just sets up the meeting with the salesperson. So this SDR, this email-based SDR and this human qualifying leads, which is not good for the customer, it doesn't feel good to be qualified, does it? They will be mostly extinct next year. I'm guessing with your, now the AE, the classic human doing the sales, most of the tools aren't there yet for the most part. I think 70% of their jobs will be safe by the end of next year, but I think it will decline to 40 or 50. I don't think there's any reason, what we're seeing in other categories, a great agent can't close a deal too. If there's not a lot to negotiate on price and the agent knows the product better than a human, at least for folks like you and me, do you talk to a human in sales? Sometimes, I'd rather just chat with a really smart AI. Yeah, so that's all in progress now, but the classic and the tough part, and a lot of folks ask this question, Lenny, they say, okay, Jason, I see that in your data. How are we gonna build the sales profession if there's no entry-level jobs in SDRs and AEs? And that's a meta question across all of AI. We're already seeing AI concentrate strength in sort of mid-tier folks, isn't it? And we're already seeing lots of folks cut back on entry-level hires, Shopify's and others aside, where they'd rather have the six or seven-year-old engineer that's a cursor machine rather than train some kid. It's just more efficient today. kid. It's just more efficient today, right? I'm sure you see that across a lot of folks you talk to. It's going to happen in sales too. So the folks that know how to manage an agent, work with an agent, the folks that know their product for real, they're going to become more valuable and the rest are going to become less valuable. It's interesting because I'm an investor in a bunch of startups, as are you, and I'm actually seeing a lot of asks for go-to-market people, sales people. Do you think this is kind of a temporary because there's so much demand? They're like, oh, we need people to help and then this will start to become more AI over time? Or are they just looking for these really senior people that you're talking about? Well, listen, whether you're managing humans or orchestrating agents, you need leadership. We've yet to produce an autonomous CEO. I know folks talk about how on Twitter that AI will replace the CEO, but I don't know that that's literal as much as figurative, right? So we're still going to need the C-suite. We're still going to need VPs. I mean, it's become so much work to manage a million leads, right? A half million leads. So we need these leaders. The question is, and I've seen your call out there and I saw your tweet on it, the question is, how many of the folks that had the current playbooks are the right folks for the future? I'm thinking maybe 20% of the folks I talk to. 20% are still panicking about AI. And I'll tell you how to be in the 20% if you want to know. But I think very few like the Janine from Vercel are going to make the jump. So we'll see. There will be huge organizations, right? Like Denise just went from Slack and Salesforce after 14 years to be CRO OpenAI. She's working, going to be pretty high level, right? So she may not need to know how to implement the agents, but most of the folks your companies want to hire, I would just make sure they really want to roll up their sleeves and do the job of 2026, 2027, right? Just because they worked at Slack does not necessarily mean they have the skills at your startup. You said that you had some tips for folks to actually be this 20%. What are some, if someone's listening to this, like, oh man, my job is in trouble. What should I focus on? It's going to sound simple. It will work. And almost nobody's doing this. Pick a tool, an agent, an agentic tool to solve one of your problems. It doesn't almost, just one that's the most painful or the one that's most acute. It could be support. It could be SDR. It could be inbound qualification. Pick one, pick a leading vendor. I don't care which one it is. Okay. We can talk about how to pick a vendor, but pick a leading vendor that treats you well, that you like, and do it yourself. Train the agent, ingest the data, do the iterations, understand how the damn thing works. Okay. The folks that are lost today have never done it. We literally, we've turned into a consulting shop, Lenny. It's kind of crazy. I don't know what I think about it, but we literally just did a job. Amelia, our chief AI officer, and Nia, she drove it. We did a call with a public B2B company worth well over 10 billion that you would think is an AI leader. Okay. And we did a call with their team and they're like, we want to figure out this AI SDR stuff. We're like, great. You're like, we think we're just going to buy this tool and just give it to our SDRs to figure it out on their own. Okay. One, no chance. Two, we asked them, how much of this have you done yourself? Like, have you done it yourself? And it was just crickets on this call of 20 people. No one had done it theirself. So they thought they could take an untrained agent with no training and just magically give it to a bunch of young 20 year old SDRs. And this magically would sell on its own. It doesn't work that way. Right? So the way all these agents work is you, there's a lot of jargon, which is intimidating, ingestion, orchestration, training. It's not that hard, guys. It's just different. It's the same B2B stuff we've been doing for over a decade. You go to a website. Okay. You give it a URL of your website. You give it a URL of what your wiki is. You give it a URL of your training docs. Maybe you upload your prospectus. You upload a few documents. It ingests the data. And ingesting means it uploads. It means it processes the data and it does some other stuff you don't really need to know. Some bragging, some vectoring. It really doesn't matter. You upload some stuff and it kind of knows it and isn't great at it. And then it will turn it into, ideally it will turn it into questions. And you answer these questions and the more you answer and train it. Training is just answering questions and getting better and better. So first you upload a bunch of your stuff. Then you spend hours training it. Often with the help of a vendor, someone called a forward deploy engineer, which is a scary term. It means someone's going to help you do this. You upload your stuff. You try to get it right. And then you basically have to make sure it's right. QA, testing. And every day when that AISDR sends out emails and do practice emails, they will say some dumb things. Maybe it's hallucinations. It really doesn't matter what the technical term is. And you correct it. And if you do this for 30 days, then every day you spend an hour or two correcting those mistakes. By the 30th day, it's going to be pretty good. And this is, anyone can do this that has been in B2B or SAS. Anyone can do what I just described. It is not that different than other things we've done. It's just sequenced differently. But nobody does this. Everyone's panicked. You can go do this. Pick any tool. Pick AgentForce. Pick Qualified. Pick Artisan. Pick whatever you want. If you can go do this and get it live into production, you're hyper-employable. All the companies you talked about that need a GTM person, they will hire you. You could magically be their chief agentic GTM officer. Almost anyone can do this if they want to. It's just going to take a month of your time. And it might take you 50 or 60 hours plus qualifying the vendor. And in the old days, like when we first did our podcast, you'd hire an agency and disappear. That's how you do this stuff. The agencies don't know how to do this. You've got to do it yourself. But if you do, man, you will rock. You will just rock. And you will learn. You will learn. And you will learn the limits. And you will learn what an agent can do and where it can't do. And then you will learn how to do the next one. So we're pretty far on AgentForce, which is Salesforce's one, which Mark talks a lot about. But we're probably one of the only organizations of our size on it. I will tell you a cheat code, which is pretty interesting. So we've got we had three of these agents working for sales. After training it and learning it and spending months trying to learn it, we got it down to one prompt. And prompt is another almost intimidating word. A string of text that describes what you want this thing to do. OK. We took that prompt and gave it to AgentForce. Then a day was pretty good. So you will if you can do one of these, it'll be really hard. It'll be brutal. Then the second one will be easier. And then you're going to be like the master of the universe in A.I. if you can do it yourself. But if you're waiting for people on your team to do it. If you're waiting for an agency to do it, I think you're going to be out of a job. Right. So this is like everyone comes to us as experts. We're only experts because we did it 20 times. I think what might be helpful here, actually, is to do a tour, kind of a quick tour of the agents that you've built and what they do, which ones have been most impactful. And then as you do that, what products you use, what powers these agents that you like and maybe don't like. If anyone goes to sastr.ai agents, you'll see everything we built. It's all bulleted out. You can copy us and I'll walk you through it. But two caveats are things that I built a lot of stuff in Repl.it. We can talk about it for fun. I'm like a top 1 percent user. I love it. None of the GTM stuff we built ourselves. Don't build it yourself. You're not Vercel. You don't have a full time wicked awesome engineer that wants to build this. Could all this stuff be built yourself? It's the same idea of building your own notion. You could do it, but don't do it. These products are expensive. They're not so expensive it's worth. And then maintaining the pace of innovation is so fast, even if you can hire someone to build it internally, it will become obsolete if you're not careful in a couple of months. So we've built a lot of stuff we could talk about. I built a calculator to do startup calculations, used 800,000 times in 90 days. For a valuation. Yeah, for valuations. I built a pitch deck reviewer that's reviewed almost 3,000 pitch decks. Lots of fun stuff, but none of the GTM stuff we built ourselves. None of it. So just a caveat, don't build it yourself unless you're Vercel, unless you have a reason. That was a great pod. It was wonderful. Don't do it. Don't do that. Basically, unless you have awesome go to market engineers. And they really want to do it. They really are chomping at the bit to do it. Don't do it. So I started, and this is not where other folks would start, but there's some learnings. There's an app called Delphi, which makes digital clones, and you used it for the LennyBot a long time ago. LennyBot.com. What's that? Yeah, LennyBot.com. LennyBot.com. Yeah, check it out. I saw it a long time ago. It was interesting, but it didn't click. And then Brian Halligan, who's the founder and chairman of PubSpot, did one too. They're Sequoia backed, and he was working at Sequoia, so he helped them early on. And then I kind of had a magic moment, and this is the way it works in AI, when I saw the combination of the two. So yours was People should love LennyBot, because if folks haven't tried it, try it. It is ingested. I know a scary term for some. It is ingested every single interview you've ever done, right? Every word of content you've written. And it can combine them all together. It can combine the Vercel story and what you did with Dylan at Figma, and it can synthesize the knowledge, and it's pretty good. It's pretty good. What I liked about Brian's better than yours, though, was that it was Brian. And LennyBot is kind of Lenny, but it's also kind of all your guests, right? I think that's the superpower of it, right? That's the way I think about it. It's not just my intelligence. It's the lessons of every single person I've had on this podcast. So it's great. But I thought, hey, maybe I could finally do one that's in between the two. I've been a founder, and I've written 10,000 pieces of content, so that's a little bit like Brian, but I have more than Brian. And I'm not Lenny in terms of productivity, but I've got a lot of voices, so I'm like, I'll try it. I used Delphi. I instantly broke it because I had too much data to ingest. It took about a week to get going. And it worked, and it's just like you. Some people spend hours a day on Digital Jason in another browser, and they don't do what they do with Lenny, but they'll ask about their sales woes and what to do with their sales team, and they'll upload LinkedIns and ask if they should hire people. And then a curious thing happened, which is that because we do these events, people started to use it for questions for the events. Hey, how do I get a refund? Hey, can I get a discount? Where is the San Mateo County Fairgrounds? So Jason Liza's really in the San Francisco Bay Area. Who's speaking? And there's endless questions. And we used to use Prefin Intercom, and we're so busy, we would answer two weeks later. I mean, it was the worst support ever. And the agent just started doing support on its own. And then it did this thing where it sold sponsorship on its own. So one place to start if you haven't started is in support. And you don't have to buy Sierra, and you don't have to buy DecaCon necessarily, and you don't have to buy Finn. But one potential place to start is your support. Can you do great 24-7 support? Can you? Most apps can't. In fact, some of the worst defenders are AI leaders. They have no support at all on their website. So that's one place to start. And then the next place we started... So for us, the low game, the next place we started is, hey, we want to try Outbound. Because we don't have 1.2 million names like you have, but we have like 400,000. And we have data on them. So we wanted to say, hey, come back to our Sastr event. So we didn't know what to use. And I'll tell you something. So we picked a YC company called Artisan. They've gone from nothing to 10 million this year. We picked them, but this is important why. They were a sponsor at Sastr. We didn't know. And they offered to help us the most. This is the critical insight. We didn't know if Artisan was the... I have opinions now. We hadn't deployed them. But another vendor, the CRO, argued with us. He said, I need 100k up front before I help you. Another one said they were scared of Sastr. They didn't want bad PR. If it failed, fair. We don't want to be your first. And Artisan said, we'll do it. And we had nothing. And here's the interesting thing about agentic stuff. It's like support. If you have nothing, it doesn't have to change the world. If you're literally doing nothing, and you start to do something that's high ROI, you're going to get return. So we did that one. We trained it. It's great. We did about 60,000 emails. Saw pretty high rates. Then we said, well, we'll try inbound. We don't want to have this depressing experience where a salesperson quits and it's two weeks later until they talk to it. So we used this vendor called Qualified, which was founded by the XCMO of Salesforce that does a lot now, but mostly focused on Qualified stuff. That immediately worked. We had someone at 11 p.m. on Saturday night that wanted to sponsor, and they sponsored, and it worked. And it worked great. But again, they helped us. And this is an agent that is emailing with the prospect, selling them on a sponsorship. Well, it's literally, if you go to sastrannual.com, and anyone should buy a product like this. It doesn't have to be qualified. And the bubble, the intercom-like bubble, is tuned to qualifying inbound prospects, folks that say, hey, I want to sponsor Lenny's podcast. Sorry, we're sold out through 2028, but if you want to be on the wait list, sign up here. Or even better for us, it would qualify folks out that weren't a good fit. It would save so much time, and it would do it 24 hours. Then it would just set up the meeting. So the reason that was a great second one was because no one was willing to do that. No human was willing to pick up the phone and talk to these people. So it was such low-hanging fruit. But the key to the first two, and if you're going to pick an agent, is they offered to help the most. At the end of the day, Lenny, these are all running on Cloud4. They're all basically using a bunch of APIs mashed together. That's not new to software, right, mashing a bunch of APIs into the hood. But deep down, I don't want to trigger anybody. Many of the leaders in AI GTM, they're more similar than different. They're more similar than different under the hood. It doesn't mean the features are parity. So because you have to train them, because it takes a month, the world's best software, with no help training you, is not one 99% of people should buy. So today, in the old days, we would qualify the best software. We would make a matrix, and we would do their thing, and we would compare features and do it. You've got to do another column, which is your forward deployed engineer or solution architect or your SE, and talk to them and say, who is going to help me? And before you write a check, get on the phone with Lenny and see if Lenny's really going to do deployment. And if Lenny rocks, and the other vendor is better and won't help you, don't do it. And that's why we've had so much success is the first two we did, yeah, they were startups, so they worked harder. But Artisan and Qualified just did the work with us. And we're not stupid, but it was work. We needed help. And so that's what I learned is you have this partner, the FD and the vendor, and a lot of them actually might not take your business if they don't think they can help you. The best ones turn away a lot of business today, which is interesting. An interesting learning from this for folks is a lot of folks say, and they would say to you if you use these, Lenny, they say you have too much data. Sastr is not like us. We're a startup. We're tiny. You have 400,000 people in your database. Lenny has 1.2 million. It's not like that's, I got, I only have 300 customers, okay, or 200 customers. What I've learned is that's wrong. If you have 300 customers, how many folks have come to your website ever? 30,000? How many leads do you have? How many folks in your database? How many folks have you tried to reach out before? More than a human's doing. And then all of a sudden they have a ha-ha moment. Like how many folks do you have in your HubSpot, right? How many folks do you have in your CRM? They look it up. 31,000. Okay. How many folks do you have talking to them? Zero. You don't need the scale of numbers that you and I have to make these agents work. You need a little bit of scale and you need a little bit of traffic, but not as much as you think. So all the learnings we have, a lot of folks that honestly they don't want to do the work. They're like, well, Sassner has a lot of scale. They have a lot of years. It's not true. And it turns out to also be like true with the training. I'm sure you've seen it with LennyBot. Like I thought having 12 years of content made the difference. Nah, it's having like a couple months of really good content and a long tail beyond that, but you don't need as deep training and as much as you think. You just need a bit to be really good. So anyone that has any scale whatsoever, even a couple million revenue and up can benefit from these products, right? So we did whore general, general bot got us to a certain place. Then we did SDR for outbound. Then we did inbound. And then we did agent force really early with Salesforce. And we didn't know what to do with agent force at first, right? But we decided we would reactivate the folks that sales decide was not worth their time. Folks that reached out to sales. And this is true at every startup. We even just talked about some of the AI leaders where a human says, you know what? I don't think this is enough commission. I'm kind of busy. I got a $4 million deal with meta going. We just took Asian force just on those. Okay. And we trained it on very similar prompt. It had 70% response rate. Those are people that were dying to interact with us. 70% is so good. And this is something humans were not willing to do. It wasn't worth their time. And I know this sounds critical and maybe I'm going to trigger some sales folks, but the reality is if you're in a lead rich environment, okay? And I think that there's lead rich and lead poor environments for even big companies, but startups, like there's not enough, but eventually you become lead rich. Okay. Reps just don't follow up with a lot of them. It's just human nature. It's even you, I bet more folks want to sponsor the newsletter than you can let in, right? Do you pick up the phone with all of them? I replied all of them and then we just tell them we're full, but yeah. But you see the point, right? Even your scale, you see the point, right? Yeah. Yeah. It gets challenging. And let's imagine all of a sudden you had six months of inventory available. I bet if you spooled up an agent and emailed all those folks back automatically, you'd fill up the docket, right? So anyone can do these sorts of, you think you can't, unless you're so small that you have sufficient humans to talk with every potential lead, every person that touches your website, every person that clicks with anything you can benefit from AI. So that was kind of our journey. And then we've done a lot of other niche stuff. I'll tell you at the end where we are today, maybe this is almost too much learning is we're at the point where maybe we can't do one more because right now, when we did Delphi in the beginning, when I copied you with Delphi, even me, I spent almost an hour a day training it in the beginning because when we started to use it for support, it had an initial, it started telling people the wrong dates. Okay. And we could talk about why. So I had to fix it and it made some mistakes. And so when people started to use it, I had to spend an hour each morning firing up Delphi, reviewing the issues and answering them. I don't have to do it anymore. It's well-trained. We have so many agents going in so many emails that Amelia has to spend, you know, 10 to 15 hours a week reviewing the outputs. And it's exhausting because agents work all night and they work weekends and they work on Christmas. It's a big issue, right? This is not being the orchestrator or the chief AI person is not a good job for lazy people because the agents never sleep. Right? So it is so much time now to manage these 20. This is interesting. We can't, I don't know when we're going to do the 21st. We may be full and for folks that are startups, this is a reason to go harder because everyone was in market this year. Okay. Everyone, and it's going to keep happening, but business process change remains an issue for business software, business process change at the end of the day. And so many founders get this wrong. And 99% of sales folks, they don't care about business process change. Sales folks, they just want to get their commission. It doesn't really matter what you pay for an app for a customer. As long as it's fair, it's all the work to do to change the way you do your business. Right? And so we're even, we're at the point where we're overloaded, right? And so just be aware if you're, if you're a startup or even Salesforce or HubSpot, maybe, maybe close those deals in the next 12 months because the window may close where people say, listen, that's the coolest agent I've ever seen. I'm exhausted from the last five. I had to do five last year. I just can't literally cannot bring one more app into my enterprise. And so that's going to be a headwind that today, everything seems like it has tailwinds, right? Everything's on fire, but people are going to get exhausted for having so many agents exhausted, man. Okay. There's so much to learn from in what you just shared. Something I definitely want to ask about as people hear this, agents sending off emails, agents talking to your clients, we get, I get a ton of emails that are terrible. Yes. What have you learned about making these outbound emails good and not just, you know, noise? How do you make these conversations high quality? How do you, it's a really, really, really good question. So the two, maybe the two biggest learnings, take your best person on your sales team, the best marketer you have, take their email copy and use that as the template for your AI. If you, the, the, the terrible mistake people make people all, everyone in 2024 said these products didn't work. There were two reasons they didn't work. It was before cloud four, right? Net replica didn't work. Lovable didn't exist. Gamma didn't really work before 2025, right before cloud, like the LMS reached this point where they would work for these use cases. So that was one threshold. The other thing that happened in 2024 is the vendors kind of lied and said, just turn the product on. It'll get you revenue. No, no need to train it. No need to do anything. We'll just do everything as this magic AI savant. It's not, it's not the way it works this way. What you do is an agent will be successful and go to market and sales today. If you take what works for your best person train, I know this seems like a scary term, but it's not upload that text. Okay. Train the agent on it and let it iterate an AB test from that agents are really good at AB testing. They're really good. Agents are really good at A-B testing. They're really good at creating variants. A-I is like, ask Claude or Chet for a variant of your best email. Say, give me three versions of my best email. They'll be pretty good. That's all the agent has to do is take your best email you ever sent and stick it through an API. I'm making it sound simpler than it is, but not by too much. So train it, and then what it'll do is then give it some data sources. And the data source could be as simple as Salesforce. Okay? And then if it has any data on Lenny, it can pull data, and it can lightly personalize that email. Okay? And even better, a lot of these products track all the visitors to your website. So they can see what's happened, and they use other APIs, and so they can personalize your emails more. And so, what ends up happening is the emails that the A-Is write are pretty good. Okay, if you're getting terrible emails, it's a poorly trained product from a bad vendor. You should be getting emails when you get them, and you're like, this isn't as good as Jason said on Lenny's podcast, but it's pretty good. Okay? That's what AI can do today. And the magic is if a human isn't even doing that, or if your mediocre humans are worse. And I'll tell you, you know, one of the first lessons I learned when my last startup was acquired by Adobe, Sam Blond was one of our sales leaders. Then he became CRO of Brex and others, and we inherited a bunch of reps from Adobe. We didn't ask for them. And he's like, my God, I never read everyone's emails before. That is the worst emails that I've ever read. So, the AI can do better than that. The AI can do better than that. And so, you just train it on your best, and it'll be pretty good. And so, you just haven't seen a well-trained agent. And then what I learned, and then another question folks ask is, okay, Jason, that email was pretty good. It wasn't as great as you said on stage, but it was pretty good. But do you tell people it's an AI, or do you hide it? And what we learned from sending hundreds of thousands is it doesn't matter. People, we're in an age where people don't really care as long as the email adds value, and they know they're gonna get an instant response. We've tried both. We've tried to say, hey, it's digital Amelia or digital Jason. We've tried to fake it. And what we've learned is now we just send it. We just send it, and no one cares. And sometimes we'll get, especially founders, we'll get an email back. They'll be like, ha ha, I can tell this is an AI, but it's pretty good. Can I do a meeting? That kind of says it all, doesn't it? So we're worrying, we're creating issues as excuses to not do the work. Your point about how human salespeople's emails are not great already is really powerful, because all we're looking at is these okay emails from AI, and you're saying, okay, but humans, they're not actually that much better if you actually look at them. My God, they're not. Listen, the best outbound emails you've ever gotten. Like, for example, I know you've done a bunch of investments. A lot of them are inbound to you. They want Lenny involved, right? Some of them are just so good, you can't believe it, right? A few. How many are that? But a lot of them aren't, right? So the best founders and the best sales execs and the best SDRs will spend two hours researching an email. Okay, who exactly did IBM should I reach out to? What did IBM, who else exactly is a competitor that's using them? Exactly what was the ROI? They'll give you a perfect story. Like, you get the world's best story. Here's your competitor, here's how they use it, here's exactly when they bought, here's the ROI, here's the case study. That's a great email, right? How many 21-year-old SDRs do that? No, they use an automation tool, whether it's Outreach or Gong or SalesOft or Mixmax or an AI base, but they do no work. It's not gonna be that great. It's not gonna be that great. So that's why, people get a little confused. The bar for good enough for AI, GTM, it's not as high as we think. It's just like a facsimile of your best person reproduced as best we can. It's gonna beat your mid-pack person. It's gonna beat the person that literally knows nothing about your product. Is this an opportunity for humans to continue to thrive this layer of much better emails? This came up when we had Jen Abel on the podcast. She asked her, like, what tools do you use? What do you use? She's like, nothing. I just write it out artisanally. And it works really well because everyone's sending AI emails. Is this just like where go-to-market salespeople still can exist, this much better email? Or is that also gonna go away? If you have a high-performing human team hunting high dollar value logos, and this is classic stuff. Lenny and I and Jen are in a conference room. We put a whiteboard of the 50 best folks that we want to sponsor Lenny's podcast. There's only 50, okay? And we write Notion and we write Linear and we write Rappler. There's only 50. And we're all trying to sell them these new sponsorships. They're half a million bucks for two years. Take it or leave it, okay? And we divide them up and we say Lenny's best at this. Jason's best at Jen. And we each take 15 or 17. Dude, no need for AI there, is there? Agreed. No need for AI today. Because the ROI is really high. Yeah, and we're great. And we know that the three of us are different. Three of us are really different. It's gonna crush and we don't need any. Maybe one of us will take our emails and run it through Claude real quick just to make it better, right? Or what I do is I do it for more research. Like I write the world's best email and then I say, Claude, how could I make this better? Do a little research, it will still be better. So that's an AI boost Jen should be doing. I love Jen, but she should at least be making it better. But for our 45, 50 best ones, we don't need it. What if it's 5,000? Her approach just doesn't work. So yes, a lot of the stuff we're talking about lends itself to higher volume sales. But as everyone gets bigger, it's all higher volume. There's just so much volume as you scale, right? So yes, if you're tiny and you have three prospects and you're just getting into Y Combinator, maybe you don't need these tools, but we graduate out of that more quickly. And the bespoke thing for Jen, I think, will work for high dollar value enterprise, but outside of that, I don't know, man. You just can't touch enough people. Humans can't touch enough people. And humans don't want to do the work. They don't want to talk to the mediocre leads. They literally, I'll tell you an example. Like when I was in London, I wanted to buy a $10,000 product, okay? And I'm literally in London and we're doing SaaS. I don't have any time, right? I get confused with the time zones, Lenny. I don't know if you do. I don't even know what time it is in the Bay Area. So I just emailed this rat at the end of the year. I'm like, just send me the contract, I want to buy it. But I have two questions. I have two questions I want answered. I told him these two questions and they weren't even about price. Took him three days to get back to me and he introduced me to someone else on his team. It wasn't worth his time. 10 grand wasn't enough because there's not enough commission for him, right? So he introduced someone else to me and the other guy said, I can't answer your questions unless you'll get on the phone. And I said, I'm in London, I'm traveling. If you will, ordinarily I would have ended this, but it's adjourned. I'm like, if you answer my two questions, I will buy your product for 10K. He's like, I need to get on the phone. Like AI is better than that. This is not Jen's and the whiteboards thing of doing it. So it will, at least it will fill, even if Jen's process is right, AI can fill all the gaps. What about all the sponsors? The leads we didn't follow up with it. We got a 70% response rate, right? I mean, the Jen's are diamond in a rough and whatever the expression is, they're diamond, there's not that many of them. There's not that many of them. So I love her and I love what she says. And I agree with 99% of it, but here's a related point. Most of us don't have the hottest brands and we don't have the most elite CROs running them. So we end up settling for not the best sales team. That's the truth. Most 99% of the best sales reps want to work just at the hottest brands. And the minute you're not, the minute your star fades just a little bit, they don't want to work. They immediately want to jump to the next one. It's just, there's a lot of reasons why. So bear in mind, 99% of the world cannot attract a team of Jen's for better. It's just practice, even I can't. Even you could, Lenny, you're so great, but even a lot of folks that would want to go work for you if you wanted to hire someone, they'd be like, well, I love the, but what do I have to do? I've got to sell newsletter spot. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I want to be CRO and lovable. I love Lenny, but is that really going to get me there? Right? So we, AI can beat those. But AI can't beat the enterprise thing. AI, I have no idea how AI is going to do in-person sales. I, someone smarter than me is going to have to answer that. But a lot of, you know, you have such a huge audience, Lenny, but I still think most of your folks are in tech and doing tech sales. Tech is the largest segment of our economy and growing. Right? So for the most part, these tools will work for tech sales. Tech sales is over the Zoom, over the phone, over email. We're not, we should knock on more doors. We should do more in-person. All the data I've ever collected shows everything closes at a higher rate if you go in-person. It's just not, but in tech, it's basically as much automation as we can get away with in GTM. What I think might be helpful is just like, let me zoom out for a second and describe what you've gone through here. So you used to have, I love this visual you had of the desks of the sales folks in your office, where you had inbound SDRs, you had outbound SDRs, maybe a support person. And three or four AEs, account executives. Okay, and three or four AEs who kind of take these leads and then close the deal. And so now it's just like, instead of humans, there's an agent doing each of these jobs. You have this inbound, this outbound agent that's just sending emails, trying to find potential leads. An inbound agent that's talking to people that are interested, trying to get them more excited. And then is there an AE agent, or I forget what that is. That's what I'm still learning. We have one full-time AE plus 20% of Amelia's time, so it's 1.2, doing what five or six AEs do. I see. No SDR, BDRs. Got it. So basically all the top of funnels is AI. Yes. And there's one human now that takes all this, all the great stuff and just closes the deals, negotiates pricing, things like that. Yeah, maybe 1.2, just to say, but yeah, let's call it 1.2. 1.2, yeah, so that's where I wanted to go. So Amelia, so that feels really important. Just somebody, not necessarily full-time, but just staying on top of these agents, watching the emails, making sure quality's high, making sure they're running correctly. Talk about just how important that part is to this whole operation. It's critical, and people are posting on LinkedIn that they want to hire these GTM engineers, or I don't think that role exists today. I worry when I see these roles. I think today, and listen, if we get together in 18 months, we'll update this, because the world's changing so fast, right? I think today, 95% of 100, you've got to promote someone internally. It's got to be a nerd, someone that likes marketing and sales and is quant. A lot of B2C people aren't, frankly, good at this stuff, because in B2C, sales and marketing are kind of the same thing, you know? But someone that's a nerd, that loves to sit in front of data for a couple hours a day and route data and manage these agents, and they can come out of product, they can come out of marketing, but maybe they can come out of rev ops, but they better be nerdy. Odds they come out of regular sales, approach zero. So I would find someone on my team that raises their hand and says, I've already done this, okay? I've already written 10 apps in Repl.it, and I love Vercel, and I did this, and I've already tried these ones on my own. Can I please manage these for you? And then have them be your chief orchestration officer. But it is a new skillset. It really is. And ultimately, finding someone that's going to spend an hour to two a day to manage these agents is the new frontier for us to figure out. They do not, they operate autonomously, but not without constant oversight and iteration. That's the confusing part. And you just, if you just buy one of these products and disappear, you will have zero ROI. So maybe too long of an answer, but that's critical. And I just think, unfortunately, you're gonna, you have to grow this resource at home today. You have to, even with Virginia Vercel that basically grew the resource at home, right? We're not all Vercel, but I just haven't seen it. Everyone's posting for this job, but we need veterans. We don't have veterans yet, right? And going back to earlier in the conversation, if that is you, you're gonna be super employable next year. You're gonna have so many job offers. You're not gonna know what to, you're gonna have to beat them off. And when you think of, is Amelia, would you describe her as a go-to-market engineer or do you, is that a different role chief? I would say now, yeah, yeah. But she knows the product's cold, cold. She knows how all the quirks work, how all the agents work. And here's, this is a complicated issue, but an interesting one. If you're running multiple agents, okay, someone's gotta segment which of the base the agents are working with, or they're gonna have tons of conflict. You need someone smart enough, and any like really nerdy demand-gen marketer that loves data can do this, but you've gotta segment your base. Otherwise, it just becomes a mess. There are no people on X and the internet talk about these master agents that can manage agents, that can manage agents. We're not there yet, okay? Maybe, like I'm excited for it, but we're not there yet. So just even figuring out how to segment your base so you can do inbound, re-targeting, re-marketing, new marketing, so that is complicated. But most badass marketers kinda understand that. They're already doing A-B testing, segmenting their bases. This is not new, is it? No. No, yeah. But turning it on with zero work is a F, like there's just no chance. This episode is brought to you by Datadog, now home to EPO, the leading experimentation and feature flagging platform. Product managers at the world's best companies use Datadog, the same platform their engineers rely on every day to connect product insights to product issues like bugs, UX friction, and business impact. 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Request a demo at datadoghq.com slash Lenny. That's datadoghq.com slash Lenny. I'm looking back at some notes I took as you were talking of just like advice for each function almost of how to be successful in this future that you're seeing. So I'll try to summarize briefly. So your advice for salespeople is use the agents, build one yourself, try to train it, help it run, run alongside you so that you understand these tools and be the person within the sales organ that's. For leadership, I advise that. For leaders. I don't know that if your average SDR or junior salesperson is gonna get budget for their own agent. If they do, run with it. The problem, Lenny, is that all these agents that work today, they have forward-deployed engineers, they have training, so they're all like 50 grand and up. 50 grand, 80 grand. I mean, people pay more, don't get me wrong. But kind of the entry-level point for these is sort of like 50 grand plus 25K for the FDE or 75. They want, even Clay, I think, starts at 100K a year. So if you're a bigger organization, that's cheaper than a human, right? It's a tall, but there are no $99 a month products, which has a lot of it. They're trying, and I think it's gonna come. They don't auto-train yet particularly well. And so I don't know that junior folks are gonna have access to 100K budget, unfortunately, right? So that advice is for the VPs, the folks that are worried. A lot of them are worried that I'm obsolete, right? That I'm obsolete, that I'm not gonna get that role at Vercel or OpenAI. So keep going. The advice for the junior folks is to embrace it. Whatever tools your organization is using, become the best person at working with that agent, and you will automatically get more efficient. Yeah, is it annoying that you walk into work and the agent set up four calls for you and maybe you only wanted to do two of them? Embrace it, embrace it, because you'll be twice as productive, right? I was literally talking yesterday. There's a company I'm on the board of called Owner.com, which is kind of like AI for restaurants. They're crossing 100 million in revenue going really quickly. It's got 100 folks on the sales team, Kyle does. With AI, he's targeting three to 5 million in revenue per rep. Three to 5 million. Honestly, if this was three or four years ago for a similar company, it would be three to 500K. That's an order of magnitude more efficiency. Still 100 reps, right? 100 reps. He's gonna need more to hit the number for next year, but three to 5 million per rep. So if you're that guy that can work with those tools, you become more valuable. But if you fight it, if you don't wanna do that extra meeting, if you fight it, there's another tool we use for RevOps. There's two we use. One's called Momentum. One's called Attention. They're both great. They're very similar. And what it does is every single thing a human does is automatically tracked in your CRM instantly. Every real time. There've been tools that have done some of this before, but literally everything. And when we rolled it out, and it happened with a few other folks I know, one of the folks on that old team quit that day. Quit the day we rolled out the AI RevOps. You know why? He hadn't done anything in 30 days. The gig was up. Every day he would show up to our standup and he said, yeah, I'm doing outbound. And I'm really working on that deal with Vercell. And nothing would close. And then we said, oh, and he quit that day. So my point is he didn't lean into it. Lean into it. Now you're gonna have total transparency on your day. Granola is a side example for everything, but AI is gonna track everything you do. Like if you wanna fight it, you wanna fight the future, good luck doing it. The future, good luck to you, but embrace it and you will leap ahead of your peers that aren't embracing this. Embrace all the transparency, all the leads, all the work it makes you do because you can't close 10 times as much doing the same amount of work, can you? Nope. We do more work with AI. I'm working the hardest I've ever worked. With all these agents and all the output they create, and Amelia does a lot of it, but even I am working the hardest, but it's better, but it's not less work. It's more work. The agents are so productive you have to keep up. So sorry to interrupt, for the managers, buy an agent, deploy it yourself. Don't have someone else do it. Do everything from training to ingestion to orchestration. Those terms will be less scary to you. For the junior folks, be the guy, the gal, the person that loves these tools and that is the first person to embrace whatever it is. Don't fight it. Awesome. Okay, for founders in startups, what I'm hearing is be that forward-deployed engineer, have that person, that sales engineer that's sitting there helping companies. This is basically an opportunity to compete with bigger players where you're actually there helping them set things up. Like all the companies you mentioned, none of them are big companies. They're all startups, which is really interesting. It is true. I will say it is working with Salesforce the way we are. It's the way I haven't worked with Salesforce since it was the first product I bought, I mean, 20 years ago, dude. When I bought Salesforce 20 years ago, I got everything that was hands-on. I bought two seats. I remember back in the day talking to my rep. I'm like, don't talk to me. You don't have time. I'm buying two seats. It's like, no, no, no, this is what we do. I'm here for you. I'm gonna help you get your app on the AppExchange. We're gonna do all of it. And that went away. It's kind of back, right? And Mark's got 2000 folks doing this at Salesforce now. So we have a forward-deployed engineer. I'm not even sure it makes economic sense. And maybe in two years, someone like you or I would not get an FD, but the big companies are figuring it out. But yes, pick a vendor that will make you a success with an FD, right? And people throw this term out, but again, it's just someone that's gonna make sure you get trained and onboarded with your product for real. But yeah, so startups have a motivation to do this in a way that maybe some of the incumbents really are still figuring out. Which is a big opportunity for startups to actually do this. And this actually resonates very closely to what Jen suggested for startups, which is sell services initially, just like do work for them, solve their problem, not with software, to get things started, to grow that into a massive contract with them. That is software. You mean land and expand, start with a smaller deal and grow it? Start, no, like afford a person sitting there doing this work with them, essentially what you're describing. Don't just like, we have software, go try using it. It's like, we will have someone on our team helping you figure this out. And maybe there's not even software yet to do all these things, but we'll have them do it for you. And then the software will take on more and more of that work over time. I think that's always been great advice. And startups have always been great at this. Like in the early days, the CO does it, it's doing support, the CO's onboarding you. I think what's different today is the agent will fail without training and onboarding this product. It will fail, like it will never work. So it becomes an imperative if you want to win. Like you need, this term has been bandied about too much, but you need a team of humans. We can call them forward deployed engineers that make a hundred percent sure that when the agent is turned on, it's awesome. That's your job as a founder. awesome. That's your job as a founder, make sure it's awesome. Versus in the old days that even when I built one of the first e-signature services that was so easy to use, we'd have some customers take them two years to go live, big customers. That's just not okay in the age of AI, right? Yeah. And these forward deploy engineers, is that just another name for sales engineer or is that a different sort of background? It can be. And I think all this nomenclature is confusing, man, all this orchestration and ingestion. I think Palantir is obviously the single most successful public B2B company at the moment, right? Maybe Databricks and a few others will beat them in the next wave of IPOs. But their idea for forward deployed engineers is similar, but these are nine figure deals. Most of us aren't doing a hundred million dollar deals. So the idea that you'll have Gary Tan and an army of folks out in the office for six months, getting the software to work, that sort of inspires the idea, but it's really, sure, it could be a sales engineer or a solution architect, but the difference is the SEs that a lot of us worked with in the days were resources. And often there was also on a classic resource of like eight sales reps to one SE. So the eight reps would be a pod and one SE would be responsible and you'd kind of have to fight to get Jason or Lenny's time to help the eight reps. This is inverted. The FTE is number one job is to make the customer a success, okay? I was literally the other doing a presentation in AI leader that closed a $3 million deal. The FTE did it all himself. Sales wasn't even involved in the deal. They went on site, they got the deployment going, they tuned it, everything. All sales did was manage it through the procurement process, okay? That's pretty different than a guy answering some questions for the humans, right? So it is a combination of customer success and SE or whatever, but it is really, I mean, frankly, it's just being a classic consultant that gets the product done on day one. That's the difference is that when you go live, it works. When you go live, it works. And it's a fancy name for a bunch of folks on your team that when it goes live, the AI agent actually works. So you have a hundred percent success rate instead of like the 5% rate of 2024. So those people, but they do need to be technical. I don't know if they need to be engineers. It can really vary based on, I love it when they're kind of like mediocre engineers that are in love with the product. That's my favorite type of FTE. They don't really want to code much anymore, but they did code and they just love your product. But I don't think it can be someone with no product chops, but all different folks can work, but they've got to know the product cold. But yeah, I would, startups, I mean, the term is thrown around, you need four folks that will just make sure that on go live, the product works, your agentic product works. That's what you need. I think it might be useful to close out this conversation is to kind of go through, what are the things that are changing? Like maybe a handful of things that are changed, that are now going to be different in the world of sales, go to market. And what are a few things that are just going to stay the same? Yeah, let's go through it. Obviously, support is the first one to have changed. It's obviously permanently changed with AI, right? Whatever vendor you look at, 50 to 80% of support is done by AI. And we don't always think about support as GTM, but it is, it's the start of a customer journey. It's very important to the customer journey. So if you're skeptical, go look at, support has changed permanently. So that train's left the station. Really, as we record this, not much has changed in sales. I mean, I do think the stuff we've talking about is the bleeding edge. I do think the classic cadence-based SDR running campaigns through a tool, him or herself, will be mostly extinct with 12 months. There is no reason AI can't do a better job than that role. The classic qualifier, qualifying inbound leads, which is a crappy experience for customers, should be similarly extinct within 12, mostly extinct in 12 months. The rest, we're going to wait and see. I think what we do know for reps, for sales reps, everyone wants to be even more efficient in the next 12 months. There's a lot of reasons people want to be more, again, at the bottom end, it's cost, it's profitability pressures. At the high end, it's cultural. We just don't want 200 reps running around Vercel or Ripple that don't know what the product does. Just the company owner, 3 to 5 million per rep is a lot different than 3 to 500,000. So you have to adjust as a rep. There's still, every AI leader can't hire enough reps like we talked about, but you're going to have to adjust to being geometrically, if not exponentially, more productive with help from AI. So you have to embrace these tools for real. A lot of folks, a lot of old school GTM leaders are like, AI isn't going to hurt sales reps. It's just going to give them superpowers. The best ones, yes. The mediocre are just going to be more mediocre. So I think the A is we will always have salespeople, but being a people person is not enough anymore. You know how you can tell a mediocre salesperson, Lenny? Ask them what they're really good at. I'm a people person, Lenny. You know how good I am, Lenny? I'm on text with 10 of my best customers. I'm a people person. What are the toughest technical objections you have at your product? What? What? They don't know, but they're a people person. This is like golf 3.0. It's not enough. It's insufficient. So people are becoming obsolete in sales. Field sales, no idea how AI is going to impact that if you're out in the field. I mean, the enterprise leaders are hiring more field salespeople than ever. Salesforce is hiring more than ever. And knocking on doors still works, man. So don't know the answers there. But the office worker and the work from home worker, AI is going to take as much of your job or make you as much better as it can, and you've got to embrace it. So I would say from support to knocking on doors, we're going to go from 80% to 0%. What about phone calls? It's a great question, and we should have hit it. Obviously, there's plenty of robocall and regulatory issues around it. Certainly, a lot of startups are breaking the rules anyway. I would say this. Listen, there's phone calls and there's even SMS. There's limits to how much SMS you can automate. A lot of old school businesses don't even check emails. I mean, you're working in the shop floor. So those are unanswered questions. People are breaking the rules. OpenAI still breaks the rules. Now it's licensing Disney content. It used to just borrow Disney content. We will see. So I don't know the answers to that. I think in Europe, it'll certainly be much slower than in the US, but startups are going to push the limits. They're going to push the limits on what we can do with AI calls, AI enhanced, whether a human's kind of on the line, but AI is doing all the work. Maybe that's legal, right? Getting more consent for SMS than we typically get. So to think that the typical barriers to robocalling and SMS is going to, that startups aren't going to bend the rules in the age of AI, I'm dubious. But it's a good question. It's harder to do. The one thing I will add is, and it's a good objection to all of this, and I'd love to get Jen's thoughts too, but if you talk to the startups you'd invest in, Lenny, fewer of them are good at outbound phone calls than you think, right? We had many of the heads of revenue at Rippling speak at Saster. The old CRO worked on my team and others. They were late to develop cold calling because we never did it back in the day. The CRO was on my team. So we had to bring in someone that had worked with Sam Blond at Brex who had done it. It is a real art to pick up the phone and close business. It is a specialized skill. And so if that's your specialized skill and there's no way for AI to benefit, so be it. But I don't think for most tech calls that that is as impactful as we pretend it is. I don't think, most of the startups you and I work with and most of the folks listening to this do not close the majority of their revenue with cold, human cold calls. It is a craft that works, but man, you've got to be good at it. You have this line somewhere that if you can close on a text message, AI can close it. Yes. It is. I'm being facetious in the sense that people say that I think have weaker relationships with customers. This is why AI is disruptive. People have weaker relationships with their customers than they think. Yeah. And if it's so easy to close the deal on a text message and we've done hundreds of thousands of these and folks don't mind if it's an AI, if it's a good AI, why won't it close it on the text message? AI can be people, people too. It really can. If you don't believe me, folks, go to LennyBot.com. Is that the URL? LennyBot.com? LennyBot.com. If you don't think AI can be people, people, people spend hours on LennyBot, don't they? Yeah. And the best part is you can talk to LennyBot. There's a voice feature that sounds exactly like me. It's unbelievable. Yeah. And a meta reason to go use LennyBot, go in with a learning mind. Don't go in biased. You will find that AI can be people, people. People spend hours. Who are our best therapists today as we record this? ChatGPT is our best therapist on planet Earth. It's a people person. I mean, it sounds silly, but if that is your best defense in sales that you're a people person, the sands are sinking beneath you right now. It's not enough of a skill. People person is great when people buy enterprise software that's going to take two years to roll out and they have no idea how it works and it's a hope and a prayer. When you expect the agent to work during the pilot before the big check comes, people person is insufficient. Terrific. Tell me the person that's going to launch my agent, train it and get into production for me before I even pay you. This is the dream, Lenny. Maybe this is one of the biggest changes of all. When I talked with Mark Benioff and Salesforce is the biggest, right? It's 44 billion. It's the biggest ship to turn, right? He's like, the number one thing I envy in Palantir, one is their high deal sizes. He made that joke in all the media and all the press. But the other thing is he said, I wish I could, I can't today. I wish every Salesforce customer now could go live before they pay. That is so different from how we've been trained in many ways to almost rip off the customer, to get them to buy the product. First try to avoid a pilot, then have the smallest pilot we can, then roll it out over years to different people. AI has upped the bar in terms of what customers expect. And that's why the best ones are blowing up because the ROI is so high. And so you've got to deliver the ROI before the document is e-signed today. People that haven't fully embraced that are at public companies growing 8%. They're still trying to play games. What are some other things that you think are going to change that people may not be thinking about that's going to change the way we do sales in the next couple of years? Net, net, we're going to need more sales and go-to-market professionals than ever because the winners are growing so quickly that even if they're more efficient, they will need more human beings than ever. We'd have to put together a spreadsheet to see the crossover point. Obviously many folks are shrinking headcount. Microsoft's already said they're past peak employee. They'll never going to be bigger. We're seeing this all across the companies we work with. They want to be as lean as they can, but AI is such a huge part of our economy already. It's such a force of nature. Everyone eventually goes enterprise. Everyone eventually has a sales team. Everyone eventually does it. It's happening faster. 11 labs, 50% of their sales is through enterprise now. I don't know everybody. The fact that Vercel just added Janine means they're going more enterprise by definition. I think Repl.it just added a sales team a couple months ago for real, and now they've added another CRO. They got to 100 and something million with no traditional sales team, but at a billion, it's going to be flooded with salespeople. If you get great at this stuff, if you go buy an agent today, when you listen to this and deploy it yourself and do the hard work and train it and ingest it and iterate it every day and get ahead of it and then get two agents, then three and then four, you may become more valuable, have a better experience in DTM, and I believe, I hope, actually be better paid. I've talked about that we should have $250,000 a year SDRs, but they'd be like at Vercel. They'd be managing 10 agents, not 10 people. Then they're worth 250 grand instead of 80 grand or 90 grand. It's not that much, is it? There is a great world coming. These are the best of times, aren't they, Lenny, for product and business, right? It's not evenly distributed. If you have those skills, even though we're not going to need these SDRs and even though we're not going to need BDRs, even though we can get rid of half of AEs, the amount of revenue and growth in AI leaders is so phenomenal, right? Not just at the startups, at the Google Clouds, at everywhere, at Azure. They're hiring so many humans that net net, it's a positive for the profession, but not for the way we've done it in the past. You're at risk. That is really interesting that we're still hiring, and this is what I've seen too, just like everyone's hiring salespeople, go-to-market people. Do you think there's going to be this peak in the next couple of years of just, okay, now that AI is doing more and more of this, or is it just hard to predict? Because who knows how big AI gets, how big these companies get? I mean, IT is over a trillion dollars. I don't see any reason, and it's accelerating. The amount of AI is increasing the amount. Gartner says next year will be the fastest acceleration of money deployed into IT and software in a decade. It's re-accelerated. Can that last forever? No. Eventually, we consume 100% of the global GDP. There's no money left to buy. There are some limits, but I don't think you and I and any of the millions of people that follow you, I don't think we got to think too much more than three to 40 years out here. It's too much. There's too much change. If you become a master of the universe in AI, you will be hyper-employable the next two to three years, and if you stay with a learner's mind, that will just compound. You will have a job that I think is far more interesting, even if more tiring, than we used to have. But the days of working 20 hours a week and kind of phoning it in and getting a few deals, I think those are forever. That was a great time. Even you had a little bit of that. I think you're working harder than you used to, aren't you? I am. I am. I mean, the classic Lenny vibe at 100,000 subscribers was kind of leave me alone. I take a lot of vacations. I do some good work. I mean, it's still part of your vibe, but I think you're working harder. I'm working incredibly hard. The original idea was create this chill newsletter life. I'm just going to write a newsletter once a week. Life's going to be good. And it's just hard to pass up on really cool opportunities and do more, help it grow bigger. I couldn't resist. So yeah, I'm working very hard. And that should be all of us, though. If you're not feeling what you said or even a version of what I said, then you're not on the right. You're not living the AI dream today. It is more work. It should be tiring. Even if it's better in some ways, it is just more work. But this is the most exciting time of our lifetimes to be in software. I mean, good God. I can't even code, Lenny. And I've built 12 apps on Repl.it in the last 150 days, used by a million times. I've been waiting 10 years for some of these folks to build some of these apps. I just did it myself. Right. I literally just when I was in London, I built a whole app where you can practice selling Harvey, Cursor, Repl.it and ChatGPT Enterprise. And it works. This wasn't even possible at the start of the year, was it? These are magical times. And the fact that we can run an eight-figure business with three people and 20 agents, it's like, get excited or go join one of these really slow-growing. My advice is pick one of two paths today. Either be working harder like even you and I are. We don't have to. Or honestly, I will say the truth is there are a thousand unicorns born in 2021. Eight hundred of them are growing pretty slowly, will never IPO, may not have an exit, but they're OK with 8% or 15% growth. If you don't want to be on the journey we talked about, I'm not judging. I get it. We're humans. We have families. Not all of us are obsessed. I'm kind of obsessed. I think you've become more obsessed. If that's not you, join something more slow-growing. They still need people. Not as many. They still need people. But I would pick a lane for next year. Don't pretend that there's this middle path going to start because it don't exist in GTM. I don't think it exists in product or engineering either. I love just how excited you are about this. Just like you could tell on Twitter, just how fun this is for you, just learning and sharing. And I love that you're sharing it, but I think it's just a symptom of you're just so excited about what's happening and what you're learning. And it's just like you can't help but share it. I'm in the same way. I'm just like, oh, shit, I just go to this really cool thing. I got a tweet about it. It's just it is just magical that our ability to build things that we couldn't build before, build in ways and paces. It's just it's and it's accelerating. It's so I mean, we could talk about it forever. But even for me, for like I just picked rep, I picked replic because Twitter told me to. I could have picked another tool like I'm not an investor and I'm not I'm not even biased, but I'm in the top one percent. Just to double down, as you said, you're top one percent user replic. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So it really didn't work well when I started about one hundred seventy days ago. Then a V2 came out and it got better. The hallucinations went away. And then this is just like you got to get excited about folks may not know this and other tools. When V3 came out, I don't know, 45 days ago. Now it has agents talking to agents. So what happens is when you and again, I can't really code. So when I have an issue and I'm trying to figure out how to do something, the agent calls in an architect or another agent and they debate and argue with it and they come up with the right answer. The first time this happened, I just fell out of my chair. It's just so not only is it magical. I mean, great. You can do a prompt and build a crappy app. It doesn't work now. Like one hundred fifty days later, you have agents debating how to build better code with each other. And you don't even need to know how to code. I mean, this is the greatest. The only greater time is going to be next year. Right. I've been waiting. I've been waiting. Right. And, you know, and just that the things that you can build today and the other I mean, you know this, but other folks I mean, that's me building without being able to code the other cap. And obviously, you know, if you're building and why are folks so productive on all these tools? I mean, every bit of open source software in the world is in these tools. If you want to build something that's been built before, it's so easy. The novel stuff's really hard. Right. It's not any easier. But man, it's just these are these are great. And so and maybe maybe. And so for GTM, for sales, it's a couple beats behind. And there's probably a bunch of reasons for it. Some of it is, I think, ironically, is just where founders are interested. So marketing is behind sales for AI, like the AISDR has exploded. I don't really know why. I invested in a couple of pre-AI tools. I invested in sales off, which was sold for two and a half billion. It's like the last deal, the twenty twenty ones, like the seed investment. No one wanted to be in that category. Now, everyone in the world wants to build an AISDR CRM. But marketing is slower just because they're really people don't really want to build the cursor for marketing. People say they do. But but it's just not. But it will get there. But the innovation will just accelerate. It's just going to accelerate. So so don't be a skeptic on this stuff. Like if you're not as excited as me, then here's my last bit of advice on this for folks. If you're not if you don't feel what I feel, here's my advice over the holidays. When you have a quiet moment, when you're having your mulled wine or your hot chocolate or whatever, fire up your browser, do it incognito. Go to your app and do everything. With a fresh Gmail address, try support, see how your support is. Try to contact sales. Sign up for the newsletter. Do everything. Try your product. If you do this quietly, your heart you're going to cry about some of the things you see. You're going to cry how bad you're supported. You're going to cry how long it takes sales to get back to you. You're going to cry about a couple of things. Pick the thing that makes you cry the most over your mulled wine and go buy that agent and fix it. And then you will have the passion that we have. I always counsel people to do this. It just wasn't as actionable before. But you just get lost. You forget about these things. You forget about the onboarding workflow, and you forget about support, and you forget how bad contact me, and you're so lost in the strategic. So you got it once a year, ideally once a quarter, just do this incognito mode test. Even for Lenny's newsletter, I bet we can find some part you forgot to touch. Nope, not going to happen. I'm just joking. You'll be like, oh my God, I can't believe I didn't touch that since I launched the sub stack. It doesn't even go to the right. That page, it's a 404. I'm going to do this over the holidays. And I love that this like, usually the advice would have been, okay, email your product manager and tell him you found all these bugs. What you're saying here is no, find an agent to take care of this in the future, like make this a much better experience for everyone always. Yeah. And if it's the one that makes you cry, it may motivate you to do it. Yeah. And it's not like you have to publish it to production. It's not like you have to have your CEO approve this thing. It's just like, show them what you might be able to do. Here's what I did over the weekend. Maybe we should explore doing this thing with our site. Yeah. should explore doing this thing with our site. Yeah, the job's just my job. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man, Jason, I feel like I could chat with you for hours, but I think this is a good point to wrap things up. Is there anything that you wanted to share or is there anything you wanna leave listeners with? One last thing maybe that comes up that I've learned that are on people's minds and we can't break is a lot of folks are concerned, hey, this will impact people's jobs. What do I do? Like, okay, I did what you said. I did the incognito mode. I'm gonna bring in this agent, this sales agent or this support agent. I've tried, I've even did it, but I'm worried I'm gonna get pushed back and people are gonna lose their jobs. I don't have the perfect answer to this one, but I think be honest about it. Be honest that for the best people, it will make them more productive. For the best people, it will be even fun. For the best people, they will be better at their job. And if it is a threat to some of the folks on the team, the future is coming anyway. We might as well embrace it. So it's just when I hear, I wouldn't, I would be positive about it. I would explain it helps the best people, but I don't think dancing around it is the right answer in your organization. It will result in change. And if some jobs change from one role to another, that's life in the age of AI. Don't hide it. I don't think it helps. I love that in your case and in Jean's case at Vercel, it's not like you let anyone go. In your case, the SDRs quit. And in her case, she moved them from, I believe from inbound to outbound or outbound to inbound. She just kind of reshuffled them to do, to have a higher impact somewhere else. I think that's an important, a really important point. This is another thing that I think the media creates too much drama on. I don't think, AI is not, I mean, AI has led to some layoffs, but even though most of the ones we read, it's just a justification to do layoffs. It's just a reason to blame it on it. What's a much bigger issue is that people just won't be backfilled with humans. We will use AI to backfill. That's what we did. We didn't fire. I've never fired anyone in my whole career other than for inappropriate conduct a few times, right? That's that you fired today for that stuff. But pretty much I've never fired anyone that didn't do something inappropriate. They just, when they go, this time we just said, now it's the agents, right? And so that's a much bigger force of nature than some random layoffs, which probably aren't really due to AI, right? It's probably not because you brought in 20 agents in 2025. It's probably because you just want to downsize anyway. And this is the excuse. So it's not, it's probably less of a threat to you than you think AI, but what it does mean is if you're not, don't want to embrace it, Lenny, maybe don't leave your current job. Yeah, I was just gonna say. Maybe don't leave your current job. Because the new place might not be hiring for this role. Yeah, I have a, God, I have a sales exec who I love. I worked, I'd known for many years and he went from 100K job, but then almost an 800K job, then down to a 200K job, then left that one because he didn't like it and now he can't get a job at all. He's back in school. So maybe stay. We all, maybe stay. No shame in staying, is there? Yeah, I like that. Well, with that, Jason, we have reached our very exciting lightning round. This is your second time going through a lightning round, so I'll make it quick. First question, what are a couple books you often find yourself recommending to other people? I was recently asked to write a forward for a book from one of the revenue leaders I have the most respect for in the world. I read a little bit of it. I couldn't do it because as good as it was, it was dated. It wasn't current enough in AI. And there's just, I don't know what we said at this, it might've been before we started the pod. The plays all work, but the playbooks don't really work as well. So many of these GTM books are playbooks, especially folks selling courses and stuff, but they're playbooks. Run from the playbooks, embrace the plays. And so read all these go-to-market and sales books and take great items from them, which was always the goal from a book, right? You take two or three things out of it. But I think I'm waiting for the next level of books in GTM and 2026 was everything I've read. It's just too backwards looking. So just be a skeptic, grab the plays, but don't adopt the playbook. I just had a growth from lovable, Elena Verna on the podcast. She had the same advice, that all these playbooks that she's used over the last 20 years in growth, just don't work anymore in AI companies. Next question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you have really enjoyed? What's this one called? What's it called, Pluribus? Is that what it's called? Pluribus, yeah, I've been watching that. So it's a good show. This is what I realized is why you should be excited about AI and GTM, is Pluribus. Because in Pluribus, there's like a hive mind, right? All the people except 11 people or 13 people, they're all connected. People don't get this. This is why, right now, the whole point, when we're doing this, maybe we'll do a third one if I'm lucky. The whole point is just get your AI agents to be almost as good as humans, but working 24 seven and at scale, that's pretty damn good. If it can do 10 or 100 times more work, 24 seven, as pretty good as your human, that's a resource you don't even have today. It's not that complicated. When AI really is the hive mind, when it can share all of the data across all of your agents and knows everything that happens, then humans are at risk in GTM. They're gonna be so much better when they're the hive mind. Right now, our hive, and there's a bit of a renaissance for Salesforce as a CRM. There's a bunch of reasons, even though it's old, right? It's founded in the 90s. It has become the hub for these AI GTM agents. They all plug in. So Salesforce has become the database for all these. So that's a little hint of the pluribus hive mind. But when all these agents can talk with each other for real and share all their GTM data and all the customer data and everything on the one, next time we do it, the 3.8 million people that read Lenny's and all the agents can share data together, no human, that's, I don't mean to turn pluribus into an AI GTM show, but there's my connection, but it's pretty good, right? I get it. I get it. Oh man, that's just so good. I feel like every episode, I get these pushes from Apple TV of like, there's a new episode of pluribus. I'm like, I can't wait to go watch that. They just leave the, each episode ends in like, oh, I can't wait to see what happens next. Okay. Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love? Like an app or a gadget or clothing? Maybe not in the last two weeks. I'll just give a small one just for GTM one. There is, cause everyone's about Sora this and all of this and video and I love it. I get it. But there is an app called Reeve. It used to be Reeve Art. It's for imaging. And it is, the folks that build it, built their own image LLMs on their own. And the reason I bring this up, I use it every single day, is because it can do a lot of cool things with a prompt, right? But if you want to do cool stuff for marketing, if you want to create a great image, I have a CMMO buying my product doing this. I don't know a tool that is better for that kind of stuff. That stuff that we used to torture, we used to fire up Canva and try to create things or even worse, wait four days for someone to do it for you. I just use, this is one of my cheat sheets. I have a couple tools that I use that people don't get, but now it's app.reeve.ai. It changed its name, but it's just a simple prompt. Go to it, type in whatever image you want to make. And for a lot of the boring B2B stuff we like to do, I find it's the best. And it's R-E-V-E.com. Yeah, R-E-V-E.com. I'm looking at it right now. Copy bar at delivering matcha through a white moss garden. App.R-E-V-E.com. Yeah, sweet. Oh, you're making the image, you said. I'm just like, they're giving me examples here. I'm on the website here. Yeah. This is great. And you're saying this is better than like Nano Banana and all these other. For this use case. And you and I, we just want to do it. I want to do a thumbnail. I want an image for my article. I want it, I just did, my niche thing, content I just want to do. I've got to do it. I just don't think there's anything better for this use case. So I use it two or three times a day and I use all this stuff. Okay. The alpha, more alpha to share with the audience. Okay. Two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often find yourself coming back to in work or in life that you often maybe even share with other people? I'll just tell you one in the weird time we're at. This is probably your best startup. Just talking yesterday with a friend of mine, startup just raised 20 million from a top two or three VC. Founder just quit the next day. Just on the call the other day, yesterday CEO of a company of 250 million just quit. No success or no anyone to join a hot AI startup. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Most of the time, there are times and places to just quit when you have customers, when you have a million or two million or five or 10 million in revenue. But we often think it's easier to get back, to get back to that 10 million in revenue, to get back to 100 happy customers or 200. It might seem easier to quit in the age of AI, but I'd rather take those 500 happy customers, build that badass AI product and sell it to 500 happy customers and go off to find them from scratch. Go off to find that 10 or 20 million. So that's, I literally had a third conversation with the founder just crossing a hundred million that wanted to leave and do a robotic startup after 10 years. I'm like, I get it, man. But like, this is, you have nine figures of equity in this company, maybe go to the next level. So there's so much going on, they're decelerating, accelerating. I just usually think the best startup as for founders, not necessarily for everybody else, is the one you're already working at. And if you're not happy, turn that into your hot AI startup. It's not, here's the thing, it's not too late, Lenny. Sometimes it feels like it's too late on social media. Maybe it's too late to build the next chat GBT on the cheap, okay? But for most stuff, it's not too late. It's still so early. We don't even have great AI marketing tools. We're really early on these AI SDRs. The markets have not hardened. The LLMs are getting so much better. It is, dude, if you want it, it's not too late. So the best startup you're ever gonna have probably is the one you're working at today. Don't quit. Don't quit if you have happy customers. Maybe that's how it is. Don't quit if you have happy customers. They'll buy more from you. I love advice like that. That's empowering and optimistic and de-stresses people, I think, in a lot of ways. So that is great. Final question, so how many SASTRs have you done at this point? How many years of SASTR have there been? Good God, we've done the first big, we did some meetups, you know that, right? And then we did the first bigger one in 2015. So 2016, we did take a break in 2020, but we did in 2021. We're the only event in the Bay Area in 2021. So is that 12 of them, 12 years? It's a long time, man. And then how many talks have there been across those, would you say, total? And then we've done seven in Europe. So 12 in the US and seven in Europe. So about 20, okay, 20 events. 20 bigger events, yeah. I don't know, the annual one, probably if you count the smaller ones, 300. So 3,000, 4,000 over the years. So then here's the question. Is there a talk that you think is the one that you, like, what's your favorite talk across all those events? Is there one you're like, oh, this one really stood out. This is one I always share with people, one that you think people might, you'd want people to check out if they were to check out one talk across all SASTR. It's interesting, it's like a lot of things in B2B. Everything was pretty much the same for 10 years. And then all of a sudden everything's out of date, right? If you wanted to watch an older one, not that old, but old in internet AI time, that I think will change the way you think, watch the one I did with Ben Chestnut right after they got acquired. Because that's a magical time. It's called Everything That Breaks on the Way to One Billion. It's only got 23,000 views. That's nothing for Lenny, but for me, that's pretty good, okay? And it's a moment in time right after he sold a billion dollar company where he talks about how the deal almost fell apart, where he challenges almost every B2B metric we know, running a profitable business at that scale, not really caring about CLTV and CAC or any of these things, but really matters for customers. Is MailChimp as cutting edge as it was today, right? Maybe not, but that's one when I look at it, because everything's kind of the same. We don't really get challenged in the way we think. Everyone's talking their book, right? You're so good at getting people to not talk their book, but that one I think is a great one. And then if people wanted to watch a GTM one, just some favorite ones, we did this one. It's a recent one. Matt Plank, because these guys were on my team, Matt Plank, who's CRO of Rippling, did one with Sam Blond who was NCRO of Brex. It's called Rippling Secrets to Hypergrowth. It sounds like a commercial for Rippling, which is okay, right? But because Sam was, they worked together and now Sam's on the board and all, like they have a fluency of two CROs who are honest and have a Lenny-style learner's mindset. This one on the revenue playbook from Rippling, it's a 14 for GTM. I just had Ben McGinnis on the podcast, former COO, now CPO at Rippling. So that would be a good combo, those two. Jason, I don't know if you know this, but you're the perfect podcast guest because you have such deep experience in the space that you just have answers to everything I ask. Plus you're now just living in this future that we're all heading towards. And you're like hands-on telling us, here's how the future will be and here's how it works and here's how you can get there and here's what you shouldn't do and here's what will break. So I'm just so thankful that you're here sharing all this advice with us. I'm excited for many more podcast conversations. So thanks for doing this. All right, Lenny, you're the best. I'm just a super fan. I'm lucky to be here, so thank you. Let me just ask you, how can listeners be useful to you as a closing question? The fun thing for me, we have two websites, sastr.com and sastr.ai. Just go to sastr.ai and just play with the tools we built. Play with the valuation calculator we talked about. Play with the AIVC, play with any of our tools and just have fun and share any feedback because I've waited 10 years to build tools for the Sastr community. Now I wanna build like 20. So on the side, we've talked about tools you should go buy, but building your own stuff's pretty fun too. So try our tools and give me kind but critical feedback, but with some kindness. Okay, and that's s-a-a-s-t-r.ai.ai. Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out the AI versus the com. We got an SEO issue, so I can't really move it over, but. It looks great. It's shorter too. It is shorter. Jason, thank you so much for being here. All right, Lenny, you're the best. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny'spodcast.com. See you in the next episode. Bye.