#128: Inside the morning ritual that re-energized our podcast | Ben Erez & Marc Baselga (co-founders, Insider Loops)

All right we're live. We are live man. I've been digging these one-on-one episodes we're doing. I think I look forward to them. I love having guests too but I think it's more of a dialogue obviously if there's only two people and then we we've been you know carving out extra time to record conversations between just the two of us about topics that are top of mind for us and this exact this exact conversation we're scheduling right now is a is a result of some decisions we made recently as we were kind of navigating what was like arguably one of the most challenging phases I mean you and I have been good throughout the whole thing but more like for the business like I think the business faced a little bit of headwinds we're a little behind on not a little behind we're like you know behind on our goals and we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to navigate that slowdown period and yeah so like what what I'd love to kind of kick off with is like what what what stands out to you as like maybe the moment when that slowdown or like the headwinds started and like I guess how did you know we were entering like a slow period or we were in a slow period yeah and so to me it was more of like there was like a mismatch between like our inputs and our outputs right and I think like if we look at the history of the company like we would see hey like when we do something and we invest our time somewhere the numbers go up and to the right right and in this case and I don't think like number of time that we're spending in the business like went down but we basically the things the activities that we were doing for the business were not leading to kind of the graphs going up and to the right right and I'd even though and then I even remember at some point be like oh man I need to maybe spend more time here and I remember like maybe spend a couple weeks spending more time here and still like and realize like actually there's no relation between time spent and outputs and then to me that was the clear case like hey actually we might be spending our time in the right place and in order to know where to spend the time actually we might need to take a break and I take a step back and be like hey like what like what's actually going on I get a diagnosis of why are the numbers not getting to the place where we expected them to be and so yeah I think that's just to summarize it and just like a mismatch between inputs and outputs and also of course like a mismatch between like expectations versus reality yeah no that's it that's that's a good that's a good way to kick this off I would add some additional context because as you're talking it was like jigging my memory a bit like so you know we launched in like it's like September of 2025 and had a very kind of like mild ramp you know we definitely validated there's demand for what we're doing went into the new year with a very ambitious goal for us at the time for April and then by the time April came around it coincided with there's like a perfect storm of circumstances we had like the Anthropic guide we had someone from Anthropic went on Lenny's podcast and talked about how they're gonna be hiring a lot of PMs and we made a post that mentioned that episode that got I think some engagement from Lenny and his guests and basically drove as far as I know that was the first price that was the first major credible offering for people that want to get the intel about Anthropics interviews so I think there's this like big wave of pent-up demand that came to us and we capitalized on that and end up having like a blockbuster April and I think we kind of got we're like oh that's our new baseline like the you know we just increased the whole baseline yeah and then I think we we blew that April goal of the water like yeah and it was a goal that I think we said but if we kind of both worries we had no idea like yeah we had no idea like you know aim for the stars landing the moon type of thing right and yes yes and and I think the mean the biggest launch we did after the Anthropic guide was meta so we launched the meta guide and knew that was gonna be a little slow because of the layoffs and the headcount but basically our May ended up being slower than April but still much like May was basically still ahead of our April goal June was still ahead of our April goal but still down a little bit from where May was and then by the time I'm sorry and then but June and then by the time the first week of July came around let's say it was maybe the last week of June or the first week of July I think the last week of June where I go this is not trending in the right direction yeah and I think and the very simple way to know is like sales were down right and sales were down and then we went to our analytics and we saw their traffic is down too and it's like a very clear correlation between traffic and sales so we're like okay like you know something's going on here let's let's debug what's going on the other things that were going on in parallel with all this is we had to kind of tapped a couple of people that we trust when it comes to like paid spend to see whether it's worth starting to spend money on ads we got asked some very basic question about website conversion and such back in say like May or June and we didn't have really good answers for ourselves even so we implemented post hog and I think we kind of leveled up our whole analytics game and started to piece together a much more compelling story about like how our website is converting where is our traffic coming from and realize that yes traffic is down so we have to start to think of ways to drive more traffic but also our conversion for the existing traffic on the site is below where it needs to be and we could do much better so I'd say fast-forwarding to today and we could talk about like how we navigated this process and how we think about it moving forward because it's not done but I think we've you know roughly doubled our website conversion with some of the changes that we made in that period and then also we've started to kind of regenerate traffic to the site we've increased prices to reflect the value for the from the people that who are messaging us like we're getting a lot of customer success stories and testimonials letting us know that like this is an incredible product that is just not available from anyone else and it's worth 300 it's worth 400 too so we raised price to 400 keeping our scholarship in place the scholarship program itself was something that we did because we got inspired by the Eric Greece episode on Lenny's talking about building incorruptible companies we literally changed we created a new document in our our paperwork and like yeah and our operating agreement that has some principles that we'd never stated before as a result of that but then we also launched the scholarship program and the scholarship program I think gave us something to talk about that drove traffic and gave made the guides a lot more accessible to people who are maybe impacted by layoffs or facing financial hardship and so like we've made a lot of these changes and I'd say we've reversed the trend we still have a lot of work to do but yeah yeah I'm hoping we can kind of unpack a little bit of how we navigated that adversity and hopefully yeah it's not a question of if but like when we run into adversity more and I'd love to be able to maybe point back to this conversation something gives us some way to navigate it yeah and I think the the other piece I'll say of like that was maybe the more scary piece right it's like when we kind of like I realized okay we're in a bad place like you know quote-unquote bad place is like I think at some point to like we kind of like maybe lost love of the like I think we both been really excited about what we're building I would say like 98% of the time and I think in that time I think like almost the excitement and the fun that we're talking was kind of like almost like had like I just felt like it had just like kind of like been sucked out of the room a little bit and yeah same and I think part of it was like again right like I've mentioned this I think before in the podcast but like I actually don't think like burnout comes from like and working really hard and like you know like there's people like you know Elon that work you know 19 or 20 hour days and there's probably not there's people that are not that level but like that still work a lot aren't nowhere near to be burned out so to me like burnout is less about like how much time you're spending and how much energy is a lot more about like when the inputs don't match the outputs right and like there's like clearly like an opportunity cost and you feel like that's not worth it I think we both were kind of like oof like you know we're not like hitting what we want and and I think that in a way like I think kind of like it's like this like almost a vicious cycle right that like you know you and you you don't hit the expectations it just becomes less fun and so I think the first thing that I think it was like helpful for me was like like naming the situation right with a hey this sucks right like or like you know this is not like you know I don't like this right and I think just like I think that almost kind of for me like released a lot of like and weight off my shoulders because like it was like out in the open and I'm like okay and then like you saying yes I agree like is anything that I like a lot as a permission to be like okay like we should change things right I think and I think that permission to be like okay we should kind of go deep look at ourselves in the mirror and explore solutions was actually like I think probably the first inability step that I think going back to your your question like how do we what are the things that we learned that are like we can carry forward that seems like a really good one right if I just like naming it yeah I I totally agree I remember I think I was on was on vacation because vacation last week of June you're kind of like exchanging some voice messages and I was you know we were like seeing the the numbers you know just continue and being like man like how do we reverse this like we got a regain our momentum like I think I kept and I still kind of talked to you all the time about how much I think momentum is important and I think what I think is important how do you might how do you find momentum so I think the context of why I mentioned it will help me define it so like I remember telling you I'm like you know we did we talked about this a little bit but like I'm sitting on the beach it's beautiful nothing's wrong and I'm like having a hard time enjoying this it's like why am I having a hard time enjoying this I feel like I'm slacking I think I'm I feel like I'm falling behind if the business was going gangbusters while I was just sitting on the beach I'd probably be feeling really good but because the business is like going through some headwinds I'm feeling not not as good but I'm giving myself this like treat this reward which is this vacation with my wife and daughter and I wish I could enjoy it but I can't right and and I remember sitting with that feeling of like falling behind losing momentum and I remember when I came back I told you about all that and how much how much how energized I was to be back and to be kind of like getting back into things obviously not as quote-unquote fun as being at the beach but I felt like the the the joy was coming back and I told you I underestimated how fast I felt like I kind of got back to a place where I was feeling like I'm getting productive and I'm being productive and so to me momentum is kind of like the feeling that gets developed when you start to take steps towards your goals you take one step for me like taking action is energizing so like I take an action and then I want to take another action and then I want to take another action and then I want to take another action and each of those actions if they're the right actions ideally to your earlier point have some kind of output or some kind of impact and then you like go to sleep at the end of the day and then the next day there's a bunch of stuff that came back from all the actions that you took the day before whether that's an email that you sent that drove sales or signups or a scholarship program we launched that got people submitting the Google form or someone we know at one of these companies giving us feedback on the guide that I can then use to like make the guide better and when we make the guide better now we can you know we have another thing to put in the monthly guide update emails which and the changelog it's another entry and we can even do a post about it or talk about it or taught me something new so like this sense of like learning and growing and contributing to some kind of growing asset of some kind or contributing to a flywheel in some sense is a very energizing feeling for me like yeah the the flywheel something that's been coming up for me a lot in the last two and a half years just building my own solopreneur stuff and fractional work and just insider loops is probably like I'm the combination of like insider loops and super insider like that like the what we do together and the content side and what we're building from a product perspective feed each other so nicely that you know I guess like when it feels like the various it's almost like one things output becomes another things input like so it's like I've contributed this system and then that immediately drives value for this other part of the system that gets this other part of the system cranking it's almost like the whole machine starts to accelerate yeah and and then the flip side of that which is losing momentum is when you start to like inject less energy into the system everything starts to kind of slow down is what it feels like so there's a paranoia that I have that you know taking time off will just make things go to zero right that's the kind of like what's underneath it all and then injecting energy is what's required to get it to have some kind of escape velocity so that I could take time off without slowing down and we're just not I don't feel like we're there yeah like I think we still need to inject like a tremendous amount of energy for things to get where they need to go yeah I mean it's interesting because I think what I'm I think there's like another element that I'm not sure maybe you can help me come up with like a right term for it but like I remember I was in the jungle and and one of the discussions that we had is that actually like a lot of times we knew what the action that we had to take but we were not excited about it or like it almost felt like we just had like lost ourselves almost in the action and I'm made more talking about myself right if I kind of like we had a discussion where we almost had like and different ways like similar like we're like a different spectrum of the same problem like hey like maybe our content is not hitting as much as it should and for me it was like hey I'm actually showing up every day I'm being consistent but like I just like I kind of lost almost like the enthusiasm and the energy and the fun that comes around it because it almost has become like a chore. Specifically with like all the LinkedIn posting and stuff. Exactly like LinkedIn posts like I like you know like I'm very good at like hey setting up a goal and then kind of committing to that goal like I probably like post it like at least six days a week for the last like let's call it three three or four years and you and Darius Hines were kind of like um you know my problem is that I'm actually like you know like I get excited about a piece of content but like I just like need to show up every day and it's just like hard for me to like have the accountability to show up every day and then you were kind of like trying to convince me like dude you should build a system so I can post every day I'm like but that's what I'm doing and I'm like it sucks and it's like not leading to results that I want so I think there was like almost like at that point too like we realized hey like sometimes not like momentum is not just about taking the action is about like almost like taking action but also like in a way that and like is it like injecting energy and fun like is it like kind of doing something that's uniquely us like I don't know what what that missing piece is but like there's something I like just like you know I think we were taking the right action but it was just not working the way we you know it should be working or yeah yeah and I would just add a little bit more context before I tell you what I think it is which is the reason we spent so much time we narrowed in on content was because we had been working with this kind of like general idea that we're gonna spend you know for a long time I was like 50% of our time on like product core product improvements and 50% of our time on kind of go-to-market kind of stuff and for a long time we didn't really know go-to-market meant for us and we don't come from go-to-market like background so we kind of had a big bucket of unknown unknowns around go-to-market and so we got we talked to some people we trust and then basically they're like look like you know in addition to your analytics needing work like even if you had perfect information I'm not sure spending money on acquiring traffic is the right move for you at this point because you would have to catch people at the right time you're not really sure how to catch them at the right time with that targeting so it's probably much better for you to like you know and they asked us some questions like how have you been getting your customers so far and we're like yeah we've got we do all this content like podcast and sub stack and we have followings on LinkedIn and stuff so you know we and oftentimes people follow us for like months sometimes years before they buy anything we have to sell and so we have like no customer acquisition cost in that sense and they're like well you're gonna go out there and spend all this money to try to get basically in front of all of those people and places that are gonna charge you a lot of money to do that and you're gonna be really bad at it so you're probably gonna burn a lot of money and to learn it's probably not gonna look you're probably not gonna be able to like throw as much money at it as you want to get the speed of learnings that you want so it's probably a good idea for you to do paid acquisition at some point but like it sounds like you have some low-hanging fruit right now around you know SEO and content yeah and like doubling down on that and so that kind of allowed us to convert what was in our head up until that point like this go-to-market swimlane into like a content swimlane yeah and so then it became okay 50% product 50% content should it be 50-50 or should it be different and we're like let's go 70% just like turn this thing to reverse the trend yeah let's go 70% content and 30% product because by the way historically I think before this summer it was probably more like 70% product 30% content and in the first few months like 100% product 90% product yeah yeah it was um we obviously always had to think a little bit about traffic but like yeah I think that as the goals grew we couldn't be satisfied with the sales that we were getting like you know we need to grow the baseline right so yeah so that'll let us to like why content matters which led to the point where you're talking about we're like okay like if we're gonna spend 70% of our bullets for the next X number of months on content and you're getting less excited you're consistent but getting disenchanted and losing energy and then I'm not showing up and posting because I am also I mean I guess like not sufficiently motivated slash lacking I think the accountability system thing was probably a crutch in hindsight like I think it was I wasn't excited when I'm excited about something it's actually really hard to stop me from doing it so I probably so the fact that I wasn't doing these things is to me indicative I wasn't excited about them yeah and kind of like the name because we haven't fully solved it but I think we're feeling so much more excited like what we're doing right now this conversation is an example of a type of content that we get excited to do and I think may or may not drive sales but it's kind of irrelevant what we're what we realize is like we need to be top of mind people need to trust us not in a manufactured trust kind of way but like we truly believe if they knew us and they knew why we're doing what we're doing and how we're doing what we're doing us and they knew why we're doing what we're doing and how we're doing what we're doing, they would realize this is a very unique offering that no one else is selling and it's going to be valuable and it's going to be worth my time and I'd be contributing to a business that I feel good about buying from. I'm proud of the way we're building things and the way we do what we do and I think it's very differentiated and it's a high ROI purchase for people. So why wouldn't I want more people to know about it? I want more people to know about it because it's worth knowing about. And so we needed to figure out how can we generate the kind of content that we get excited to generate and then separately from generating the content, how do we get really good at repurposing and kind of like maximizing the amount of distribution and traffic and eyeballs and impressions and stuff and engagement that we can get with the content that we produce. And so the way I kind of think about it is like we're finding founder content fit. Yeah and this feels like so silly when you say it out loud but I think one of the biggest kind of realizations that I had in this journey was actually when we were having like this back and forth on like when you were like, hey, I'm not showing up because I'm not consistent and every bullet that we're missing here, like if I'm only posting three times a week, we're missing four bullets that are valuable, right? And then I think our first solution was to build a system where it would literally like just like you were like, why don't we just have something that drops the post end to end, right? And then I actually, I think like I tried to do one, like the first step was like, so then we're like, hey, actually like you had this really good idea like a few weeks ago where we're like, hey, like why don't you create a system that looks for news for all the companies that we have guides for and see like what interesting releases are there, right? And like what they're doing. And then that could be a really interesting point of like we get something interesting to talk about and then we can kind of use that moment to promote insider loops, right? And I think that was maybe like inspired on what had happened in April with Lenny and his podcast episode about with the head of growth at Anthropic. And there was actually a lot of interesting things that happened there at the same time too. We started also like looking for job openings, right? Because we thought, hey, job opening is actually like a great window into the strategy of the company. Like on what part of the org they're growing, which where they're investing. So we're like, okay, like I think there could be a very like relevant content for people that might or may not be thinking to like apply for these roles. And then if, you know, they apply to these roles and they hear from us, then we, of course, it's like makes sense that they'll buy like our guides. And at first, like the system was like, just like creating, like be like, hey, this happened. Why? And you're like, dude, like there's still a lot of work for me, right? Like I need to go, like come up with like an angle. And once I have the angle, I need to draft it. And so then we're like, you're like, why don't you just create a system that literally drops the post for me? And I was like, I was like, man, that's really hard. I've been down that road before. Yeah. But, but I was like, but I was like, actually, what I think we could do is I could take those ideas and create an outline, right? And then I remember- Like a prompt that I could put into my LLM, right? Right, right. And that was basically like kind of like the thesis, the news, like kind of like a few ideas for the hook and then like the body and then like the call to action idea, right? And then like use it for a few days and, and we're like, and we're like, bro, like this post are so bad. Like, you know, like they sound like Ben, they sound like Mark, but they're just bad. Then I think to me it was like a realization, I was like, oh shit, like we're building off a shitty foundation. Like it's not that the writing is bad, it's just the idea sucks, right? So then- It's like we're, we're cranking out. It's like the seeds were spoiled and then we were like sprouting all these spoiled seeds and we built a great system or you built a great system for like sprouting a bad seed about what we needed. I think the realization you had was spot on, which is like, we need to hang out on the, at the seed stage. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think to me, but it was like an interesting learning. It was like, oh wait, like I haven't been spending, like that to me, that kind of blew my mind and I was like, and then I felt so shitty and stupid for it because I was like, oh man, like my problem is that I kind of have every week I create like a list of six ideas and I spend zero time at the idea level. Like I just like run with the idea and then trying to create the best post possible. It's like the same way of like, if an entrepreneur like decides it's going to go after an opportunity and they execute 10 out of 10, but if the opportunity is like a two out of 10, like you're going to be capped by that. Right. Like there's not, no matter like how, like if you're the best operator in the world or like, you know, you're like Elon level, like you're still going to have like a cap. Right. So that was a realization for me. So then the next evolution, we're like, oh shit, maybe we took this too far. So then what we, the next evolution of the system was actually we have this new or this news or we have this job posting, let's have, yeah, it gave us like five or six ideas why they think it's interesting. And then we get to pick the idea and that actually led to like much better results. Like, you know, because we actually had the ability to curate like the idea, right? To inject some taste into the idea selection. Right. Yeah. But then taking it a level deeper, we still weren't like super excited about that because like there was still something like this system that was telling us, here's what you need to write about. I think, I think we were trying to manufacture reasons to find something interesting. Exactly. Right. Which is really hard to do. It's very hard to fake that something is interesting to you. I actually think that when something's interesting for you, you don't have to manufacture it at all. It grips you. Right. Yeah. But even then, like we saw like, at least I saw it was like, oh, huh, like I'm starting to write like really interesting posts about these companies. It may or may not be the thing that I'm most interested about, but like, I'm like, this is a cool post. Or like, you know, like, like I started to feel like the deeper I went on the, at the, at the seed level, the prouder I felt at the post because like, I was like, okay, like there's, there's something here, right? Like which, which made me realize, hey, like the deeper you can get to the, to the, to the root and in the curation, like assuming you know how to do the other steps, the, just the better it gets. And then, and then I think, so we started doing that then at the same time, I think we were like, hey, if like, if we think that content and driving traffic to our website is the highest priority thing that we should be doing for our business right now, let's, let's walk the walk, right? Like let's use our most productive hours to like sit together and spend like an hour, like, and we thought initially that we were just literally like going to spend an hour together and trying to like write together and get excited about what we write. And that was like, I was just like, we're like, hey, like if we do this, like, and we actually prioritize this number one error, like problem, and we actually like do this, like the score should take care of itself. And I think what's really interesting is that I think our original goal of doing that was like kind of like this shared accountability of for you to write, to post more consistently. And then for me to, to just like be more selective about the ideas, right? And like coming to you, like reconnect with the joy of writing and kind of like find your own, find an angle that feels authentically you, something you get excited about, find your voice. And then for me, I was an accountability mechanism for sitting down to write. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I'll pause there because I think that's so good. I was like, I'm, I kind of want you to keep going because like, yeah, it's a great, it's a great. Yeah. That's exactly the series of steps. And then I think how long have we been doing the morning writing blocks now? Like three weeks? Three weeks. Like three and a half basically at this point. Yeah. And it was interesting. So like the first time that we, that we met, basically the way we used the time was, um, we actually, I think we still had the content, we were picking ideas out of the, the content backlog, right? Yeah. And then we're like, we kind of realized at some point, I think you were like, dude, like I'm not excited about any of this. And I'm like, and then I was like, huh, okay. Like to be fair, like maybe borderline alone, I know it is like, there's no way to make this, this guy happy, man. Like, um, it's like, what does it take to have Ben write a post? Um, anyways, but I was like, okay, like that's interesting. And I was like, so I think we're like, okay, like, so what would you, what would you be excited to write about? Right. And then I think you're like, okay, like here are three things that I've been thinking about and you're like, I'd be like, I think it's interesting that I had a hard time disconnecting because it was like, right after you came from vacation, it was like, it was interesting that I had a hard time disconnecting from vacation. I've also been thinking a lot about rejection and, and then this thing, and then you kind of like, uh, and then you, I think you were also coaching someone from Anthropics or like, oh, I've been thinking about like the culture interview, which is like really interesting. Someone else about team matching. Yeah, exactly. So, like there were things that were actually on my mind, right. And I was like, and none of those things are on this board. Yeah. And I was like, okay, like, and then I was like, huh, these are all interesting. And then I think, I think I told you, hey, like, actually you should just do the vacation ones. This is like recent and it's going to be interesting. And I think it's going to like, it actually like shows people who Ben is and like kind of connects you and you went without it. And I remember like, you know, just cranked it in like 30, like, you know, when we basically took like a 20 or 15 minute writing break, came back, kind of read each other the post that we had out loud and. And then. Yeah. And I, I, to me, that was the first sign that this is a good use of time. Yeah. The fact that I, it got me to do that. Right. Yeah. Very clear output. And I think it got like a lot of great engagement and yeah, impressions were met, but like lots of comments and lots of engagements, which, you know, as we'll talk about is one of my learnings, I guess, from like doing what we're doing is it's almost like the goals have kind of changed a little. It's like, I'm not trying to like impression max. I think consistently getting like whatever, five to 10,000 impressions with my posts, but getting like lots of saves and like comments and I mean, I sound like such a tool talking about this out loud, but like this is work, right? So we're talking about work stuff. It's like when it, this is like a very professional thing to be thinking about is like, I want to measure success for like the thing I'm doing. And I think these posts are like, I used to, it used to be the more impressions, the better. But now that, you know, I'm feeling better about the posts and I'm feeling good about the engagement in the posts, the goal is not to impression max. It's actually the consistency of having the right people see the con I'd much rather have a hundred, a hundred of the right people see my content than have 10,000 of the wrong people see the content. Exactly. And I think the evolution from that point, like the next thing I remember is like we did a post on rejection and then as I remember, I shared my draft with you of the rejection post the next day and you were like, bro, I feel like you're just scratching the surface on this topic. Like this is like a whole converse, this is a conversation. I'm like, I agree. Like I think it's like supposed to be a whole, this, this can be a whole newsletter post. Yeah. I think it was like a, yeah, it was like a, I think it was like a Tuesday or a Wednesday when this happened and, and then I, I remember getting really excited about your post, but being, but then at the same time being like, dude, I think you're trying to cram way too much on a LinkedIn post because like, you know, you're limited with these things. I'm like, oh man, I'm craving not just like what you've learned, but also like the protocol for like how to deal with rejection. And then you're like, wait, actually, why don't we just have an episode on this, the two of us? And we literally just booked it on the spot for that Friday, be like, hey, let's record, let's record this. Yeah. And we had never come up with an idea for an episode in that way before. Like I think the way we come up with episode ideas is over WhatsApp messages or, or we'll have a guest that we're excited about or something like that. But we'd never gone from like, I'm writing about something. This was like the, the novel thing is like, here's a, here's a kernel of a LinkedIn post. It's almost like I'm trying to do too. It's hard to kind of like fit what I have to say about this into a LinkedIn post, but you find it interesting and I'm interested in fleshing it out. And also like if we could do that, I'm pretty, I think I had the idea. Maybe it came, I doubt it came to me after, but I was like, you know, what would be really cool is if I could, if we could talk about it, then we'll have a transcript of us talking about it. And then all of the content in that transcript would by definition be in my own voice. And then I could take that transcript and then I could use AI to help me turn it into a long form Substack post. And and that's exciting for me because like I want to engage with my Substack audience and I have some long form, I like when I write long form, it's enjoyable for me. It's, and I'd love to reconnect with the joy of writing and long form writing is more joyful than LinkedIn writing. So I kind of was like, man, that would be a really big win if we could do that. And then that's exactly what happened. Like we had the conversation, it was an amazing conversation. I took the transcript, I fed AI my original LinkedIn post, which was like a slimmed down version of the idea. Then I gave it the transcript, I enriched it, asked it to be 10 times more specific. And then I just spent a lot of me time just editing and kind of like infusing my own tone into it. And I'm really proud of how that, that post came out. I've gotten like responses from people that follow me being like, I love that post. People appreciating it and stuff like, very proud of how it performed. And I do think it drove traffic for the business too. Oh, for sure. I mean, we have UTM to track that. I think for two days, it was like the biggest source of traffic to our website. So like, so I think it's cool, like to see like, kind of like that secondary order effect of like, hey, like we, like, we didn't really know we were going to end up there, but it kind of just like organically happened. I think there are a few other like interesting things that happened that week too, or might have been the next week. But then, you know, we have the podcast and then, so basically like once a week, we like to promote the podcast, right? And I remember like, you just being like, like, fuck this, man, like, I don't want to like, not like this, but I was just like, I'm just not excited to like, to like write this. Right. Like, like, it just like, feels like a chore. And like, it's almost like we kind of tasted like almost these like beautiful, like paradise of like what it's like to write content that you're actually interested about. And then you go back and be like, you know, you're kind of like forced into writing this thing because you have to, like, so it's like kind of back to the chore. And which was, I think, like an interesting contrast to be like, huh, like, wait, there's, it's almost like once you get used to that way, it's hard to go back, right. But also like recognizing that maybe it's okay to all of a sudden just treat content a little bit differently. But, but yeah, I'm curious like if it felt to you that way too. I want to take a moment before we get back to the episode to tell you about Insider Loops. This is a company that Mark and I started because we just believe this should exist. Companies should be offering candidates the best possible preparation for their loops, yet what they give them is vague and often not very actionable. So we took the matter into our own hands. We've put together well-researched and continuously updated guides for PMs interviewing at companies like Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, Stripe, DoorDash, and more. If you're getting ready for PM interviews at those companies, go over to InsiderLoops.com and learn more. Now back to the episode. Yeah, I mean, we, I remember like after we did the, the rejection episode, I think we had like a couple of writing blocks and we went back and forth and I was like, hey, like what if we actually start the writing blocks by almost like sharing what's on, what's top of mind with each other. And then we almost like workshop the idea for the first half and kind of like, and then spend the second half drafting. And then, you know, inevitably some of, I think it was like last week or this week, I forget which week, like we had a podcast episode, nothing to do with the guests, but I was just like, man, like I feel like I put, I injected all this energy into like the recording the episode and I was like super present for it and loved it. But now I'm here having to write a post about why it's interesting or why it's exciting and I'm having to like remanufacture that excitement and that, and to really find what's interesting now. And I think I may have suggested to you, what if we actually just spent our time talking about what did you actually take away from that conversation? Like now that it's been a week or two weeks or however long it's been, like what stands out? But that was a different episode, right? That was a different one? Yeah. I think that one was like the one we had with Bibi. We actually didn't have a conversation. We just went in and we had to draft it. And then. But the one about Eric, we said there was more to talk about. And we did that like yesterday, right? So like, yeah, that was the one that actually felt much better because we actually like, you interviewed me about what I found interesting and I interviewed you about what I found interesting and then like that, and then we kind of like went a little bit deeper into that. And then I think it was like, almost like we kind of curate it on top of the thing that we already curated. And I think those two posts for both of us did great, right? Yeah. I mean, I was able through dialogue and apparently I think in dialogue, I didn't know this, but like I guess that's how I think. And like through dialogue, we were able to converge on the gem of the idea, which felt timeless. Yeah. Right. And that's what I loved about the gem of the idea. And the idea was this. Eric had a very successful job search, getting three offers in six weeks. That's not the idea. That was his. That's like the hook. That's like the why someone should pay attention. The idea is that he didn't actually run a six week job search. He ran a job search that lasted months and years because he has a very strong strategy for keeping his network warm and having a set of criteria for who he considers worth being in that warm network. So that by the time he was ready to hit the market, there was all this pent up goodwill that he could activate. And that's how he generated an outlier, a fast moving interview process and job search that is an outlier. As someone who spends a lot of time in interview prep for the last couple of years. And so the takeaway from that is applicable to basically everyone. Which is like, if you have a network, if you want to be able to activate your network, you need to keep your network warm. And in order to keep your network warm, here's some things you can do. And then also, if you do those things for months and years and you're ready to activate your network, here's some very practical tips on how to do that. And so it had all these like ingredients. All that's in the episode, but like when I open up my laptop on a Monday and it's been like a week or something since we record that episode, none of that is top of mind for me. My brain is completely thinking it's like a blank slate. Like it got wiped from the weekend. So rediscussing it was so helpful for finding that angle. Then once I had the angle, I'm like, I could write this post all day. Yeah. Right. It's really hard to get with that with AI, right? Like I think with AI, it would have to frame it in a way where you actually are able to see that. But we're only able to see that once we do that ping pong. You say something, they're like, oh, that's interesting. And then you interview me because I, hey, you know, Eric, like, you know, like, and you're like, I remember you like made me read the message that he sent me and be like, oh, that's really interesting. Like, and then we started thinking like, why do you think I got the message and you didn't get the message? Right. It's just like, and it's just like. and you didn't get the message, right? It's just like, and it just like, we went like five or six levels deep, right? And that allowed us to kind of connect the dots backwards. And yeah, another interesting kind of moment for me too, was around, like I remember at one point you, so you had a bunch like, you had all this like high level, I think you got really attuned to like the trailheads that were interesting to you for ideas. So like you knew, hey, I wanna talk about rejection, I wanna talk about my vacation, and I wanna talk about team matching, I wanna talk about the anthropic culture interview. So you're really good at that, but then I think at one point we're having a writing block that you're like, hey, you said, I wanna write about the culture interview on anthropic. And I remember like you sharing a post that was like, man, this is like, it's a good post, but it's not like band level interesting, right? And then we're like trying to be like, huh, like why is that, right? Like, I remember like, to me there was like a really good learning there of like, then we tried to both think like, why is that not good? And then I was like, okay, there's no really like band interpretation here. Like, it's actually like not that interesting that Ben is like repeating exactly like what the interview does, why is it unique? Like me reporting on facts is not that interesting. Right, but then I was like, but then I remember like asking you like, hey, like, why did you actually get interested on this interview in the first place? And then you like had like three bullets. I was like, oh man, like this is interesting, right? Like someone who like has been deep into the space, the fact that you like, it's the first time that I'm hearing you to find a specific interview interesting and very unique to the point that you're like, you know, cannot stop thinking about it. Like the why behind that, I think it's the interesting part. And then I remember like, literally like, we were in a phone call, I was recording that phone call with Granola and kind of like that became the post and it was just like 10 times better, right? So I think like, there's almost like an element, I think for me, the learning was like trusting that like what we find interesting is really where the alpha is. And even if maybe like, we don't think it's gonna be interesting to people. It's totally solving the idea at the top of the funnel problem. It's like, it's the highest quality solution that we could think of, or the highest bandwidth solution for solving the idea selection problem. And what we found, or what I found at least is, like once I love the idea, once the idea feels right and I'm excited about it, then everything downstream from that is actually pretty easy to take care of. 100%. But you're right, narrowing on what's interesting to us. Like you point, you mirroring back to me that you were interested in why I was interested in it was a catalyst for me articulating to myself for the first time, why I'm interested in it. And then once I had that transcribed, taking that and putting it into AI and having it give me like a first version of a post about that, that I could workshop was like, well, this is definitely the right idea. Doesn't sound like me yet, I'll just solve that quickly. Whereas like, I get it to sound like me and the idea sucks. It's like, no matter how many, you can't prompt your way out of the idea sucking. Totally. Yeah, I think that interesting learning, like that's maybe new is like, we just did an episode about like, one of the best things, like how to deal with home, like take home assignments for interview loops. And one of the tips that you shared was like, one of the best things you can do is actually like, have people like that you can riff with and like give you feedback. And I really think that we were thinking about content in the wrong way as like the single player mode, and like sport. And I actually think it's like a team sport, right? Like I do think even if the idea is good, I really believe that just like a couple of back and forth can really just help, especially if you have ideas, right? Like can really help take something to the next level. I think the sooner you can do that, the bigger the impact, right? Because it's like, again, it's like at the idea level, that's like, it's a foundation. So I think that's why the change that you proposed of like the first 30 minutes, we're literally just like catching up and talking to each other what's interesting. Like that actually might be the most valuable thing that we can do with our time, even though it feels like utterly unproductive because we're just like shooting the shit of like, hey, here's the things that we're talking about. Because I think that's the most valuable thing that here's the things that we're talking about. Because that's not leading to any like output versus, you know, like before the first couple of times that we were like, we literally walked out from those blogs with like a post, like published on LinkedIn. And now it's like, we actually walk out with an idea and maybe like a podcast recording slot that we booked into the future. But like, we still have to then, it's like go back and write the post. But I do think that if we're thinking about which I think kind of maybe that's the next lesson that I'm having. It's like, if we think about long-term, like we think about the time horizon, like long-term, this is clearly such a better strategy, but like maybe we went into this block like very much with a short-term mentality of like we need to have a post published by the end of this block, but maybe that was the wrong goal. Yeah, for me, it feels like we evolved from, or at least for me in my head, it went from we have a tactical problem to solve to there's a strategic opportunity here. Yeah, which is a much better framing, by the way. Like, I'm way more excited to be like, dude, like we have a great opportunity ahead of me. It was like, to like, fuck, like we have this problem in front of me that I have to deal with, which is actually like a really interesting framing that you just, but it's totally right. Yeah, and I'll marry that to something that you've kind of repeated a couple of times from our boy, Alex Hermosi, which is, was it like you only have two levers? One lever is the amount of volume of work that you could do or the output, the other lever is the leverage of that work, like picking where you choose to do that. And to me, like our content game is kind of like both. Yeah. Or we can apply both to the content game. I think it's almost like the leverage of your content strategy is directly correlated with like the amount of volume you can get out of it to some degree. And so for me, it's like we kept working, like over the last two weeks, we've almost like kept working our way up the leverage ladder. And I think that's what we're trying to do. I think we're trying to keep up the leverage ladder to the point where I'm like, a conversation like what we're doing right now or what we did this morning is arguably the highest leverage activity because it's helping us figure out what, it's helping us find interesting ideas and flesh out our thinking about them. It's giving us all of the transcript that we could use to like write written posts. It's giving us recorded videos because we're jumping right into Riverside so we could publish episodes and clip episodes. It's also serving a strategic value of literally you and me continuing to like share a headspace and share, like calibrate and build trust and like from a co-founder dynamics perspective, you know, we live in different places so we don't go into an office every day together. So it's like giving us more like office time. Yeah, more FaceTime with each other. And then- Oh, that's an interesting point. I hadn't thought about that. And that creates energy. And then that energy can flow through so that we can, our WhatsApp messages are more continuations of conversations versus the primary source of conversation. And then that writing block in the morning is not something I'm dreading. It's like, oh, I'm going into the office. I'm gonna have some coffee with Mark and see what's on our mind. And I'll just, I'm just trusting, like I've spent enough time with you that I know, like if I'm gonna spend time with you, something interesting is gonna happen. Yeah. So like, that's what I mean by like, we worked our way up the leverage ladder that it feels like it's like the highest leverage thing to do. It's paying dividends in other ways. Like I get more excited about even just like guide updates because we're doing this, you know? Yeah. Man, this is so interesting. Yeah, like I think now we're like in the, like we're fleshing out the lessons and kind of like almost processing what we've been doing. We're metabolizing it. Yeah, I guess we don't need a co-founder therapist. We can self co-founder therapy. Yeah. Sorry, Josh. We still would love to have you back in the podcast if you're listening. But yeah, I think two things that also like kind of resonate and come to mind. I think one is there's something about focus, right? Like the fact that like we have a container where we're gonna talk about content and that's like, we're both like deeply in it. And I do think it has like almost like immeasurable benefits, right? Because like, it's like we're like, now like we're primed to see like examples out in the universe, right? And when we talk to people, when we listen to podcasts, when we have an idea, like it's like, it's almost like we wear these glasses now that have this filter that like, in which we like see the world, which I think is interesting. 100%, 100%. I think the other thing that's interesting that you're totally right about that I didn't really think about is the, our writing blocks have become less deterministic. I think that's a good thing, right? Like I think originally like the intent was like very much like show up for an hour, we'll have two like above average LinkedIn posts. Now it's like, we don't know what is gonna happen, but something good is gonna happen. Because like, that's kind of been the case, right? And the moment that's not true, then like that's a sign for us to be like, hey, like this is not serving our purpose. It's not serving us. So then we kill it, right? Like we kill it. Like the same way we've killed a lot of things that haven't worked. But until it works, like we'll just keep it. And I think it's up to us to. Yeah, to have ownership over how do we keep making that useful. Yeah, I agree. I mean, and you know, kind of looking ahead, it's like coming up on the end of July. I'm gonna be in Europe for all of August. Got some travel coming up in September too. There's a part of me that's kind of like, what's gonna happen without this block? You know, are we gonna lose momentum again? You know, like how do we plan to continue injecting energy into the system? How are we gonna continue reaping all of the benefits? This is, see, like I'm getting ahead of it now, but that's kind of the story in my head is like, we've got momentum going now. How do we keep it? How do we avoid losing it? I don't know what the answer is right now. I mean, but we're gonna experiment and figure it out. Yeah, I suspect we'll find a way. And I mean, the good news is like, the good news is like, man, like in the last three weeks, we've probably recorded like on average three episodes per week, right? And we maybe had one schedule. So like, we were sitting on a lot of content that we're excited about and I think that. I've been wanting to link people to some of the stuff we've already recorded and I can't because it's like not live yet. So like, that's usually a good sign. I'm like, I wish I had the thing to link them to right now. Yeah, but I mean, so I think my guess is it's gonna be like, we've only scratched the surface of like what we can do with the things that we've created. And so I think my guess is like, it's gonna be helpful to be able to take some space from it and like, and almost like up level, like the leverage activities that we're doing in a way. But yeah, what is that next unlock, right? I mean, I don't think, I don't mind sharing this publicly, but I think we would love, I think one of the highest leverage things for us to like really spend more time in our zone of genius and like the stuff that we're like uniquely good at is someone who can help us take all, take this content machine. Like if we keep creating great content, I think it's great content, valuable content, then helping us slice it up, package it and get it in front of the right places. We are like C minus right now, maybe D plus at like doing stuff with our content. This is not a dig on anyone that like any of our guests or any like the person, we have someone awesome named Tareem that helps us, but like none of us are like content cutting and content distribution experts. And we've made it to this point where I think we've kind of like earned the right now to like probably take that piece of what we do more seriously and we have a good business reason for doing it so we could put money into it. And in a world where we had confidence that the quality of output from the time that we spent together is incredible and that it's gonna be in the right places like the right keywords and the right thumbnails and like all the things that go into like having a well thought out content strategy or at least content distribution strategy, something tells me we'll be even more excited to spend the time making the content because like there's more trust that like the downstream stuff will happen really well. And it's happening right now better than it's ever happened for us. And I think this is as bad as it's ever gonna be. Yeah. I'm back to, right, it all goes back to like topic selection, right? Like I think we've kind of zeroed in in a topic that I think we're both excited about that's unique that we think we have the ability to build a differentiated asset that very few people can create, right? And I think, so yeah, just, I think it's funny, like over a long period of time, I always thought like there's this debate, right? In entrepreneurship, that's like, what's more important, the idea or execution, right? And for the longest time, I was like in the camp of like execution. And I think that is true, but it's only true if you're in the beginning of the journey and what I mean by that, if you haven't taken the plunge into entrepreneurship and you're just like kind of like in decision paralysis or like, I don't know what to do. I actually think like, and again, it goes back to an earlier point that you made, right? About momentum. But I think, once you get execution in motion and then I think there's maybe the reason why execution is more important because then it's like, there's the almost implication that you will pivot until you find an idea that's like actually worth sticking with that will kind of like have its own gravity and time and everything. So yeah, I'm back into, it's all about ideas. I mean, of course you have to execute, but I think maybe this is a point that we've proven that we can execute already. So- But I think the point you made earlier is the right point about this, which is like, if the idea has a ceiling potential of two out of 10 or whatever, then a 10 out of 10 execution is still gonna result in two out of 10 impact or outcomes. So it's like the idea needs to be right enough that there's a high ceiling on, yeah, if we execute flawlessly against this idea, there's gonna be a great, like still a great outcome. I think our idea with the business right now is a great idea. I think that there's a lot of sub ideas built in to how we run the business, like how we update guides is an idea, right? Like it's sure it's a system, but it's also like the system is a representation of the idea about how we update guides. I think that idea is good too. Like the idea has a very high ceiling. So I think, and then the podcast is an idea, but it also has a very high ceiling, especially one thing we haven't talked about is we've decided to like spend more of the podcast focused on job interviews, career, hiring, things that we don't have to manufacture. You actually were a little worried that that would not be a rich enough kind of like content area for you to stay excited about. And then I think as we started to do some of these episodes, I think you've changed how you feel, like that's actually something we didn't talk about, but I think it was a pretty big evolution because I wasn't gonna like try to, I had pitched you once or twice that we should shift in this direction, but I didn't push too hard because I was like, man, I don't want Mark to like lose excitement about the podcast. But then we started to do some of these episodes and I think you kind of got conviction that like that idea is a good idea too. Like it increases almost like the ceiling on what the podcast can do for us. Yeah. So I think execution's everything. And then I think we need to keep making sure we feel good about the ideas we're executing against. And then the soft thing to monitor along the way is just like how we feel. And if we find that we're losing excitement ever, like is it because we don't like the execution? Is it because the idea is not interesting? Is like what, just debugging that together. But I think it's really important to be able to say, dude, I'm not having fun right now, right? Like I actually, like if you told me that, I'd be like, I want to unpack it. Cause I do want you to be having fun doing this. Like, I know you enough that I know you, if this is going well and we're doing what we need to do, I think you'll be having fun. Exactly. And I feel the same way about me, so. Yeah. Maybe let's finish it that way. Like kind of like, you know, like what would we tell ourselves? Let's say we hit like, for a different reason, like we hit a rough patch, right? Where things are maybe not going the way we want it to go. Like what would be the protocol that we would tell ourselves based on kind of what we just went through and what we learned? Oh, that's a good question. So, what I'm hearing is almost like how would I, how would I try to like debug not having fun or how would I try to navigate that or bring it up with you or broach the topic? Yeah, like how do we like, you know, like I think one of us is like, okay, we. Well, first of all, in this case, we were both not having fun. So I think it was kind of important. It's important to, if it's just one of us not having fun, it's probably different than both of us not having fun. But it's kind of contagious. Like I think it's. It is. So I think it doesn't, like I think it's either one of us or both of us. Like I think if one of us is not having fun, eventually both of us are not gonna have fun. Like it's just like a matter of time like that I like get you infested with the not fun part. One thing I think is pretty solid ground to stand on and thinking about this is like, I do think growth solves a lot of problems. And so it's kind of hard to not have fun if like everything is up into the right every month. And I think you and I would be feeling, forget about the financial, the financial tailwinds, I guess. But we would just be feeling like when things are going up into the right, you feel like more options are opening. You could spend more money on growth. You could solve problems you're less excited about. And then when things are going down, you kind of feel like there's more of a scarcity mindset that kicks in for me at least. And it feels like, ah, like the wave is behind us and we're not relevant. And you know, it's like a lot of these ups and downs of entrepreneurship. And so the cool thing about having a co-founder who is very emotionally mature like you, more than me, is like, I think I can count on you to like objectively look at what's happening and not, like you're good at grounding yourself. Like I might come in worried about something and you're good at kind of grounding me because you're good at grounding yourself. But in the chance that I'm like not pumped about something, you can also redirect my energy towards like what the productive thing that's actually going on is, and we can figure it out together. So I just trust that you won't be like scared off by me not having fun or something. But yeah, I do think like, it's probably gonna be some concept of like the business is not growing as fast. concept of like the business is not growing as fast as we want or there's like a business problem of some kind which is making things feel less fun for me because I hate losing. I hate not living up to my potential and then we figure out what assumptions have we been making or where are things exactly not going the way we would expect them to go given the inputs. And I think for me the first step is like one of us like naming the feeling right of like because like I think you need to be the hey like I'm not having fun and I'm worried about X right like I think that's like almost like the trigger of like okay cool like because I think like the failure state that I would be more worried about is like one of us is feeling this way right and then it doesn't say anything to the other person but like every interaction or that we have is like kind of almost like infected by that like feeling or emotion right and like and and then we get on short with each other it's like oh man this is annoying this is not working like why are we spending time here or maybe like why is Mark spending more time in this or why is Ben spending time in this or like why is he doing more coaching like you know like you can get it like so I think being able to have a conversation and like just saying that hey this is a problem and I'm not happy with this it feels like a such like it's almost like super important thing right and I think yes it's hard it's like yeah go no no go ahead no I was just saying it's hard right because like neither of us want to be like this person that's like super like you know unregulated of like being like you know that's like complaining or like like you know like or like you know like or almost like you know putting too much burden on the other person because like you know you were trying to control our own mental game right but and I do think that yeah sorry yeah sorry man I keep interrupting you no no you're getting you're getting me excited it's a plus one some stuff but yeah go ahead yeah but I think but I think and it's true sometimes it can be like a lot to like take someone else's burden or it's like insecurities or concerns or like just like but at the same time I think it's much worse to like let them cook in silence and then like be on the receiving end and be like wait what the hell is going on like why am I getting a different mark that I was getting two weeks ago right and you're not able to have a conversation because then maybe like what are the chances that one of us also started to feel the same way right and so anyways that that's sorry that was a long way totally well look like what's the point of being your own boss I mean to the degree that we are each our own boss I mean we're partners but I still consider each of us our own boss like exactly what's the point of being your own boss if you can't you can't view your company as a vehicle for creative expression or you can't say how you're feeling that day like you know it's one thing to not be able to say how you're feeling that day at work if you have if you have a job or whatever if you're literally running your own company with someone you trust and you can't say how you're feeling or not having fun like what's the fucking point so that's the first thing I'll say is like I do think of work as a vehicle for creative expression and if I've lost touch with the spark like the thing that's making it fun and inspiring for me to do it I mean to inspire is like breathe air into it right like that's what it means I think etymologically so it's like if I'm not inspired I can't put energy into it so I need to to get I need to maintain that and if I lose touch with it I know that impacts you too so like I need to let you know and then it's honestly both of our problems right it's like and I think you take that as as an opportunity not as a burden and that's that's the first thing I'd say the second thing I'd say is like I just want to say thank you because really to give you a shout out that throughout that period where you were like posting six days a week and I was for like two years or whatever two or three years and I was more like when I'm feeling like it kind of and I still am kind of but I want to say at no point have you ever like called me out on it or made me feel guilty about it or shamed me about it or like you're not carrying your weight you never like pointed a blaming finger at me for for that you're never like look I'm out I'm here doing my thing and you're not carrying your weight you know like we we just don't have that kind of like blaming relationship and so by the time like we had that conversation about how I'm not showing up consistently like I came from a place of pure like hey I'm just like I'm owning this like I'm self-diagnosing right now like and I think we're both good at actually kind of like criticizing ourselves and like sharing with the other person what we think we need to be doing better and I think that is one of the ingredients for like why the relationship is so productive is because it never has the potential to deteriorate into like resentment or you know something like that kind of thing where you feel like you're carrying more weight than the other person yeah so thank you for that yeah right right back at you man yeah like I think like even when we disagree on something like like I feel like you push and like just trying to understand what I'm coming from and a lot of times like like it doesn't feel antagonistic it just feels like hey like I'm really just trying to understand your point so like if I'm missing something and then sometimes either I communicated poorly I didn't make a point consistently or like maybe there's holes in my thinking right but I think either way like I think giving that benefit giving me that benefit of the doubt has been like super valuable and and yeah and I think for me like I feel comfortable like either bringing a problem or you I feel comfortable you telling me like hey man like I'm not having fun because I think I'm confident that we can kind of like navigate the problem right and like eventually like work it out in a productive way to the point that we're not going to be like you know having a philosophical debate for two weeks about like what is fun right like we'll be like cool like let's get it all out of there right and then oh my god can you imagine if we spent two weeks debating what fun is oh my god like we would be seeing the same spot yeah right and I would hate I would start to like question like I was like what the fuck am I doing with my life like but yeah I agree with you like we don't have to yeah we get to productive space very fast I'd say is like the the theme here I think we're very good at getting there yeah all right so on that note um back to the protocol back to the protocol it's like so you said you like the protocols um oh because I'm like you know like if we go name the thing I think it's step one yeah name the thing uh I think step two maybe check in with the other person and ask if they're feeling the same way or yeah like am I the only one feeling this or are you feeling it too step three figure out kind of like whether there's just one thing or like if I'm feeling not having fun for one reason but you're not having fun for another reason like yeah you know we could list that's almost like document or like capture and make sure the each person's hearing what is not fun for the other person and then try to get to maybe like get in touch with reality maybe yeah like I think that's one thing of like like what's actually okay like we're not having fun this is not working what's actually like let's let's get to the ground truth almost and I think we did that like I remember like I spent a lot of time like looking at post-hoc and like looking at data and like see how that changed right I'm like I'm like sharing that with you and you poking holes like actually I know that's true I know that's true and like eventually like getting to a place where like okay like I think we both can get behind this version of reality right and and then I think once we know okay we agree that this is the problem like we got to root point and I think that made it way easier because cool like okay now like well no way easier we still need to solve the fucking problem but we know where to direct the energy to right yes yes yeah definitely that and then I think the once we have a hypothesis for where to direct the energy scoping something as a next step whether it's a conversation whether it's a task whether something that allows us to know we're making progress against it has worked really well for us like even put together a plan for whatever right yeah sometimes we leave conversations that like one of us will take the ball and like I'll put together a plan for this share it with you it just feels like we're starting to make progress against it and having a better and better conversation every time yeah I think the focus too like we didn't really try to do like a thousand things at once or like hey like let's let's go all in on content and I actually think like putting it for me I mean at least for me was a big step of like like I look at my morning time as like the most productive asset that I have period and and like putting that in the calendar for me was like a big step like okay like this this is like you know a big deal and I you know I think also gave me agency of like let's make sure we're making the most out of that time yeah no I've I know that about you and I'm the same I'm the same way and um and I told you also like the moment like every week we should be asking ourselves like do we kill this next week or do we keep it going so it's like we can kill and obviously with August coming up we'll have that decision made for us but um yeah I would say everything I don't know I don't think I have anything to add I think it's I I think the results have been there's attribution something we're going to get better at over time like knowing how our different inputs and different activities translate to different outcomes and business activity or whatever but overall the scoreboard is looking better I think we're having our one of our best weeks we've had in months right now um and so let's keep it going let's uh I think we're in the right space I think we're we're like the right people like I can't think of anyone better positioned than the two of us to like build what we're building and um I think it's really hard to beat someone who's having fun so as long as you keep having fun and um and find the right ways to get in front of our audience in a way that they find useful and valuable and hopefully earn the right to have them as a customer um buying something from us and then deliver on hopefully what's what's a great customer experience and a great product that feels like it's going to set us up to be doing this for a long time and uh I don't think I I can ask for a lot more so let's keep it going I'm in I'm super super quick right to the corner appreciate you man and yeah appreciate you too dude yeah I mean honestly I had the last two weeks have been so fun and I feel like I'm just getting more and more excited about the future and it's not I'm just getting more excited about like next week or next month I'm like okay like if all the pieces start to come together I think we'll be in a really good place in a couple of years right so um yeah I'm realizing like yeah no finish your thought that's that's it I was gonna say I'm realizing like one thing we didn't talk about is obviously like I tore my ACL in the midst of all this and like I've been definitely wondering how much of that like that was fucking with a lot of things for me and yeah you know you like that was fucking that was messing up with my output it was obviously messing with my sleep it was messing with my schedule it was messing with my sense of independence and agency it was messing with my home life still is but like less so right now as I'm getting better and so you know I gotta say too like one of my learnings was also like there's sometimes me not having fun and me not being able to like like there was there was a definitely like a lot going on outside of work too that was something that you could not influence and I also want to say thank you because you were very supportive of like every step of so far this like recovery process for me and then also like celebrating wins with me along the way like you know like when I can go for a walk without the crutches and stuff like you know just felt like you're really rooting for me to get back to good health and that was happening in parallel with all the stuff we're talking with about like the work stuff too and so also if we not if but when we run into headwinds again or run into the next time where things are maybe less fun also kind of good moment to reflect on what's happening reflect on what's happening personally and that could be that could be part of or at least one of the ingredients and in the storm yeah and something that maybe not is something that one of us can't actually help with but it's something to get to share with each other I mean it's I would bet it's not a coincidence that we're also like you know this I mean while all this is happening there was also like a big personal change in my life got out of like a relationship too so like it's interesting like how all these things kind of come together in a way in a perfect storm and sometimes but I think and it may or may not be a coincidence but I just think like yeah I think the fact that we both were there for those difficult moments and changes and like we were aware of it and I think you know like depending on how we showed up could have make things worse and or you know like than we were and I think and I just also felt very supported throughout this the whole period too so and yeah like I think and again I think we we're building a business that allows us to live the life that we want to be with and I think the point of doing all that we do is like so we can do that with the people that we want and I think now when you face adversity in your personal life you realize like you know how why those things matter because you actually like are able to kind of like work become something that like supports you outside of you know in those personal moments as opposed to like this extra source of stress that and that you have to deal with so right back at you for me. Amen amen yeah this has been a really nice thing for me to do in parallel with all the physical therapy and rehab and stuff is like looking forward to work looking forward to what we do together so all right brother that's a wrap I'll let you go that's a wrap bye-bye everyone bye-bye