Ep 156: From Fawning to Self-Trust: Healing Family Wounds with Jessica Van der Merwe

Hello, listener, welcome back. I'm your host, Dr. Beth Dermot. I am a psychologist and I'm the director of the Master's in Mental Health Counseling program at Indiana University East. But basically, I just love doing this podcast because I get to interview amazing people like my guest who has said yes to coming back. And so without further ado, can you just introduce yourself and tell us something fun about you, Ms. Jessica? Yeah, I'm Jessica Vandermeer. I'm a licensed professional counselor, and I specialize in trauma and complex trauma and dissociation and adult children of dysfunctional families who are coming to do that trauma work. And something fun about me, okay, this might sound, I don't know if it's fun, but I recently started playing the cello as of like two weeks ago, because I figure, why not? I mean, I'm 42. Let's start now, right? Start playing the cello. I mean, it's terrible. It sounds terrible, but we're doing it. So there we go. I love this. Okay, did you play any other musical instruments growing up? Like elementary school, violin, and then I played flute. And so it's been, it's one of those instruments. I was like, I love the sound. I want to make that sound and learn how to do it. So we're giving it a go. Not my spare time. I love this so much because, well, one, I know you don't have spare time, but also, I just love this push toward lifelong learning and just having this thing where I'm like, I really want to do this before the pandemic. And actually it was like, the class was happening during the spring of the pandemic. I decided I wanted to take a belly dancing class. And I was like, I just kind of want to learn how to move my body in ways that I don't usually move my body. And so I started this belly dancing class and there was like me and five other women, and it was awkward and fun and hard. And I'm like, how is she making her neck do that? I'm like watching myself in the mirror and learning a new skill is just hard and a little bit vulnerable where you're used to feeling like you kind of know what you're doing. And then you get in a mirror and you're like, wow, my body does not look as beautiful as that body does doing that. I've got to work my way up to that expertise, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And like the willingness to be vulnerable in that space and be open with making mistakes and looking, maybe like we're not getting the steps right, or like the sound is screechy or whatever it is. And I think like the great segue into this topic and like therapy in general, by the way, being an awkward clunky experience for so many people feeling like, I don't know how to do this. Like, how is this supposed to go? Shouldn't I be feeling better instead of worse? And I'm like, you know, usually like when you open the box, you start to, it does feel worse because we're accessing something that we haven't accessed before. And that is vulnerability at its core. It really is. Speaking of being like what I was thinking of before we started recording, leading up to this podcast on dysfunctional families and boundaries and estrangement and all of the things, I was noticing an intense amount of anxiety and pressure. And I was like, what is, I mean, like I know, like I like to talk, like everyone that knows me knows that. But there was something about this topic that I was feeling really like a lot of insecurity about, even though I have so much lived experience with it and I specialize in it. And, you know, I went and did some personal work and processing on what is happening in my body, what's going on with the fear. And I identified and made the connection, like, this is the same pressure that I feel around my family or have felt when, because I've had to walk on eggshells or I've had to say the right thing or just the right thing to not upset someone. I want to get it right. I want to be helpful. All of these things that, like, who am I to be here? But that kind of feeling of, you know, maybe have something to share, but maybe it could easily be rejected. And it brings up a lot of those protective responses of avoidance and like wanting to, like, again, do the research, get it all right, have a three-point message. And I'm going to just say I don't off the bat. I have some thoughts that we can definitely get into that I think important. But I really wanted to be open and honest with this because I realized, like, this is more today. I wanted to just bring that forward, my personal experience, so that other adult children that are going through really painful and difficult situations with their families feel less alone, less isolated in the experience, because it is a really deeply lonely experience. Especially if you are the one that is doing things a little differently in the family system. You've been the one to be the scapegoat of the family or kind of on the outside or the one to maybe call things out or address things when everyone else sits in silence and pretends the dysfunction isn't happening. And so being a disruptor of that dynamic puts you on the outside and it feels like crazy making a lot of the time. I want to start by some of what we talked about before we started recording to what you're saying is it's a really vulnerable space, I think, especially for therapists. I think it's vulnerable for everyone. But I think about how vulnerable it feels as a therapist to talk about your own personal struggle, that logically we know that talking about it helps people. I mean, it's our bread and butter. It's the work we do every day. It's the thing we tell people every day. And yet, it still feels equally as vulnerable to us as therapists. And I think what a gift you are going to be in our next several minutes together for folks and sharing this part of your story, as well as your expertise, because I think you and I both know professionally that while it's pressure, it's also a privilege that people look to us and say, well, if Beth does this, then maybe I can do it and it's okay. I think about how when we can face that vulnerability. And I love that you talked about avoidance as a protective factor, because I'm sure we're going to talk about other protective factors that you know, adult children are replaying kind of all the time, because they were protective factors then. And so I love that you've had this kind of connection. And I just am so, so honored that you said yes to stepping into the discomfort of sharing that part of the story today. Thank you so much. That means a lot. I really appreciate it. I'm glad we're just, I'm like, got to be real people. Yeah. You know, my clients, they know some of this, because I just self disclose, like, I have lived experience with this. And a lot of people know that. And I think it is essential, like really, when you are someone coming for help, how am I supposed to do this? And that was like a question that came up by how am I, how do you do this? Like, there's no roadmap for how to navigate this. There's no right way. It's so nuanced, and so complex, and so overwhelming. And that speaking to avoidance, when you know, you get to that point of maybe over, you know, seeing there's dysfunction, that's happening, seeing like, I don't think I can do this anymore kind of feeling. First initial, like, oh, like, something's really wrong. And it isn't changing. Avoidance is often the first response. Yeah. Because it's a long held response. It's part of our fawning response, or like, you know, when we think of fawning, or what's often caused, you know, this, that people pleasing, or it's caretaking, or sometimes it's used, you could even, you know, call it codependence. That's kind of one of those words that's been around in the literature. That response is, you know, a relational trauma response. When you're a child, with emotionally immature parents, or in a household with abuse, or you see there's limitations to and your needs are not getting met, you're not making that cognitive distinction. No, right, right. Have capacity for that. You know, as we know, children are egocentric. They're like something, if something's wrong, it's because it's wrong with me. Yeah, something's wrong with me. Yeah. And I need to make my parents feel better. Yeah. I want to make them happy. I want to please them. I want for them not to be upset. I want them not to drink, whatever the dysfunction is. Yeah. Yeah. To diffuse tension, or like, right? So, like, I'm just kind of jumping right into that, because it's something I see the most for a lot of people that come to see me. It's something I know I've experienced. That fawning response, it's so visceral. It's in your body. It's so automatic. You can, this is where, like, cognitive therapy can only go so far. Insight only goes so far, because you can see something happening. You're like, next time I'm going to say X, Y, or Z. Yes. And you don't. And I'm like, yeah, of course you can't, because that's not how trauma works. Yeah. But we can have all the insight. But if we're still stuck in our body, we're not able to make those shifts. And it takes some time to heal and create some safety in the nervous system to people say, you know, I don't have to take care of that parent anymore. I don't have to be responsible for their emotional reactions anymore. Anymore. Okay. I want to come back to something you said, because I think this is a really critical part of people really understanding trauma and trauma work. And I'm saying this as a cognitive behavioral therapist. So I generally practice under CBT. So I believe that our thoughts impact our behaviors and the way we interact with people. And I think that's good and common and effective in certain situations. And I think what I would love is for you to share again, what you said, that that might work for some people, but for a lot of people with, I don't even know, it doesn't even need to be complex trauma. Just for some people who've experienced trauma, you can't just think and plan your way out of your body's reaction when your parent's name comes up on your cell phone, and then you suddenly get an automatic reaction. You can't just talk your way out of that. Yes. This is crucial. And I'm glad you're bringing this to mind, and that you are a CBT therapist and work in that modality. And you see this with your clients, I'm sure, because they're like, well, I know what to do. That's right. And I have all the scripts lined up. And that's all, it's really important work, but it's only partial. It is when, let's go back to, if we think about attachment and how this works growing up, how it works from infancy, even in utero, those early attachments, you might be, of course, familiar with early attachment work with Bowlby and things like that, I won't get into right now. But a child doesn't have an adult brain, right? That's like, oh, I can see that my parent has limitations. And I will not absorb that as personal and whatever that is, of course, we can't do that. We don't have language for that. We don't know, we don't have the brain power for that. We don't have the brain development for that. We're just feeling. So as children, when we are just absorbing, we're absorbing the tension, we're absorbing nonverbal communication. This is that implicit memory encoding that happens through childhood that when it's not dealt with, and if you've grown up in chronic emotional neglect or any sort of dysfunction in communication or whatever it might be, it carries forward into adulthood and plays out in your adult relationships. And there you go, now your partner is the enemy. And we see like a repeat cycle a lot of the time, rinse and repeat. And then so a lot of the time, it's that first of all, I want my clients and I've had to learn myself. It is not a personal failure when you have the script in your hand, and you cannot say it. That is not how it works. Yeah. And so a big dose of grace to say that's normal. Your nervous system is hardwired to respond to safety and survival first. And if it hasn't learned that in the presence of a triggering person, of course, it can't do something different. It's going to either freeze you up, and you're going to go into fawning, people-pleasing, caretaking, saying yes when you mean no. Like, why did I say that? Your mouth is moving. You're like, I can't believe I'm still talking. All of that stuff. Panic. Panic is I'm frozen. I can't run really, but I'm trapped feeling. Dissociation, checking out, derealization, and all of the above. So it's really important because there's a lot of shame associated with that. Yeah. Part of what I wrote down is it's the real beast of it because it's circular. Yeah. Because it just brings you right on back. And so I'm thinking about even, I have this script, I know what I'm supposed to do. And even the example that you brought in your own life at the beginning of our episode today, where you're like, I'm a therapist, and I know what I should do, and I know that I shouldn't feel this way. And it took reflection and deep thought around like, no, this isn't where I'm supposed to land. But I started thinking through when we can't get those thoughts or those things that I know I'm supposed to be able to do to work, then it just perpetuates the, well, it's my fault, I must be broken, that egocentric part that says, this is a me problem then. And here we are, we're all the way back to when I was four years old, and six years old, and eight years old when I internalized all of the things. And this is how it repeats. You said, rinse and repeat, here it goes all over again. And you're nodding. And so I know that I'm walking this track with you and thinking, what a shame-filled, lonely cycle to be in. That then, how can you begin to explain to a person who's going to be willing to listen, to a partner, to explain the depth of it? And so my hunch is that then a lot of folks just sort of shut down and say, well, this just must be a me problem, and it's been this way my whole life. And so, yeah, this is just who I am. Yeah. Yes, there's a lot of that. I'm thinking about guilt in the cycle, because guilt is one of the biggest things I talk about my clients that are working through stuff like this, because it's connected. It's all like, this is a me problem. I feel there might be resentment that builds up toward a family member, but you feel like you can't say the thing or get a boundary across or be able to... Your boundary that you have established has been violated numerous times, and it just keeps going on. And there's anger, but your nervous system has learned that you're not allowed to feel angry. And so it turns back in on itself and turns to what I call conditioned guilt. So there's conditioned guilt and there's true guilt. True guilt being, I've done something, I've hurt someone or done something I shouldn't have done. And yeah, I need to make amends for that. Conditioned guilt is that when we are trying to do something new outside of that fawning trauma response or caretaking or whatever we're doing, like setting a boundary or expressing an emotion or could be even, let's say you see your parent calling and you don't answer right away. And then you have the guilt. The guilt that says you are a terrible person and how selfish are you? This is really awful that you did that. You're so mean. This feels really mean and cold. And all of that starts going. And that is the conditioned response to setting your own boundaries or acknowledging your own worth that was never acknowledged before. So what it does, of course, is it builds up as a sort of toxic guilt situation until we get back in the cycle of doing the old stuff, old programming, old script with the family, fulfilling the old roles. And that's also a rinse and repeat. So one of the big things I want listeners to hear if you're experiencing something like this, one, identify what is true guilt versus conditioned guilt. And if you are chronic people pleaser in life, if you're a fixer and you just sort of overextend yourself for other people, I know for a fact guilt is part of your daily repertoire because anything you do for yourself is also veiled in a sense of guilt. And that guilt is the conditioned guilt of being able to establish a sense of self, a sense of worthiness, boundaries for yourself, just even self-care, like even being able to go, I need a shower today. Some people feel like, I can't believe I took time for myself. It's that, it gets that ingrained, right? That is the conditioned guilt. So what I want to also emphasize here, guilt, when it's conditioned like that, and this is where the sensory stuff meets the head stuff. So this is where kind of like CBT stuff can connect with somatic. This is where we can do a little cognitive override when we can acknowledge the guilt. First, how does it feel in our body? Usually it's not in our stomach or some nausea or some tightness in the torso, usually sternum, stomach area, and maybe somewhere else for someone, but that's typically where I see it. Especially when you're setting a boundary, not answering that call, whatever it is. Okay, I'm having that conditioned guilt experience. This is a feeling, this is conditioned. This is not an emergency. This is what my body knows how to do because it's kept me in a cycle and I listened to it. So I'm just going to acknowledge it and notice it. And so we're applying some mindfulness to acknowledging this is an uncomfortable feeling and that it doesn't actually mean I am guilty, even though it feels really uncomfortable. I just keep nodding and I just love the things you're saying. There's so many parts to this that I think so many people can relate to. And I want to come to one specific part that I think this idea that this is not an emergency. I think sometimes it's hard to learn to trust your body again because your body actually feels like it's an emergency. That's right. That's right. And so the ability to pause and differentiate what really is an emergency and what really isn't. And so you're nodding, I want you to talk about that. And then the other thing I thought about as we were talking, I just wanted to pull my own hair out about self-care and boundaries and all the cutesy freaking things we say and how if I'm a person in the middle of this, I am just like, I literally cannot stand to hear you say another word about it. I could just imagine being in a therapy session or scrolling through TikTok and someone's talking about something so cute and then it's like, don't you think I've tried? Again, perpetuating that, here I am, I must not be trying hard enough. I must not be taking care of people. I must have said the wrong thing or done the wrong thing. Anyway, Jessica. You know how exhausted you feel right now? No. That's the feeling. Constant. Always. Yeah. I'm annoyed by the word boundaries, I'm going to be honest. And self-care, it's really annoying to me. I wish there were a different word I could use to capture sort of what I'm saying. There's this, I'm trying so hard. And I think this is also, it speaks to that feeling of failing all the time. And so the big ones I see, the wounding, the core wounds that I see a lot and I know I personally have experienced or I feel at times I'm still working on. I'm too much or I'm not enough. I'm unworthy of care or I'm not worthy of feeling. I don't deserve that. So these are like these old messages and I'm sure you come across this too when we identify those core beliefs and the sensation of the feeling that comes with it. And the body connection, the brain and body connection around how this is encoded is so hardwired for survival and connection. It's meant to keep you affirmed by that parent that is highly limited. Whatever it is from childhood or to keep you safe. Because if you went outside the boundary lines, if you talked out of turn, if you did something even remotely wrong, this is where perfectionism comes from too. A lot of high achieving perfectionism. So like no one can say anything bad about me so that I'm not in trouble or criticize me. Anything that you feel like criticism is really hard or it feels really like intense and overwhelming. And my train of thought just kind of going from there. It's just like, where was I going? I don't know. But just feeling that sense of this is how it protected you maybe from physical harm. And when that's the case, which I see a lot for the people I work with, the work is going to take longer. But also with neglect, because neglect and abandonment, you got nothing. So there's this deep sense of any vulnerability. I could be left at any time. They could be nice to me right now and then be gone the next day. Or they could be saying that and I can't believe their words. This is deep, visceral stuff to connect to. And this could be a podcast in and of itself we could do for forever, it seems like. And I don't know if I'm answering your question. I'm kind of losing my train of thought. But I just want to speak into that. It's like an understanding, and I will hope listeners can hear this quote, what you're feeling isn't crazy. What you're feeling and experiencing is the adaptation to the stress you lived in and how you learned how to keep connection where possible. I know you are sensing that you are rambling or you're not making sense. And I'm here to say that is not truth. I am just nodding along and taking notes and saying, I can feel that this is both lived experience and professional passion for you. I think even in the way you talk about it, this is so deeply meaningful to you in both the work you do within yourself and the work you're doing with other people. And so I just want to pause and applaud you for that because it shows. Oh, thank you. It makes me want to cry. Thank you. It shows. And even just the moments in the last 20 minutes of us talking together, it does still feel like there's this part of you that's like, no, you're not making sense. And I'm here to say that is not truth to the experience that I'm having. And I just love that you have been open to the process of even exploring this topic because sometimes it can feel like talking about a topic that is so personal, again, it's just so scary to put yourself out there and say, I didn't come with my perfect plan to talk about on the podcast. And what happens if I start talking about things that are off the rails? And so I just love how you're talking about it. I love how I am learning that others are learning about this process because I think one of the other things that I sometimes experience with people, and I'm sure you have too, and it's why I want to hear from your perspective about this, that I think sometimes people don't realize that their family was dysfunctional in the first place. Oh, yeah. They're like, well, I mean, nobody abused me. Nobody left me for weeks at a time. And so I didn't actually have a bad childhood. Yeah. And so maybe you can talk about that a little bit and how that... It seems like it would be even maybe not more complicated, but it just adds another layer. It adds like a different layer or another layer that you have to notice the narrative or notice how your body's feeling when you're kind of just denying that it's even a thing. Yeah, we brought up something that I want to circle back to that I haven't mentioned yet too. I'm going to make a note to myself, but yeah. So, and I, you know, I have seen this, although a lot of my clients, because I'm very trauma specific, they're like, oh, I know I had, it was messed up. So, but I have had a few, like it wasn't so bad, but their body is saying something else. Their disconnection from emotional experiences is saying something else, because sometimes nothing happened and that's the problem, that nothing happened, that there was emotional connection and that emotional neglect is actually one of the most complex things to work with, because you don't have something direct to point to. I don't have a bruise. I don't have harm that way. I don't have a traumatic experience. I just know I feel unloved and I feel terrified of sharing my real experiences or being vulnerable. I'm afraid of connection with other people and being myself, or I just can't connect to my emotions at all. Because you learned early on, and this would be my bet with these types is that experience that nothing happened to me. Well, what was acceptable was probably positive emotion and achievement. You did something good, great, yay, but anything that was vulnerable, any sadness, any messy, emotion was clearly not acceptable. And that was probably made very clear before you had language for it. So by the time you were about 12, you had already shut that down. And then other things emerged. Maybe you went into high achieving, maybe you're the valedictorian, maybe you self-harmed, or it goes underground into an eating disorder or something else, how it will manifest. So we're just looking for where is it gonna pop up, but that's a big one to acknowledge of like, yeah, you're right, nothing happened to you. And that's also painful. And then you have this next leaping into, and I know we have a few minutes, but something that was really helpful for me as I started this journey and understanding what was going on, I also like, I knew my family was messed up and I knew I had a lot of anger and I knew I had a lot of trauma from childhood and all kinds of things, but you don't have language for it. And by the time I was really unraveling a lot of this in my early 30s, I was able to identify the feelings that I was experiencing as grief and having the words, sometimes it's just helpful to like have words for what you're feeling. Grief and the grief cycle is huge part of how we need to process and move through emotions as adult children, denial being part of it. Nothing, but it wasn't that bad. There's minimization, there's bargaining, but it was like this or that, then there's anger and then there's depression. And then there's all of the parts of this that we are grieving what we didn't get and what we can't get now, we can't get that back. That is a deep grief. And if you're a parent now, let's say I'm speaking specifically on parents, but it can be around other loved ones or siblings or whomever, but especially with parents, if you are trying to get a need met or even just be validated, this was my experience looking back and they are dismissing, minimizing, deflecting, blame shifting, doing all of that, then we have to grieve if that parent is refusing to do their own self-reflection and work, we have to grieve the parent that won't do the work now, that even now it's not enough. I know it's a heavy thing to land on. This is heavy stuff. It is really complex, ambiguous loss we're experiencing. I think it's really important to name it because naming what's conditioned guilt versus true guilt and what we're actually feeling is, oh, we're like, why am I so sad? Well, you're grieving. And when we can name it, it's like that's understandable and an appropriate response as you are coming to recognize nothing happened to you. I absolutely agree. I love introduction for some people. It may be an introduction, right? They may have their own idea about grief. I've actually spent the last couple of months talking to different groups about grief because I think there's so much grief happening that we just don't pause to think about. But I think about the complicated nature of continuing in a relationship with the dysfunctional family member, acknowledging it as grief. And then it's like, I just was having a conversation with a friend recently and they were sharing about how their mom is, they've had like an ongoing dysfunctional relationship and the guilt you were talking about earlier around continuing to kind of open themselves up to the relationship. This person didn't use the word grief, but as we're talking about it here, it's grief over and over again, right? If you are still kind of trying to set boundaries and trying to hold boundaries, but when they're still like a part of your life, that guilt, grief, confusion, everyone's repeat, fawning, people pleasing, that feels like that's just too much. And that's not even like an irrational too much. It's just literally too much for a person to have to manage on top of like, you have life to do. You know what I mean? It's like you have a job and maybe you have a family and maybe you wanna have fun with your life. That's like just too much, Jessica. I know, I hear that. And I feel for this person that's going through that because it's like gutting. When you're trying, you're like me, and this is another part, and we might have to do a second part of this because I wanna talk about the healing fantasy, but it's like there's this relentless hope that things will be okay. And it's bottom falls out every time things go sideways again. I like my body is having a response to this idea and this idea of the healing fantasy, we must come back to because I over and over and over and over, I'm sure you see it. I'm sure, yep, sounds like you've experienced it and just there's no talking your way out of it. And that's, I hate to say it, there's no shortcuts to this either. Like you can't talk yourself out of it. No, you can grieve through it, but it takes as long as it takes to accept the reality. And sometimes that will take years and years as it took me. And it's like you're not ready until you're really ready. You see it, okay, I can't do this anymore, type of feeling of it. I'm a therapist and speaking up, I'm supposed to know the answers, right? We were talking about this before and I know we need to go, but no one knows the answers. It takes grief, it takes as long as it takes. There's relentless hope and healing fantasies that they're gonna exist. And to be gentle with ourselves through this process as much as possible. I know that's not normal for those of us who are usually going through this. We're usually very hard and critical on ourselves, perfectionist, relentless with ourselves. And to say like, I can also be gentle or maybe explore that concept that it's okay to be where I am and feel how I'm feeling. And getting some support through that is really key, I think but maybe we should just do a part two and kind of get into what to, cause I'm kind of hearing your thing now about what then when nothing changes, cause that's a big, big part of like, really, what do you do? Well, I mean, yes, I am all for unpacking those things next time. And because the things we're saying, I just think are so real for so many people. I think about our human tolerance for chronic conditions and how we're not built, we're just not built for chronic conditions of similar to chronic illness or chronic stress or things that kind of go on and on. And so I also just can imagine the listener who's here that says, I don't wanna keep doing this. I can't keep doing this. And so the offering of hope to say, yes. Yeah, that sometimes you don't even know it's an option to you to not continue. Yeah. And so if you're there and going, well, maybe I don't need to do this anymore. I'm glad, I would be glad to hear that. You know, I'd be like, that's good. You can see that now. Yeah. You know, this is maybe experimenting with making small changes to protect your inner world and your peace. So like, what does that maybe look like with, just experimenting with it. You know, what if I didn't have to do this? What if I didn't have to answer the call right away or the text right away? And I could wait until tomorrow and let them handle that as they're not my emotions to manage, right? Or whatever it looks like, but maybe that's just a prompt. It's like a gentle prompt of what could change just a small thing. Because I'm not endorsing like, go cut off your family members. That's not what I'm saying here by any means. It's a discovering of where's the line for me and that self-trust of a, can I trust myself with doing something new and allowing myself to feel the discomfort in that for maybe a long-term better outcome. But maybe like, hey, you don't have to answer that call. I am writing, I'm writing down. For me, this is, you know, I also have the same beef with self-care and boundaries. And, you know, I think some of these terms that are becoming mainstream, I love that we are pushing toward these things, but I also have kind of the same visceral response when people are like, well, just, you know, self-care and set your boundary and, you know. It's like cute. But I actually really love your invitation that you have for folks here at the end of like, what if you're experimenting? Because that's really what you're describing. What you're describing is self-care. You're taking tiny, tiny moments to see what might shift, what might feel better, what might feel more connecting, what might, I mean, and really at the end of the day, self-care is about creating yourself as a priority in this tiny moment and over and over and over again. You have to care for other people and sometimes you have to do that. And so you don't really have time for self-care, but then at some point, if you're not stepping into making your wellness a priority, I mean, I don't know how to finish that sentence, but I think, I mean, I think we know what's at the end of the sentence, right? We're like, yeah. You know, I want to add this before we go to, I mean, we could go on for thousands of hours. I know, I know. But one thing is I'm thinking of one of my clients in particular too, that self-care, quote unquote, is triggering. It feels threatening. It feels uncomfortable. You can acknowledge that. Like, it's not like we all really want self-care. We want it like, you know, conceptually. Yes. But when we think about like actually doing it, we're like, oh, like I want it, but like there's those blocks to actually completion because that's been something that's been off limits. That's been exiled internally. Like you don't, you're not a priority. You have to focus on other people first. So to have permission, and maybe this is just a permission slip for people who don't feel they have permission to try this out, like permission to do something for yourself, however small, and make it small. I wouldn't say do anything big. It's very small. Go even, maybe instead of like rushing to the next thing, you take 60 seconds to go stand outside in the sunshine. And that's a way to just stay. I'm allowed to pause right now. It's like that small. That, it's that small, 10 times a day. Or one time a day, but it's not taking a bath at the end of the day. Do it once, but it's also like normalizing that it will feel uncomfortable. Yeah, that's good. And that's okay. Oh man, there are so many things. There's so much. Listen, I need you to hear from me and every listener who's listening, because I know that they are experiencing you the way that I'm experiencing you, that I think this is the third time. Is this your third time on the show? I think this is my third time, yeah. I know, because we talked about trauma the first time, we talked about brain spotting the second time, and now we're talking about this. I need you to hear your brilliance, your expertise, the way in which you talk about things that are so real, but so, you're just getting to the heart of things in a way that it's so clear that this is in you. And it is the gift you offer. And so I am truly grateful for the time you get to spend with me here. And I know we will have part two, because I wrote down notes around Relentless Hope, Healing Fantasy, the chronicity of this work, and then self-care is all coming in part two. Wow, thank you. I'm tearing up, so Beth, you're making me cry, but no, that's one of the things I do best. So thank you for that. What makes me, it really like feeds my soul to hear, and it is, I really recognize the privilege it is to speak on this platform and the responsibility I feel for other people going through this and my clients, it's very immense, because I really truly care. Yeah. So I'm just really, I'm glad to be here. So thank you for the opportunity. It's amazing. Okay, I'm gonna link to your website where people can find you. And until our next time, I hope that both of us can find those moments of, we're not gonna call it self-care, but we're gonna call it, I don't know what, we gotta come up with a word. Come up with a new word. Self-care needs to go somewhere else. It needs to go, but it really is, but I don't like any of the alternatives either. And so maybe between now and then we'll have, you know, the GBT help us or something. Or listeners, if you have ideas, send them back. Yeah, what do we call it? This like prioritizing and, you know, all the things. I'm gonna have something by the time we come back. I think we both will, and it'll be brilliant for whatever we bring. It's amazing. Okay, thank you, friend. Thank you, listener. Stay safe, stay well out there, friend. Until next time, ciao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao. Chiao.