#125: How founders turn childhood wounds into superpowers | Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown (Author & Psychotherapist)

All right, we are live. Jillian O'Shea-Brown, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. I've been following your Substack these past few months and admiring what a lovely, compassionate space it is for people, you know, trying brave new things and I'm just really happy to be here. So thank you for having me today. I'm really excited. It's our pleasure. We also, we met because our daughters are in a daycare together here in New York and just been a pleasure just spending time with you and your family and your husband Grant and I'll definitely consider you guys friends at this point but then the more I've gotten to know you socially, the more I kind of started to get curious about what you're doing, obviously professionally and you're just like really excited about what you've been doing and you have a book coming out soon which we'll talk about a bit and I thought what better excuse can I have for inviting you to come on the podcast after you said something really interesting which is where I want to start the conversation. You said to me that, you said you had never kind of like intentionally set out to work with founders as a therapist, as a psychologist. Would you consider, is psychologists and therapists like interchangeable in this context or would you consider yourself one or the other? I'm a therapist. It's a different degree, a psychotherapist, yes. Okay. And I remember that conversation. Yeah, so why don't you, yeah, like I mean I'll tee you off with like, I guess why do you think founders became this like unexpected clientele base for you like without you ever having explicitly kind of tried to attract that audience? Well, I'll have to go a little further back just to explain that when I was younger, I used to love watching movies that were kind of rags to riches or the hero's journey or that journey through trials and tribulations to finally arriving on the other side. And I had always wanted to be a writer but I figured if I became a therapist, I could listen to life stories and I could co-author with people. They would meet me during a point of darkness and hopelessness and we could together co-author a future. And listening to people's life stories, it's been 15 years now of listening to people's life stories I noticed that the deepest pain that most people go through is relational wounds, relational trauma. And I started really studying this complex relational trauma the wounds from walking on eggshells or the delicate dance of protection versus connection in an environment of coercive control. Or if you're putting the unresolvable paradox of relying on a parent for care, who is also the antagonist. And the ways that we learn to keep ourselves safe in childhood become our defense mechanisms in adulthood. And I've always loved the quote from Michelangelo who carved the David. He said, the angel was always in the marble and I carved until I set it free. And I see human being that way beneath your defense mechanisms, beneath your fears, beneath your traumas is your essence. So studying complex PTSD led to the development of a textbook for NYU in 2021 called Healing Complex PTSD, original title and a series of academic journals. And I think that by just following the journals and the textbook, I started to have founders come to me independently and go, I want an evidence-based multi-modal approach to healing from within. And for me personally, getting to have a window into the mind or the psyche of a founder has been such an honor and a privilege. And it almost feels like I'm reliving that childhood dream of looking at the story through the eyes of the hero as they embark on a wild adventure of ups and downs to eventually try to come home to themselves. That's beautiful. I'm curious, you know, I find it so interesting that founders basically like kind of followed the work, followed the research and they were like, hey, like I wanna work with this person. And I'm sure that's not a coincidence, right? Like, and part of me, the story that I'm like, as you were saying is like, maybe is that, you know, there's a famous saying of like, you know, like chips in your shoulder, put chips in your pockets. That was saying of like, it's just like, you know, like in general, like sometimes founders have that chip in the shoulder. I think the other part that I was thinking is like, you know, one of the attributes that founders have if they're very high agency, like, you know, they have a problem and they go solve it. So like, is that kind of like why you think are those the two factors that kind of led to founders coming your way or is there something else too that you think was kind of in play there? Well, you've actually said two really interesting things. I had never heard that phrase before of, you know, a chip in your shoulder is a chip in your pocket, but I definitely agree. I definitely agree that there's an element of craving a corrective experience and sometimes success or so-called chips is a thermostat of psychological safety and a person believes that if they reach a certain level of success, they will finally feel some element of safety and this deep desire for that, that feeling of wanting freedom, optionality, choice, significance will make them go beyond almost the probability of what is human to do what they need to do to feel safe. Because a lot of people that are looking for success or notoriety, they actually just want to feel safe and they want to feel connected. And these were early ways that they learned to turn the lens inward in their world. You know, the weird, wonderful, non-conforming world of an outlier who's an observer rather than a participant with unceasing curiosity, a high level of individuation and the ability to kind of say, you know, even if relationships are unstable, unpredictable, untrustworthy, I can find joy and pleasure in my curiosity. So it's a kind of a unique subgroup that I have had a privilege of working with and I realize how lucky I am to have that rare window into what can be a guarded mind. Yeah, no, by the way, I'd also never heard that chips, chip on your shoulder puts chips in your pocket or whatever you said, Mark. That's a good one that you pulled out. I'd never heard that. I'm curious, Jillian, if, I mean, I guess like how often do you find that the material success of the founders does actually give them some kind of sense of reaching safety or shifting kind of like how they, almost like how they feel in their narrative. I know you think a lot about story and you just, you're writing a book about the importance of the stories we tell ourselves. So like, I'm just curious, like how, what do you notice that tends to happen with some of these founders that you work with that shifts in their story perhaps, like once they kind of maybe experience some material success? Well, it's a great question. And by the time someone knocks on my door, they've kind of said, you know, I've reached a level of total success right now where I'm looking to drop those defense mechanisms and learn how to connect and relational trauma needs relational repair. And sometimes that feeling of safety is very fleeting. Sometimes you think something would represent safety, but the goalpost keeps moving and you go so far past it that you don't realize that it's always a carrot in front of your nose escaping you. Sometimes you have this aha moment of, I did it and I can unclench and I can start to now integrate my shadow, my disowned part of self, the fearful part of me that's always seeking and always trying to do and be more. That's a very intricate piece of work. But it's a moving target and sometimes it feels resolved and sometimes it gets reactivated at different points. We're also living in very volatile times in terms of pattern recognition and future projections of the market and what's going to be next. So it has opened up a whole host of fears for people that are usually the smartest in the room. But everyone is trying to guess what's going to happen next and this is an era of the four turning. It's an era of not knowing what's next and that can be unsettling. What is the four turning or the fourth turning? What does that phrase mean? So we're in a period of unraveling, societal unraveling where structures are coming apart and there's a new industrial revolution to AI and our future projections of what's going to happen next and what do we do to be safe and what did my parents do to be safe or what do the people 10 years ahead of me do to be safe? It has all been kind of disregarded and we're in a kind of a blank this time or Emil Durkheim, the father of sociology, we call this anime. It's a state of normlessness in a way where the pillars of what was normal and trustworthy are starting to dissolve and people find that very difficult and I guess going back to the psyche of a founder, sometimes you create the business and you IPO and you have a great exit strategy and you were able to get some chips in your pocket and then you kind of feel like I should, this was the thing that I thought that if I arrived here I would finally feel safe but then when you're alone without the deep self-directed curiosity, the impossible task, the toil, when you're alone with yourself, that's where the shadow comes up. The shadow is the disowned part of self and these are unresolved fears, traumas, desires. Behind every behavior is a feeling and behind every feeling is a need and understanding those needs is the key to you living a life of alignment. So, you know, perpetually seeking and desiring to be more and acquire more is often a defense mechanism and, you know, it's one that can be sublimated into making you very powerful but ultimately it's something that people have to work on in order to unclench and to reconnect with playfulness and the joie de vivre again. I'm curious if this happens often. I mean, sometimes a fear that I have is that if you, that if you like start working on that, like trauma or a complex PTSD, that then you're gonna lose your edge, right? Like that edge of that, that you have is probably because you're either trying to prove something to someone or you're protecting yourself or you're like, and- Like, how can I put chips in my pocket if I don't have a chip on my shoulder kind of thing? Exactly. So it's like, yeah, I'm curious, like, I'm sure that's a fear, right? That some founders have is like, Yeah, that is the most common fear. So what you're talking about is the psychological principle of sublimation. Sublimation is when you turn your psychological Achilles heel into your superpower. So for example, Michael Phelps was running laps around his parents' house. He had undiagnosed ADHD, so they put him in the swimming pool. Mike Tyson had anger issues, so he took up boxing. Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was a big fan of boxing. He was a big fan of boxing. And Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was powerless over a father that made him feel weak and not in control. And we know that his whole story arc from real estate to bodybuilding, to acting, to government, has been a defense mechanism for him to feel strong and powerful. Has he done a lot of good work along the way? Yes. Does he have some demons? Probably does. So what happens if you erode the emotional calluses that you've developed along the way? Carl Jung would say this is the alchemy of the soul, that everything in life is cyclical, once an adult, twice a child, if we're lucky to go back to a state of dependency, and that we are meant to, from zero to 40, develop these emotional calluses, but then the job is to slowly dissolve them, integrating the wisdom we learned along the way, but recapturing the childlike playfulness and curiosity and creativity that we lost, which is often the essence of genius too, is when you let go and you let your neurodexterity take over. But what I will say is that, for example, if you were my client, you would come to me, and for me, it would be like watching a movie or reading a book. And to the eyes of the hero, I would watch the story unfold. Sometimes, more often than not, you'll tell me a narrative that you feel comfortable with first, and then you'll reveal more and more and more as time goes on. And sometimes I'll know more than you. In theater, this is called dramatic irony. Sometimes you'll withhold and you'll know more than me, but ultimately all will be revealed with time. And when you're listening to a life story, you're looking for the I am beliefs. And you'll start to say things like, I'm not in control, I'm powerless, I'm not good enough, I'm unlovable. This is your core negative belief, or I like to call it your psychological Achilles heel. And what we do is that we write it on a piece of paper. You do a timeline of when you were born to where you are today. And like the headlines of a newspaper, you just write down three to five times in your life you felt this way. Just the first ones that come to mind. And these are the origins of your psychological Achilles heels. These are your linchpin touchstone memories. And everybody has five to 10 memories in their life responsible for all of the pain. And processing each one is like taking a log out of the fire. So you might go for the lowest hanging fruit first. Like I didn't feel in control when I got teased in eighth grade and I was publicly humiliated. Or I didn't feel in control when I got into when I got into a serious altercation and I felt trapped. You know, it could be basically I'm not gonna name ones cause I don't want people's mind to wander. But as we resolve these with trauma resolution strategies whether it's hypnosis or EMDR or IFS or somatic work the meaning of the memory starts to shift. It's less about shame. It's less about accountability. And what happens to the person to answer your question is that you become less your defense mechanisms and more yourself. But the personality, and this is Joe Dispenza's quote your personality is your personal reality. The personality does start to shift a little bit because it's less about self-preservation and it's more about creativity, calm, curiosity courage, connection. So you won't really lose your ambition but you will restore balance and you will restore the self. You'll come home to yourself. What about purpose? Like, how do you think of, because I think like, yeah, there's like personality then there's like, and maybe like getting more in touch with your zone of genius with the things that you're really brought in. But like, I'm curious, like, what is especially like for someone, right? That like maybe their purpose was like, especially I think like founders are really good at turning stories to themselves and like, kind of like rationalizing it. It'd be like, oh, like maybe their true intent is like I just need to make a lot of money so I can feel safe and kind of like, you know, like make those parts happy. And then, you know, but they told that actually their purpose was bringing like, you know rockets to Mars, right? Like, do you see like purpose kind of getting rocked? Like after that foundation gets a little bit shaky? Well, just to clarify, it's not all about the chips it's often about, you know, the freedom optionality and choice, the ability to have self-expression the ability to double down on that deep self-directed curiosity that has always led the way. And you can still do that in a very kind of wholehearted, balanced way. Do values get skewed along the way because of a desire for safety or prestige? I think that can happen with anyone, but, you know self-study and the ability to kind of say things out loud and study yourself and look at the deeper why it tends to keep you in check so that you're aligned and you're remembering why you're doing certain things. And it's amazing to me how often when people are doing trauma resolution work and there's many ways we do it they could personify their biggest defense mechanism as if it was in the room, interview it and then befriend it and ask it the golden question which is to show me a memory or a scene of what was happening in my life that first made it necessary to take on this role. Let's say it's toil personified, then they get a flashback. And often, you know, for founders, it's the flashback of the initial sketches of their business. And they were like, oh my gosh, this was it. Like I was trying to create this place where people would do this and they were working for their own inner child the whole time. And it just got out of hand. It got bigger and it got more intense and it got more, the stakes got higher and more people got involved. But ultimately, a lot of people are just trying to impress their wounded inner child and show them, look, we did it. Yeah, I was gonna ask you actually about, I mean, impressing their wounded inner child is an interesting framing. Do you think it's also common? I mean, we talked about the chips in the pocket as maybe a scoreboard approximation of the amount of freedom of choice you have or the amount of safety that you might wanna have. One thing we haven't talked about as much, I'm just curious how much of a factor this is in what you've noticed, which is the approval from other people or getting other, how much of a factor is that for people to achieve this sense of safety or? That's absolutely huge, absolutely huge. This external validation from peers of, if you grew up your whole life and if you're nonconforming or an outlier or you're an undiagnosed savant or you were so bored and daydreaming in the class, a daydreaming, interrupting kid that sometimes paid attention and always pulled it out of the bag, but you were never appreciated as being the good, valuable student. And if your unceasing curiosity got you into trouble sometimes, and if you made life decisions that other people thought were reckless, like you left a very good company to go out on your own with very little savings to pursue a dream and everyone thought that you were absolutely crazy, but you knew in your heart that it was the right thing to do, that external stamp of approval of they knew what they were doing and they're intelligent and they're capable and they've created something that's worthwhile and helpful. And it's such a nourishing feeling. And it can be at the core is, did I do good? Unfortunately, relying on others as a measure for your success or your validity is a cool, fickle and unreliable measure. And you have to turn within and work with the shadow, work with the wounded inner child and actually be able to look at yourself and say, I believe in you and we did good here. And that state of arrested development of the ego, it's probably responsible for some of the most successful businesses over time. But it also is not a recipe for a happy life, but you can be happy and creative at the same time. You're happy and creative at the same time, I believe. Totally. And I have a follow up on that, which is like, so Mark and I, as we mentioned in the pre-recording, we're building a business together too. We do this podcast and one thing that we have just noted about the way that we've been able to stay energized and just like really find, I do think fun is the word I would use to describe, like we're having fun building this business while it's growing. And one of the things that we've noticed about the way we operate is kind of not getting ahead of our skis. Like we kind of take things, we always take like the next step that feels like the right step to both of us and kind of have very tight feedback loops. Anyways, my question for you is, if I were to summarize that as we're kind of like operating in a lot of ways based on gut and sure we're informing our gut with like data points and we're checking in with each other, but there's a lot that we do that like feels right, or at least like I think Mark's coming around to like realize like that's the way I like to operate and I think it's kind of a little infectious perhaps and now he's, I think Mark is also operating more of a place of gut with a lot of the decisions we make, but I'm just curious like Jillian, what have you come to learn about gut and just like what is that? Like what is the gut feeling and what, do a lot of people have a hard time connecting with that or do a lot of people you work with like have almost like a inexplicable connection with it? Just love to hear your riff on that. I think that's a really beautiful question because what you call gut feeling would be intuition. It's a deep, quiet knowing. First off, you can't access that interception, that deep, quiet knowing, unless you have a regulated autonomic nervous system. If you feel pervasively hypervigilant or let's say you're walking on eggshells and your business partner is a nightmare, I know you're not, just using that as an example, you're going to be so dysregulated that it's very hard to listen from within and tap into the intuition. The fact that, and there's a beautiful phrase in Transcendental Meditation where they use the term that the mind is like an ocean with a choppy surface full of waves, but if you go deep, deep, deep down, it's like still and quiet. And it seems to me like you are operating from, and I obviously know your wife and daughter and your lovely family, so kudos to them, that you're feeling grounded and psychologically safe and you can tap in and trust yourself and trust that deep inner knowing. And the fact that you're operating your business this way and you're co-creating in a fun, playful way, because you have to be psychologically safe to feel playful and you're able to bounce ideas off of each other and you're not afraid to make mistakes or say the wrong thing or let's have an experiment, let's try something, it may not work, but let's just be open to creativity, expansiveness and curiosity. You're operating from a zone of genius because it's playful, it's fun, it's curious and anything that has ever been worthwhile in this world was made from a place of curiosity and playfulness. The person that was willing to be, to look like the fool is the one that invented the next big thing. They had to think outside the box. So I think what you're saying in terms of intuition, the gut feeling, that is how you have to make good decisions, to deeply trust yourself. And at the same time, you also have to trust somatic feedback. Sometimes your body will give you a deep signal. The body feels the pain you don't allow yourself to express. And if you feel a very strong sensation around a person or a project or a customer, it's good to kind of put a hand there and actually take a breath and listen from within and say, if the sensation had words, what would it be telling me? For example, tightness in the throat is often the words you never got to say or the sensation of choking back tears. Or the tightness in the stomach can be like the Dante M or it can be a feeling of powerless, you know, powerlessness. So you operating from your gut, but cultivating an environment of psychological safety and playfulness, I think, is just a wonderful way of being at the frontier of trying new things and being expansive and not just doing what everyone else is doing, but going beyond the pale to something new, brave and more enduring. That resonates about Mark so much. I think, Mark, I'll give you the mic in just like 20 seconds, but I just want to say like first of all, that's a beautiful way of putting it. And secondly, I give Mark, I've told him so many times, like one of the reasons I think I'm able to show up creatively in this relationship is because of his emotional maturity. And I never feel like I'm walking on eggshells around Mark. And I think back to some of my past experiences where, you know, maybe I come in thinking like working for founders is a great example or a super type A kind of like managers in some in some senses. And you think there's a safe space until you take a risk or take a chance or show some vulnerability and how people react in that moment. I found like the amount of creativity and curiosity and like fun I can have in an environment is definitely capped by the amount of like safety I feel, like emotional safety I feel with the other people. So, yeah, you're pinpointing something that I think is ringing very true for me. I appreciate you sharing that. And also, I just want to say Americans wear this, you know, type A personality like it's like a beautiful badge of honor, but it was actually the psychological traits that put you at risk of cardiovascular disease and that rigid, neurotic, perfectionistic way of moving to the world that makes you feel like you're walking on eggshells. It's so deeply unhealthy, not just to the body, because we have somatic resonance, our autonomic nervous systems sync up and tune into each other, but it also closes your mind. You're not willing to take risks. You're not able to balance the duty of care with the dignity of risk and take wise risks. So I'm glad that you brought that up. You know, we've all had that feeling of being in a deeply toxic work environment where you're a shadow of your former self and you have to really, it takes a lot of courage to leave. Yeah, and that's what I love about working with Ben. That's like, I think he doesn't like to be bound by like rules or things or just like he's just like, Hey, like we should do this because this feels right. And I'm like, yeah, like that's like, it's just like way more energizing and fun. Right. Because like, it's like, you're not like, there's no two days that are the same. Right. And I think it always feels like we're kind of like moving towards what's most important, no matter of like kind of what, you know, what we had decided or like what we thought was the right idea. There's always like kind of like this like touch with reality and that I think is super healthy. And I think some of the best founders operate this way. And I think what I find so interesting is that at some point, like things stop operating that way. Right. And like kind of like all of a sudden, like intuition goes out the window and like we create processes and we do all these things. And I think it's no surprise. Like, I mean, like some of the companies that are growing fast is like tend to be founder led and it's usually like a founder that hasn't been willing to compromise that. But yeah, I'm just like, why do you think that is? Like that at some point, like companies like stop, like relying on intuition to make decisions and like kind of box themselves into like this crazy, like alignment meetings and like setting goals and like all these things that just kind of throws that out the window. Yeah. Well, it's actually you're right in what you're saying, you know, these dreams, all these businesses start off as a dream and like the way that you and Ben are, where you're almost like two playful, happy kids having an experiment and saying, what about this? What about this? Let's be curious. Let's be expansive. Let's be fun. Let's, you know, go beyond. And if it goes well, it goes well. And if not, we will redirect and think again and choose again. And that's a very confident, affirming, positive energy. And I think a lot of people, you know, develop ideas, products and businesses with that exact mindset. And that that is like the zone of brilliance. You know, if you can try to stay there, it's to be protected. It's such a precious thing. And then life happens and the world happens and we get, you know, black swan economic events and we get curveballs and you have, you know, people leaving you, activating your abandonment wound, you know, different key stakeholders in your business and you become less yourself and more your defense mechanisms. And your defense mechanisms of the hypervigilance and the fear and the panic and the perfectionism and the hyperindependence, I'll abandon you before you can abandon me. And this can obscure the zone of brilliance. And I guess a lot of the time, if you're the therapist of a founder, you're trying to peel back the layers of the defense mechanisms so they can operate from their essence and make decisions from a place of fate rather than fear. Alchemize pain into purpose, alchemize shame into self-forgiveness and, you know, learn to trust relationally because you can only go so far in one player mode, a lot further now than you used to be, because like you can found a business now and be your own version of Prometheus. But you used to only be able to go so far in one player mode. You can go much further now in this new world. But yeah, often people start off in that beautiful area of creativity, confidence, curiosity, courage, and they get lost along the way. And you're always trying to bring them back to their center. To their home. That's that is your home. That's your authentic self. In a weird way, kind of where my head was going when you were talking this is. The way we educate our kids, right, or the way like the Western education system works, I think we are kids and we obviously like gravitate towards our zone of genius. And there's things that just like we do, we love, like we just like could spend all day and we'd lost track of time. And then as we get older, like it's like, oh, no, you have to become a well-rounded human. So you take science and you take languages and you take math, art and to the point that almost you kind of lose touch with that person and you just don't even know who you are anymore. And then like then you go into like your professional life and you're like, like, you know, what is my purpose? You know, what am I? And you kind of have to, again, kind of like rediscover that journey. So. Yeah, I guess like is education just broken in that sense of like, like why not just like help, like if you find like if you have a sense, hey, my kid is really drawn to this, like why not just like let them, you know, go all in on that and kind of like really get them like and then just kind of find a way to use that superpower and like see how can that superpower build value into the world. And, you know, I'm not a parent yet. So like I noticed that I'm speaking a little bit out of like turn on experience, but just like an observation that when you were saying that, I'm like, oh, like it just feels similar to that kind of journey of a kid, too. I want to take a moment before we get back to the episode to tell you about Insider Loops. This is a company that Mark and I started because we just believe this should exist. Companies should be offering candidates the best possible preparation for their loops, yet what they give them is vague and often not very actionable. So we took the matter into our own hands. We've put together well-researched and continuously updated guides for PMs and reviewing at companies like Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, Stripe, DoorDash and more. If you're getting ready for PM interviews at those companies, go over to InsiderLoops.com and learn more. Now back to the episode. I think that's a beautiful observation, and I was actually at the planetarium with my daughter this past weekend and we were looking at the birth of stars and she had so many questions and I didn't want to say, I don't know. So I was looking up everything. I was like, how do I explain this to a three-year-old? And I was like, wow, she's so hungry for knowledge. And I was like, by the end, so exhausted. I was like, I feel like I deserve some credits from a university or something because I was researching it, tell her about it. But it's weird. I feel like the traditional educational system, really the meritocracy of it really valued a generalist. But if you look at the psychology of a savant, let's say, they would tend to score really amazing in some areas and terrible in others. And if they were bored and understimulated, they'd be a disruptive daydreamer and kicked out of the class, maybe class clown. And what if we just doubled down on our innate gifts and we stopped being generalist? What if we actually just realized early on, you have an emerging sense of curiosity and brilliance, obsession breeds brilliance. Do you have a deep self-directed curiosity or obsession in one particular topic? Why don't we double down on that? I think it's a fascinating question. And I think that the way society is going right now, this very much, this may happen. And I guess I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, Ben, you know, father of a three-year-old, a very boisterous, curious three-year-old, what you think? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm simultaneously, you know, it's interesting, Mark, is that yeah, I'm sure you're thinking about yourself as a kid right now as we're talking about this. And I'm thinking about myself as a kid. Maybe Jillian, you're thinking about yourself as a kid. But because the two of us also have children, we're also thinking about our kids in this conversation. So I'm trying to kind of like hold both at the same time as I'm listening to this. I think, so, you know, like with Gaia, with my daughter, I don't know like what her thing is yet. I don't know what her gifts are yet. I think there's like certainly things that she seems to like enjoy doing more and other things like she likes like watching. She likes, you know, her and Jillian's daughters like to like get on the stage and like dance around for everyone, be silly and goof around and entertain. So like, you know, there's an element of entertaining in there, you know, but I think there's many different places in life where being entertaining can serve her. You know, like I don't think there's like one swim lane for that. I think she could get on stage on Broadway. She could be an actress. She could write interesting things that people find entertaining or be an author. She could do whatever the hell we're doing right now, like have a podcast. I don't know. There's an, I think people, I think people will always want to be entertained and informed and educated by people they find interesting and compelling. Like Jillian, as you're talking, like it's very interesting to hear you talk, right? Like that is, that is something there's, there's a job security, let's say. And being a, being a compelling thinker and a compelling speaker who can like get someone to like listen and in the act of listening, learn about themselves. And so, so Gaia, I can definitely tell that she's, you know, like there's a Taylor Swift three-hour video on like Disney Plus and Gaia, like for some reason, likes the first, loves the first 20 minutes, like anchored in. And then she's like, this is too long, you know? And it's like, so she goes from like, she goes from like loving it and being really transfixed by it and observing every little motion. And then Jillian, you've seen some of these motions that she makes, she's copying, right? Like they, they like to imitate what they see and they like to recreate it. So I think kids at this stage, I don't know how reliable of a, of a proxy, what they're into, what she's into right now will be when she's like 18 years old or 25 years old. But there's an essence in there to your point, Jillian. There's something in there that I probably just am not tuned into enough. I'm not sensitive enough or I'm not, I don't observe her enough. You know, like she's at daycare like eight, eight hours a day or whatever that is. And the truth is like, we don't see our kids all day. We don't observe them all day. We don't see what they do in lots of situations. We have data points, but, you know, I do learn more about Gaia when we take a vacation together because I have more opportunities to observe how she handles various, like a wider swath of scenarios and, and kind of like input output reaction situation. So like, that's one of the reasons I love, I'm excited to go to Europe for August is because I always feel like I come back from the trip that we take together to Europe with almost like a better understanding of, it's not just her. It's like, it's Carol. It's like, you know, you're just like spending all day together every day. You get, you have more data points about people. So anyways, I feel like I'm kind of rambling, but just to, and then I'll say one more thing about just forgetting for a second about my role as a parent, but just kind of like thinking about myself coming up on 40 and how I want to, like what I, looking back, like, I think so much of that, like, I basically have zero memories from before I was six. So it's like, I don't, I really don't. And that's fascinating. And I suspect it's accepted. I'm sure we can dig out some repressed memories. Yeah, I'm sure we could. Um, and at the same time, it's almost like my story starts with arguably my, my, my, my origin story starts with like arguably one of my biggest traumas in life, which was moving to Israel from, from the U S when I was six and being thrown into a classroom with a bunch of kids that just speak Hebrew and no one speaks any English. And I, the teachers didn't speak in English. I lost my basic ability to communicate what my needs and to understand the needs and to understand what's going around me. And I think that still follows me. And I don't say haunts me, but it's like one of my deepest fears is, is I think deep down to find myself back in a place where I cannot make what I want. Like, I can't communicate myself and I can't understand the people around me. So it's like, it went from this very traumatizing experience, like a place where I'm, I think it's become a superpower of mine to try to really, um, maintain a very clear story in my head at all times about what I need and how to communicate that to other people and to make sure that I understand what they need and how, and like to, to kind of create that, um, stasis of sorts when it comes to the narrative structure I live inside of, if that makes sense. I just can't imagine what it would have been like for a six year old, um, to go without speaking the language, you know, assimilate or be alienated and to have all of these inward thoughts that were fun and curious and connection seeking and feeling like you couldn't be yourself. And what a corrective experience your Substack is. And this podcast is because you create safe spaces for brave conversations and you connect people and you're using your voice now in such a powerful way. And it feels like a soothing balm for that core wound. Every time you do that and you create that space, it's kind of healing the past, you know, all of the times you never got to say what you needed to say or feel understood. Thank you. I mean, I certainly feel like that's true. And when I think back, when I think, when I zoom out to like how, you know, like the, like the coaching that I do or like the products that we're building, like there's kind of like a theme of like helping people be understood in some sense, you know? And like, I think I have actually never connected the dots on that until right now, as we're kind of like talking through it. But there's, it's, it's, for every person, that thing is probably different. But for me, if let's say for a second that helping people feel understood or understanding people are, you know, creating a sense of understanding, uh, self-understanding is a superpower of mine, then that thing for me feels kind of like an inexhaustible well of like energy, you know? Like when you can tap into that thing, it's almost like there's no such thing as like doing too much of it. And I'm, I'm, I'm curious to get your guys' reactions because I'm talking way too much, but like, that's kind of what's, what's come to mind. I'm curious, like, to get like Jillian's take here, but so is this an example of like a healed wound that like, that clearly has like, just that, that's not like serving Ben really well, or is like, how do you know if like a wound is fully healed or not in this sense? That's a very profound question. Um, I guess we have to think of it like scar tissue of the skin. Um, when you wound the skin, a scar develops and it covers it like a slip cover. It's never as strong as the original skin. So if let's say, um, Ben was the only English speaker in a room, again, it would awaken all of the old feelings. It could be the bite that fits the wound. And once again, he would be made to feel the way he was. Um, also the world of, you know, Also, the world of, you know, tech can be a lonely place. You can sometimes feel isolated or feel like you're working on your own. He had to creatively find ways to find human connection and meaning in his work that was energy giving, that was invigorating, so that he could really come into bloom and be, you know, his full self. So yeah, it's hard when you say, is it a healed wound? I think that the unexamined history is doomed to repetition. So when we get to know our Achilles heel, or we get to know our core wound, or we know the bite that fits the wound, we can choose people, places and experiences that are in alignment with the life that we need to have to feel good. But it's always going to be a diathesis or a vulnerability in some way. I hope that's new, not too nihilistic, that that's a hopeful takeaway, because I am hopeful I think we can create our own heaven or hell based off of our degree of self-study and how well we know ourselves. There's also a dark part of psychology, which Freud would call repetition compulsion, and this is the unconscious inclination to reenact what is familiar, to choose familiar chaos rather than unpredictable calm. To put it very simply, if the three of us were in a circle and we put all our problems in the middle of the circle and I said, you can pick anyone's problems, you would probably pick your own again. You know how they go. It's a pain you know how to tolerate. You want to solve the problem and you have an unconscious desire for a reparation fantasy. If you can solve the problem, you'll deem the earlier pain null and void. This is why people often marry the archetypal energy of the parent whose approval they sought the most, or they encounter the same person in different faces teaching them the same karmic energies. So basically what I'm saying is going into the past is not so bad. If the past is intruding on your present, this is indicative of trauma. But when you know where your wound is and you know where your scars are, you can actually start to create a life that is not aggravating those vulnerabilities and one where you start to really less your defense mechanisms and you're more yourself. Is it therapeutic to like throw myself, I'm just curious, to throw myself back into manufactured environment where I'm simulating what that was like? Yeah, it's called prolonged exposure. It's called prolonged exposure. Prolonged exposure. So is this me? Would an example be like, I don't know, like moving to some like village for like a week where no one speaks with me, like no one understands English, I don't speak their language and just trying to like get around or like, is that an example? Why don't you move to Panama with Mark? You can go there. Yeah, I guess living in a Spanish speaking... Well, the problem is I speak one of the... The way I express myself is like a very common language. So it's kind of hard to... It's almost like hard to remanufacture it. It's one of the central arguments in trauma resolution theory is that originally they would have said, yes, prolonged exposure is very helpful because fear and avoidance go hand in hand. And what you're phobic of, if you continue to avoid it, it continues to get scary. The evidence based modalities for trauma resolution have moved beyond prolonged exposure to a place of like EMDR, somatic experiencing. What I would personally recommend if you were my client is that we would probably process some of those early memories of being six. The meaning you need of them at the time, the childlike meaning would be one of shame. Like I'm not good enough. I'm stuck. I'm trapped. We would try to bring down that wound through EMDR, where you've one foot in the present, one foot in the past, and you are compassionately witnessing, rescuing and affirming the part of you that got stuck. And then we would look at why is risking opportunities in the present that could possibly create a corrective experience. However, without me saying that, you've already been doing this the whole time. And that's why your body feels so regulated and you feel so, you know, content in your work life, at your family life. You feel curious, playful, expansive. You've already been doing this for yourself in big and small ways for a long time. Yeah, I think. Sorry. Yeah, no, that's it. The end. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, like, I think, like, Ben, your question is like, would go into like a random village for like a week, solve it. I'm like, for me, when I'm like, when I find my wounds coming back is when there's something like high stakes that I care about. And I just cannot be like, has to be something that I really care about. That's like, I'm getting on the way from what I want and where I am right now. And we can cut this if it's too personal, Ben, but like, I feel like sometimes we have arguments where it's heated, but I feel like the time that's getting the most heated when we fought was when, I don't know if you remember, there was a time where you kept saying something and I just, and I just kept talking past that point to the point that you just were not feeling hurt by me. And that like kind of like was like the point that I saw like the biggest, like kind of almost like emotional reaction to you. And like, that's what came up to me when you were sharing that, because you're like, even though you were saying something, like I wasn't listening. So it's almost like you're just like, and I kind of like did not make the point of how you heard be like, Hey, like you're saying that you don't like this thing that we're doing and I just keep ignoring it and keep pushing the ball forward. And you're like, dude, like you're just not listening. And that's, and that's got, and that's, so yeah, we definitely shouldn't cut that. But like, I think that when I think back to some of, it's definitely a pattern. The cool thing about being a co-founder with you is like, I don't, I don't have to worry about you like firing me. You know what I mean? Like, it's like we, we kind of, we're kind of married in a sense, like we got to work through it and there's safety in that commitment. I also know you're like a good faith actor and stuff, but like in past work relationships, I got in trouble with this because there was a point I was trying to make and I wasn't feeling heard. But the person who wasn't hearing me was maybe an executive or maybe my manager or maybe a peer and the perception of, it's almost like for me, the shadow manifestation of this characteristic is basically like being stubborn or not letting something go or being overly fixated on my own goals or my own needs kind of, right? So there's like, there's a certain, and if you almost like flip it, what's the opposite of this is it's like being very easygoing, right? Oh, like you want to go in this direction? Sure. Let's go there. Like, you want to go in this direction? Sure. Let's go there. So it's like, there's something about feeling rooted in some things. Like if I, if I feel like there's a thing that's really important, it's very hard for me to like move. It's very hard for me to move forward in the conversation if we can't agree on something that feels really solid to me. It's because if you're, if you're trying to like collaborate with someone, or at least in my head, it's like, how are you supposed to like take action together if you can't have a shared sense of like the story or the facts or the reality or the assumptions. And so for me, it's like, hey, like, yeah, anyways, I'll, I'll pause there. But like, I think that thing you're describing and that way you felt about it is not surprising to me. And at the same time, in those moments, it's like, it's, it is kind of fight or flight. And I, and I, and I, and I always fight. Like I never, I don't have, I don't know how to flight. Thank you for bringing that up, Mark, because it's a wonderful example in business where you inadvertently aggravate the bite, you create the bite that fits the wound. And clinically, it would be called an ab reaction. It's like, ooh, that was a big reaction to something small, but actually the prologue of the story will always give you all the context you could ever want. And in the backdrop, the contextual backdrop of you feeling, I can only imagine, you know, alienated or unheard or on the outside. You know, as a six-year-old with the language barrier, for you to feel that in your work marriage, it's going to aggravate these feelings of, you know, I don't feel safe and I need you to hear me and what are we doing? The other thing that we didn't really touch off of in this podcast that you brought up then that I think is really valuable to say is that a lot of people choose self-sovereignty. They choose to own themselves because the power differential of somebody having control over your livelihood or your security is so in a way scary that it feels much more comfortable to own yourself. And I say that as someone who left, you know, the capitalist bureaucratic ladder when I was 28. Like, I lasted very little time there and I just wanted self-sovereignty to own myself and to have the freedom on optionality and choice of who I work with and for. But yeah, I think a lot of people choose this path because of a need for safety and self-expression. And you know, you illustrated that really well with, you know, that example. So if I were, you know, if I wanted to be like, okay, like, I'm sure that I have plenty of wounds in my life right now and that are probably like hurting me in some way. And I'm sure some of them are also helping me, but like, how would I find like the top one, two or three and like start making progress towards like that healing and coming to terms with them and yeah. This is actually a very lovely question. Trauma leaves behind clues, so you don't need to go looking for them. But if you're noticing that there are certain things in your life that are difficult, painful, maybe there's a telltale sensation in your body, a kind of a somatic memory, like every time I try to public speak, I get this tightness in my throat. Or, you know, every time I feel unheard or someone's asking me to repeat, repeat, repeat on the phone, it makes me feel just really activated. Trauma always leaves behind clues. There's a few things that you can do on your own, even outside of therapy, that can be very helpful. One thing is, I think the schema map of this psychological Achilles heel can be helpful If you know what your negative I am belief is, you could take the time to actually map it out and go, OK, this is where I learned it. It can lose a little bit of its power because you're often very young in these memories and you took on a major accountability or responsibility for them. Fairborn, a Scottish psychiatrist, studied children that had endured abuse and they tend to be overly accountable for things because it gives them a mirage of control. When you're a child, you have no discernment over the bullies in the schoolyard or the antagonist at home, so you tend to be very responsible, everything is your fault. And just mapping it out can be very, very helpful. The other strategy that I think is quite helpful is if you have relational strife in your life. There's a technique called, it's called the erotic emotional map. And you use adjectives to describe the relationship you had with both parents, three to five adjectives during five to 12 years old. And then you look at key archetypal figures in your life and you look at if there's archetypal echoes and perhaps you're having an unconscious reenactment in your adult life with someone reminiscent of a parent who made you feel a certain way. And I actually am giving away the erotic emotional map for free for anyone that is pre-ordering my book, shameless plug, I'm sorry. So I have a live mini class and a workbook. But I also, I post about it a lot, but I think that knowing your core negative belief and knowing the archetypal echoes is a great way of you going, okay, now I know my blind spots. I know the areas I'm strong in. I know the areas I need more tenderness in. And I know myself. And now I, and information is power. And then you're able to make informed decisions that are aligned. Mark, I want to, I do have a hard stop in 11 minutes and I want to make sure we have plenty of time for our kind of like wrap-up questions and gratitude corner. So I had maybe one more quick, maybe I don't know if it's a quick question, but I had one follow-up on that if that's okay, and then maybe we start wrapping. Yeah. So Mark wouldn't ask this about himself, but I know this that he's not yet, you know, married or whatever. He's kind of like meeting people and looking for his life partner. And I'm sure some of the people listening are probably in a similar boat. I'm curious, like, is there a connection between anything that we've talked about so far with, I don't know if advice is too big of a word that you'd give people who are like thinking about how to connect the dots between their childhood traumas or their wounds with like what they might want to think about with the people that they're, like, it's very transactional sounding, but like if when you're evaluating like a life partner or something like that. Well, first off, that is a huge question. It's the most important decision in your life, especially if you have kids with the wrong person. It can, it can absolutely be a very difficult place to be. I think that could be its whole own episode, actually, and that's something I can cover in two minutes. It's like a little question to finish the episode, but it sounds like there's a lot. A lot there. I think being aware of this element of repetition, compulsion and, you know, reenacting familiar dynamics and if I could say anything, I really would like people to get to a place where they don't misinterpret contention for passion, where they look at the way a person makes them feel. You know, sometimes you'll be with someone for a few hours and you'll walk away feeling happy, relaxed, fun, playful, interesting, and other people, it will open up a whole ball of insecurities like you're walking in eggshells. Some people will find that very erotic. They'll go, wow, the erotic equation, attraction plus obstacle equals romance. You know, this person is so hard to please and that's going to, they're going to keep chasing that like a carrot under their nose. But often that adrenaline and cortisol is not attraction, it can be re-traumatization. So I would love to delve into this a lot more because I think it's the most interesting topic, but I feel like really going within and making gut decisions, as you say, you know, with your intuition and then walk away from dates and just write down three I am beliefs. Do an inventory of the way a person makes you feel about yourself in their company. If a person makes you feel even better, they make me feel safe, they make me feel comfortable, they make me feel interesting, they make me feel small, they make me feel insecure, they make me feel not good enough. Do you want to live your life with someone who is going to continuously make you feel like a smaller, meeker, more apologetic version of yourself? Or would you like someone that will give you the wings to fly in a safe space to land? I hope you choose the latter. And I hope that you find psychological safety attractive. And that would be my synopsis. I love it. Perfect. All right, Mark, you have your marching orders. So okay, with that said, you know, you do have a really exciting book coming up. And I want to give you a chance to kind of make sure people can find you and find it. So like our two questions, we'll do a gratitude corner. So where can first of all, thank you so much for doing this. Just to be really clear about that. This was awesome. I really, really enjoyed it. If someone who's listening to this wants to learn more about what you're thinking about, what you're up to, where would you have them go to follow you and learn more? And then how can the audience be helpful to you? So I'm on everything as Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown. I have a very long, awkward name, but I'm sure it'll be on the header of this podcast. My substack is called Psyche's Awakening. And that is because I have a book coming out in September with Harper Collins. It's called Psyche's Awakening, a guide to emotional and somatic healing through the wisdom of Greek myth. It's 11 short Greek mythological stories with 11 psychological principles and 11 self-directed healing techniques. And it is basically a roadmap to inner alchemy. You know, shame into solidness, pain into purpose, wounds into wisdom. If you like the conversation, you know, I actually got a lot of ideas for my book from my followers on Instagram and TikTok because they would say things about my posts like Medusa had the perfect defense mechanism or you can't talk about Sisyphus without bringing up Albert Camus. In a way, I feel like they co-wrote the book with me because I have really wonderful followers that are very insightful and intelligent. And it's a nice, thoughtful community of people that lead with curiosity. So if you want to join, we'd be happy to have you. And I forgot the rest of the question. Was it the gratitude corner or? So how can the audience? So we will definitely include the links to to anything that you'd like to send people to like the pre-order of your book, I think is one thing we want to make sure. I think we have the worksheet that gives people a discount. Was it a discount on the book? Yeah, I have a discount for your listeners if they use code Psyche with books.org. But I'll put it all at the bottom because I don't want it to be boring for people that are listening. We'll link all the social accounts as well so they can follow and comment along and maybe co-create even the next book too. Brilliant. Yeah. And then anything else that the audience can do to be helpful. Oh no, if you've gotten this far and you've listened to me talk for an hour about my favorite topic, then you've done enough. Amazing. Yeah. So excited. I'll definitely be pre-ordering the book. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited. And the final question, which is one of our favorite questions, is like, you know, you've had an awesome journey to this point from teaching to writing books to working with amazing founders. So we wanted to give you a chance to maybe thank one or two people that have played a key role in your journey so far. Yeah. Thank you. That's so kind of you to say. I will say that after I wrote the textbook in 2021, and then I had my daughters Genevieve and Juliet, I realized that the past, the previous 10 years before that of writing academic texts, none of that information was going to get passed down. And I needed to find a way, because my childhood in Ireland was, you know, folklore, mythology, fairy tales, Aesop's fables. I needed to find a way of passing on that knowledge in a palatable way, in a story way, because after safety and nurturance, we need stories. Tell me a story so I can understand the world. And I wrote Psyche's Awakening for them. So I owe, basically, little copies I've sold so far to them, and I hope the book is liked and appreciated. And I also want to thank my husband. I met him almost 20 years ago, and it's been really nice to grow up together and to have someone that has always given me the wings to fly in a safe space to land. So thank you, Grant. Beautiful. Amazing. Well, thank you. Beautiful. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for doing this. And I'm really excited for a bunch more people to discover you and your work and just like how you think about stuff as part of this tour that you're doing right now to promote the book. And I'm sure a lot of really good things will come from it. So thanks for doing this. Thank you. Thank you both for having me. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. That's a wrap.