Claire Danes is “Tough and Nervous"

It's just so extreme the way our lives are organized, you know, because of our business. You know, then I have these swathes of time where I am only available, which is great. And I just try to bank the hours. Yeah. You binge your kids. I binge. That's right. Yeah, me too. I'm just looking at photos of them on my phone, you know, on set. It's like mother porn. Yes, totally, totally. Welcome to this week's episode of The Best People Podcast. This week's guest is someone I've admired from afar for many, many, many, many, many years. She's brilliant. She's an iconic actor. She encapsulates what it means to be driven and purposeful and carry your burdens lightly in service of something larger than oneself and the role she plays. And then I got to meet her. And I am one of those people who never wants to meet her heroes, but in real life, she's even better. So without any further ado, this week's best person is Claire Dane. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much. This is so nice to talk to you. Well, I never want to meet anyone I admire, especially Carrie Matheson, because I make Carrie Matheson references all the time on my show. And it's a pleasure to know you just a little bit. And to see you in The Beast in Me is like, how do you keep doing this? So I guess my first question for you is, what is your will that you draw on to be so powerful and so vulnerable at the same time for all of us? It's funny. Matthew and I were shooting that scene where the highest floor of his latest project. And my parents happened to be coming into town. This time last year, it must have been for Thanksgiving or something. And I was like, they should just come to set. That's so cool. It's like they're like five minutes away. And so they came to set. And this was kind of a sweet surprise. And they were at Video Village watching the scene. And suddenly, I felt my mom's eyes on me. And I got really self-conscious and kind of nervous. And I then joined her back at Video Village. And I said, Mom, I feel a little goofy with you being here. Because if there's anybody who really can see the truth, it's you. And she said, no, no, come clear. You're good. You're tough and nervous. Tough and nervous, which I think is maybe an apt description of everything I play. But yeah, I have been very fortunate to play people who are a lot more brilliant than I am, who have these wonderful minds. And it's so fun to cruise around in them for a season or two, you know, or take a spin. Yeah, in a brain Porsche or something. But I also think because, of course, it always starts from the very, very beginning. And it starts there in the deepest place, which is, you know, mom and dad and tiny, tiny little Claire that they decided to bring into this reality. And yeah, and I am genuinely moved by their plights, by these characters' efforts. And, you know, if I concentrate on that and on them, then I have greater access to that feeling. But you know, there's this all this talk about like the cry face and everything and how intense and which is like, in some ways, it's like meant to be kind of complimentary. But in other ways, it can be sort of like, flattening or, you know, reductive. I feel like sometimes a little objectified by it in some way. And I'm also like, I'm just feeling stuff, guys, on like a few different levels in a way that I imagine we all do. And it registers on my face. And I think that's like the actual job of an actor. So I don't know. And I think sometimes people experience it as a provocation or something, which, you know, I want to stir feelings, sure, but I'm not doing it as a like a hostile gesture. I'm not like, I'm not trying to upset anybody. Exactly. I'm just I am trying to create a place where people can reflect on their own circumstances and their own internal lives, you know, anyway. I think that's the trigger, though, right? I think the flattening piece is they say, oh, she plays all these brilliant, complicated women. And then the left said, yeah, she holds up a mirror to the complicated parts in all of us, like the universe, like the magnetic pole. Yeah. All of these women. Isn't that they're over there because, oh, I don't have bipolar disorder and I'm not in the CIA or my child didn't die. It's not that they're over there. It's that they are our fears that we carry in every moment. That to me is the tension is that there's something in all of in all of these characters that we all carry no matter our circumstance. Yeah. I was talking to my husband, Hugh, who is also an actor, about what we do recently. And gosh, he was quoting a friend of his that says, in our work, you want to imagine like a certain character, but up a tree with wolves barking at them, you know, like the stakes just have to be a little higher when when you're asking people to like pay a ticket to a show. Right. It should just be a slightly more exaggerated reality. Yeah. Yeah. What is that partnership like? With my with Hugh, my husband? Yeah. Oh, he's the best. I super married up. I really did. I love him. We've been together a long time now. We met on a movie called Evening close to 20 years ago now. And we've been married for 16 and we have like three kids. It's a lot of life that we've been spinning together over these years. But he's he is an amazing actor, but he's he's a lot of other amazing things. He's a great artist. He's a great cook. I basically can like, you know, toast a bagel and he does everything else. He whips through books. He's just a naturally curious, kind, hot guy. And he's like hot. You both are. You both are. I love him so much. I love him so much. When I met you, you guys had just gotten through, I don't mean it's arduous, I mean it's long, The Brutalist. And I love your story of taking that in together as artists sort of consuming this piece together. Yeah, well, actually, I mean, it's so hard with like when we're, you know, steeped in work and we're looking after our kids and stuff like to carve out the time to see movies and to, you know, to absorb the culture. I feel you. I'm a teenager and a toddler too. You really have to. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. You have to be committed and determined. And we've decided we had to like start watching things in increments. We're just, this chapter in our life is pretty dense. Do you, what are you, so mine go, my son's about to turn 14 and my baby turned two yesterday. And I think you have a span too, right? Yeah, similar. Yeah. So with like a seven-year-old in the middle. So yeah. Right, right. Cyrus is 12. He turns 13 soon in December and Rowan is seven and then, yeah, we have a toddler, Shay, who's two. Yeah. What, I mean, for us, it's like the best and the best. But each is intense in its own way and requires you to be completely present. And I don't create the gifts that you create in art, but I do feel like for our audience, I have to be present in the news. Plenty. But it's like, but to me, like all these jobs require presence and that helps me organize myself. Like I can't, you can't be distracted with a teenage boy or you miss them. You know, you just, they're, they're, they're sort of, if you look away, they'll go somewhere else. Also, the gravitational force to their room is very strong. Yeah. Or their friends. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And then a toddler, you look away and, you know, you're fucked. They're dead. They're gone. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, like, what are your, how do you organize yourself to be present for all of that? Oh, well, I, yeah. I mean, there are periods of time when I don't see them enough. Yeah. And that's painful. Yeah. And then it's just so extreme the way our lives are organized, you know, because of our business. You know, then I have these swathes of time where I am only available, which is great. And I just try to bank the hours. Yeah. You binge your kids. I binge. That's right. Yeah. And, but no, it's, I'm just kind of just looking at photos of them on my phone, you know, on set. It's like mother porn. Yeah. Totally. Wow. Totally. Mom porn, yeah. But yeah, I mean, I just, in the moments that I can be with them during those busier periods, I just, like, cuddle them and tell them I love them, the kind of, a distressing number of times. And taking them to school is very nice. I did get to do that with Rowan today, and there's something very kind of grounding about that. Like sending them off into their day is nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cyrus now takes the train to school on his own. You know, it's all, we're turning a corner. It's crazy. And I can, he's like starting to drift and recede, you know. And exist in the world. And squirrel parts of himself away. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. I have to. I mean, to me, the most horrific thing that could happen to me is for something to happen to my child. Child. And for your character to be that character, how do you leave yourself and play her? How was that? That was a big fat bowl of no thank you, basically. It's like really dreading. It's like the one thing I can't contemplate. Yeah. I can't read a novel where that's the plot. No, it was, it was really not my favorite part of the process, but an essential one because it really is so at her core. But no, I read a few books about complicated grief and about paternal grief. And I listened to, to Rob Delaney's book about losing his son, which was so, so wrenching and so beautifully communicated and very layered and at times very funny. But that, that was really helpful. Oh God, I'll cry just thinking about it now. I mean, it takes nothing. It is the nightmare. It is the nightmare. But yeah, no, I just have to kind of consider it, you know, and my hands are literally sweating as I'm talking about it. So Esther Salas is a judge whose son was murdered by an assailant who was looking for her. And I've gotten to know her and my question, and I ask her this all the time, how do you, how do you walk through life having had your heart broken like that? And I, the beauty of what you're talking about, you know, these layers of grief and purpose and, and, and obviously it's a different arc, right? That your character travels, but just the whole, how do you exist? How, how can you be with that part of your heart gone? It's just the part of the story that I find so riveting. Yeah. I mean, I thought it was interesting that the catalyst for change, you know, like for, for release and, you know, from this horrible kind of purgatory comes in the form of this really dangerous guy. There were just a lot of competing forces at play. None of it was obvious. And I liked, I liked that conceit that, you know, the darkest part of you would like your shadow self would become incarnate in another person who you then are in actual active relationship with. But yeah, I mean, I read many accounts of people who fall into these, like a decade long period of, of grief that doesn't end, you know, because it, I mean, the few times that I have grieved never, I've never had to withstand pain like that, you know, losing a child. I have lost people that I've loved and I've always found it really interesting that it, it's like an, it's a physical involuntary experience, you know, it's like falling in love or, you know, having a baby. There is something that like happens to play that you just have to ride and, you know, and there are phases and, and in order to jar herself out of it. She has to encounter this really volatile force, evil force. Yeah. Yeah. What I think though, it makes her so, I mean, and this is maybe me projecting this onto her, but she's so fearless with him because I think if you feel like the worst thing has already happened to you, what do you, I mean, so I always, I always feel like she kind of, he's scary, but she, she's in my mom brain, she has the upper hand. Yeah. I think you're right. And she and Carrie Matheson have that in common that they have very little to lose. I thought of Carrie as like Edward Scissorhands because she knew that her condition would make it very difficult to have an intimate relationship, like a, you know, a longstanding partnership. She just decided that about herself. So you know, there was, there was something kind of non-like about her, like, like she was married to her country kind of thing, even though she had a lot of, like, sex along the way. But it was, it was always like the monogamous. Yeah. And like the, the, the one steady thing. Yeah. And, and so consistent, even when she becomes a mother, the one steady thing is her North Star is her service to her country. Yeah. And that was really fun to play because it was so clear and, and constant and unwavering. And the scene is kind of true of Aggie, although she really is desperate to be with her partner again. We'll take a quick break here. Next up, much more of my conversation with award-winning actor and producer Claire Dane. Stay with us. I mean, you played with this idea of complicity and rubbernecking. You can lay both of those over our political moment, right? Yeah. Those of us in the media have been complicit in the sensational sort of shiny object covered to the last 10 years. And the rubbernecking of like, sure, there are other important things happening, but this thing over here is like a car crash on top of a train crash on top of a sinking boat every day. What is that piece in us that we can't look away? I think it's, it's such a strong, natural response. It takes a lot of discipline and self-awareness to temper that urge. Yeah. But I think shamelessness is a superpower too, that we kind of, that most people are sort of awed by. Yes. Like, because you think like, what could I do if I had no shame? Yeah. Yeah. And we actually can't imagine it because we do. So we can draw some parallels pretty comfortably with what's happening in our current moment. But yeah, all the attention grabbing too that is happening. Right. Beyond politics. That is, it's tough to be a balanced, you know, just focused human when we have these devices and we have, I don't know, so many influences kind of barking at us, you know, so to speak. How much of your time on Homeland informed what you consume in terms of news? I mean, everybody, I obviously worked in the White House on 9-11 and everybody that I knew in politics and government was obsessed with Homeland, with how prescient it was, with how accurate it was, with how that which was dramatic really was dramatic, you know, how nuanced it was. How much of being Carrie for all those years turned your attention toward, you know, the places in the world where there's still roiling? It was an amazing gift to be able to metabolize what was happening in our political moment in like real time with such an incredibly gifted, responsible team. You know, our writers were just amazing at what they did. I mean, every writer in that writer's room had been a showrunner themselves. Everywhere you turned, they were so skillful and yes, and we really did do our research. One of the writers, Henry Brumell, who had passed away way too young and he was a wonderful, wonderful guy and such a gifted writer, but he died in our third season. But his family worked in the CIA and so that provided this inroad and we were connected with somebody there who organized what we ended up calling spy camp and we would spend a week at a clubhouse in Georgetown and talk to so many people who were really at the center of this stuff and who had very different opinions. Sometimes it was a little awkward in like the waiting room because there were very contrasting, you know, conflicting opinions at play, but, you know, so journalists and ambassadors and senators and spooks and policymakers and stuff. So it was really, really thrilling and totally overwhelming and they were long, dense days. There was barely a break because everybody was just so eager to make the very most of that time. And so the writers would, you know, get this forecast, this massive download and then spin a season out of it. And they went in really open, I mean, they really just asked these experts what they were afraid of, what was keeping them up at night. And then, you know, that was the diviner and then the season would eventually be born. So it was a really thorough examination. And I think they tried their best to, you know, obviously it was television, so we took some liberties, but I think they did try to at least have different arguments, have sufficient airtime. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, I mean, I think that comes through and the characters are living their own storylines and so that they're contending with all these debates, which I think were going on in real time when it was being made, it comes through. You had little, little kids though while you were filming on them, right? Did you take them with you? Yeah. Well, so I was pregnant with Cyrus in our second season. I was like eight months pregnant by the time we wrapped. And every time we shot a scene that was like wider than a closeup, the first AD would scream, belly pass! Which was like the grossest term, like, can we call it something else, guys? And a woman who, you know, had a similar like frame to my non-pregnant one would then step in and like retrace my steps with the actor. Because your role was very physical. Yeah. Yeah. And then they would cut and paste her torso onto mine in post-production. That's crazy. And oh, I did these scenes, like sex scenes with Damien where I was like this massive belly and we had to stage it so like, I was, how did we do it? My back was like facing a mirror, so you kind of got some skin there. And he was like hiding my stomach and just thrusting. And because we couldn't really show anything, we just tried to compensate by moaning like even louder. I can't remember those sex scenes. Yeah. And like, oh, it was so uncomfortable. People just kept leaving set. They're like, I can't, I can't with this. With the indignities. Yeah. So I was battling terrorists and having these sex scenes as a very pregnant person. And then he arrived. And Leslie, our wonderful shared friend who was our producing director, would literally direct while cradling him. I mean, in her arms. And then it got to a point where he would call action and cut when he learned how to speak some words. Amazing. Yeah. And then what he absorbed, like my friend just reminded me last night, there was a script on the table and he was playing with like some plastic cutlery on my script. And I said, what are you doing? He said, I am cutting your line. but I am cutting your lines." That's amazing. When he would get mad at me, when he was like three or something, or four, maybe, like maybe he was a little bit older, like four or five, he would say, back to one, mommy. And back to one is when they say back to your first position, when you finish a take, you could say back to one, everybody goes back to their mark on the ground, their first mark on the ground. Anyway. That's amazing. And he traveled all over the world with us. Yeah, where did you take him? So he was a toddler when we filmed in Cape Town, which was standing in for Pakistan and Afghanistan. And then he went to kindergarten in Berlin, literally, and started having temper tantrums and would scream, nein, nein, and I was like, what's happening? So there's a touch of German in there. And then he went to a school in Budapest for about a month and a half, and ate a lot of borscht, a lot of soup, it was like so much soup here. And then went to a school in Casablanca for half a year. And yeah, like still has a trouble eating couscous, because I think they ate it every day at school. Too much. Too much. Does he remember all that time? I mean, some of it is really, really little. I don't know. I'm not sure. I think he has faint memories of, say, Berlin or something. He remembers Morocco really, really well. And at that point, Rowan, so I was pregnant with Rowan in our penultimate season. And he was around, he was a baby in those Moroccan days. Yeah, I mean, it was more possible to travel like that when we only had one child who was under the age of five. When they're little, yeah. that they're like realized people whose needs go well beyond the nuclear family. So we're just trying to figure out how to work on projects in town, you know, local gigs is what we're in pursuit of, yeah. So we don't mess with their routines. Me too. I used to travel a lot more to do more reporting and it's invaluable, but it's not possible now. Yeah. I mean, I actually loved that dimension of the job. Yeah. I learned so much about the world and really got to, you know, got to inhabit these places and work with people from these places. And I feel like I got a much richer understanding of these different cultures than I would have if I was just breezing through. And that's a great joy, actually, exhausting, but yeah, that won't happen again for another 10 years. I was gonna say, you're now at the beginning of it again. Yeah. My conversation with Claire Danes continues right after the break. We'll be back in one minute. What is raising kids in... You grew up in New York, right? I grew up in New York. Yeah. And now you're raising your kids in New York. Is there like a cycle to that? I didn't grow up in New York and I love having city kids and I love that like my son can take the subway. Yeah. And it's so confident. There's like a confidence to being a gritty, not at least like gritty, but to being a city kid. Yeah. What is that like having grown up in the city yourself? Well, it's very sweet. Like no place feels cozier to me than like New York City, which is silly because it's a... It's like a big neighborhood. Yeah. No, I know. I know what you mean. But it's very tender, like to go back to my... I mean, they don't go to the same school that I went to, but it's in the same neighborhood that I grew up in and just to, you know, have that overlap, you know, to literally be walking down those same streets, holding their hands. It's just very like I'm flooded with warmth. But yeah, I mean, I remember when I was little, actually just wanting very badly to live in the burbs like my cousins and, you know, live in a cul-de-sac and ride my bike all day. And then when I became sort of 11, I found the freedom that the city affords a young person. And I was like, oh, no, this is great because it flips, you know, like once you enter the like adolescence, then it's a different game. Yeah. You were acting by the time you were Cyrus's age, right? Yeah, yeah. Do you think about... That's a trip. Because I really didn't feel like a kid ever, I don't think. But it's very clear to me now that I'm an actual parent that I had to have been one. Yeah. Like it doesn't work that way. So the math is suddenly like very surprising and it doesn't, yeah, doesn't quite work. But it was weird. Like I just really knew at five that this is what I wanted to do. I had that clarity and that real zeal, like real, real passion for it. And then like learned that most actors didn't make money. And that concerned me and I thought, okay, well, I'll be a therapist and I'll do acting workshops on the side to like feed my spirit, you know, oh, my God, I was literally like eight, nine or something. And I was gonna live next door to my best friend and we were gonna have a pool that would be between our houses with slides in our respective yard. It was very thorough. I love it. And then I actually made an announcement at the dinner table. I was like, you know what? Who am I kidding? This is my call. Like, I am an actor. Money or no money. And what age was that? That you came back to? I was 10. I think I was 10 when I made that declaration. And my parents were like, okay, whatever, it's fine. And I started taking acting classes at Lee Strasberg. And I really loved it. And then there was a performing arts junior high school that I learned about. And I met kids who did this professionally there and then started going on auditions when I got an agent because I'd done some student films along the way and was able to show those to agents. And I would literally rollerblade from audition to audition. I still remember like my wristbands, you know, with the Velcro sounds kind of coming into the office, like clomp, clomp, clomp, like such like throwback, 90s much. But yeah, and we'd get jobs, you know. And then there was this momentum and suddenly we were all transplanted in Los Angeles where my parents still are to this day. Was that for My So-Called Life? Yeah, for My So-Called Life. My brother is seven years older, so he was at college at this point, which made it just about possible for us to kind of be available to this adventure. But it's very surprising. None of this should have happened. It's super weird, but it's great. And I've always loved it. And I feel very fortunate that I keep getting to do it. I know when you went to school, you took two years and you had these doubts that you would have the success again. I mean, do you still ride that roller coaster or do you trust the patterns now that there will always be something incredible for you because you're you? No, no. I mean, I'm about to start another job and I'm just flooded with imposter syndrome. Like it's every time I am just roiling with self-doubt. And I mean, like I've done it enough. It's familiar. This is me in that point on the continuum where I am convinced I am going to fail. And I see that in pretty much every actor I know. Every person. Yeah. I think if you really care, if you're really invested, if there's a sense of actual risk, then you're vulnerable and you're unsure. And starting a job is so hard because you have to, that's the real heavy lifting, making those choices and, you know, putting those first big pieces together and drawing those critical initial connections. Is there stuff that has to, like, do you have to feel something or does it have to, like, what does it have to do for you to say yes? Usually the script has to be good. Like it has to grip me in some way that is real. And sometimes I don't know why it's gripped me. And then I discover that over the course of playing the role within the story. Like with Fleischman, was that like, did you read the book and like it? Or did you read the script? That was funny. That was a funny bit of kismet Fleischman because my best friend, who is a therapist now, also. Who you're going to share the slides with? Yes. Yeah. Okay. We talk about my roles a lot. Like when I'm first cracking them, it's like we're playing with Barbies. As grownups. And it's so wonderful. But anyway, we were having lunch and she dragged me to her local bookstore and she bought me Fleischman's In Trouble. She's like, I need you to read this because I have to talk to you about the ending. And I was like, all right. And so I went to do reshoots on another limited series I did called The Essex Serpent, which is a very different milieu. It was like Victorian England. And that was my set book. And I was like in a corset, you know, reading about contemporary New York couple divorcing. And then I got this call like, oh, they want you to play this character. And I didn't even, I didn't even read the script because I was like, that's too weird. That's like telepathic. Yeah. And I was also really enjoying the novel. But that was a wonderful experience and I loved everybody involved with it. But yeah, it's usually something to do with the story that feels like germane and something like that has a resonance and the team and now the location. Right. Right. With the three kids. Yeah. Have your boys watched you in anything? It's a little uncomfortable for them, I think, to see mom in any other role. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, he and I both have a movie each that would might would be appropriate for kids. So I did a movie called Stardust and he was in Ella Enchanted. And finally, they agreed to watch Ella Enchanted. Cyrus was so uncomfortable. He kept leaving the room like he just couldn't see it. He couldn't tolerate it. Yeah. And then it became clear that Rowan, like we stopped midway through the film. He was really little. He was like three, maybe four. We were like, you know, that's daddy. That's dad. And his face just fell. And he said, I didn't know you were such a good dad. You could fight ogres. But yeah, like he just he just refused to accept. It was so impossible, you know, that he couldn't recognize his own dad. Could you imagine like moving your whole family if Cyrus was like, I want to act and got a part in L.A.? Could you imagine the cycle repeating? I'm not nearly that generous like I really am. I marvel at what my parents did to help me do this thing that I love so much. I mean, it was there was a lot that was incredibly selfless about it. It's very boring being on a set day in and day out. If you don't have like I mean, she did actually have a job to do. She really was actively looking out for me. But still, you know, that that I asked a lot of them. Do you see this moment where people are so divided around politics and it's not just, you know, politics, right, left, it's it feels like everything is up for so much debate. Do you see the role of an artist like yourself as letting the art do the talking? Or do you think artists should speak out outside of their art? That's a good question. I think I would rather do my communicating in my work. I also don't want to burden audiences with my personal opinions or my political biases or convictions or, you know, values. They matter. And yes, I go on No Kings marches and you know, like I, I want to invite as many people as possible to the work that I'm making. Yeah, everybody is truly welcome and wanted. And the less they know about me, really, the more access they have to the character that I've been trying to, you know, figure out and share. So, I mean, I think on the outside, right? Like we want everybody, you know, doing the same thing in the same moment. But I think I've spent a lot of time, I've talked to Joan Baez, I've talked to Sarah Jessica Parker. I mean, and people have really different ways of getting it and people, you know, there's like the megaphone that blasts, right, or for Joan that she, you know, sings like an angel too. And then there's the art that speaks and then there's the culture and then there's your platforms. Do you and your husband, like, do you wrestle with it? Do you talk about how public to be at a No King's March or on voting day? Well, I, you know, I don't have any social media. Yeah, I mean, I gave up Twitter too, because I thought it was more, I thought it was all bad. I, you know, that's a very expensive decision not to have, you know, an Instagram. And my brain was so much healthier when I just disconnected from all that. When I go to those marches, people are sort of surprised, you know, they'll say, good on you. It doesn't even occur to me like, oh, right, okay, I am, you know, that could mean a different thing, I guess, my being here than, I don't know, somebody who isn't on television. But I'm not thinking in those terms. And if, you know, we're on boards that, you know, that matter to us, and we try to make our contributions in those ways that are like, you know, feel rooted and real. Yeah. Well, you've been so generous with your time. I've admired you, as I said, the beginning, forever and a day, and to get to talk to you like this was such a treat. Oh, you're so wonderful. Thank you so, so much for having me. I'm a massive fan. So thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to The Best People. You can continue to subscribe to our premium service on Apple Podcasts to get this and other MSNOW podcasts ad free. You'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content. All episodes of this podcast are also available on YouTube. Visit msnow.com slash the best people to watch. The Best People is produced by Vicki Vergolina. Our associate producer is Rana Shabazzi with additional production support from Ann Gimbel. 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