#123: How a PM recruiter reads your LinkedIn profile | Chris Lee (Founder @ Product Scout, ex- Brex, Dropbox)

All right, we are live kicking off with smiles and laughter So pumped to have you on Chris Lee Thanks for having me excited to be here. Welcome. Welcome, man you know, we've We've been talking about having you on the podcast for months at this point and I think the the spark for that Was a session that you did within Supra. I don't know how long ago now, maybe three four months Maybe it was six months six months six months. Okay, and You know without getting into the specifics the basic structure that set that session that which was so Interesting for me as someone who's been coaching people through interviews I'd never seen a session like that and never even thought about hosting one So I'm happy that mark and you had the idea to do it But you you had a few of the folks within the super community who are actively looking for a new role Volunteer to share their LinkedIn profiles, you know all off the record internally and then, you know, you kind of asked them some questions about what they're looking for and Then you evaluated their LinkedIn profiles through that lens of someone who's maybe Recruiting because that's how you spend a lot of your time these days with product scout with your company as you're helping Venture-backed companies find their first p.m. Or early product hires heads of product those kind of roles and I just learned so much from you watching that in it and So that was one reason we're really excited to have you on just like to be able to better get into your head on on how companies and how you think about looking at people's LinkedIn profiles and Then the second thing is I because I've been doing a lot of interview coaching and just like job search coaching with people I have some recent kind of like stories which won't get into specifics I'll protect people's confidentiality but kind of looking to sharpen a little bit of how I think about coaching people on their LinkedIn profiles Given sometimes you kind of have to make do some squinting to see the story of how they go from where they've been Or how they go from from how they look on paper to like a new role so anyways, all that's context where I'm excited chat with you and where I want to kick it off is What the first question I remember what stuck out to me from that internal session you did which I want to understand from you better Is like the first question you asked every person Who was showing their LinkedIn in that internal session was Kind of like what lens should I be looking at your LinkedIn profile through? and You you basically could not give constructive feedback I'm not saying you couldn't but you kind of refused to give constructive feedback until you understood what lens you're evaluating the profile through So I'd love to start there. Why why is that such an important like place to start for you? I think it comes down to What I like to call candidate market fit which you know our audience here is PMS Everyone knows what product market fit is about and I think that same concept applies to when your job searching You want to met you want to really make sure there's a match between the candidate and the role that's trying to be filled Just like with products if you try to build a product that's gonna appeal to everyone. You're really gonna fail Same thing is with recruiting if you're trying to craft your story or profile or Narrative to have the widest appeal. It's really not going to resonate with anyone very very strongly So in order to really give You know quality feedback. You've got to know what they're looking for. What's their ideal role? What's their dream job and Then figure out okay Well, what would actually be a good fit for that particular role and start to shape there that person's narrative that person's LinkedIn To be a good match for it So I think that's why You you really need to know what their intention is And it's I think like once I always tell people once a PM always a PM So I'm always applying the same product management Principles that I learned as a product leader to recruiting and I think that's some of the best the most helpful advice I try to give to people that are searching for a job It's like treat your job search like you're building a product where you are the product as well And then once you have that mind shift, I think it kind of opens your eyes to like, oh, yeah I should do more, you know customer research and figure out, you know, how How those companies that I'm trying to recruit at are thinking about what's the ideal role? What's What's a good fit? What's not a good fit? Where is their candidate market fit essentially? Can you? Super helpful to kind of frame it this way maybe like help like one thing that I struggle sometimes with like these concepts is like One is like what are different dimensions to think about when you're like positioning yourself because like and there you know, there's like industry right and there's like company size or stage and there's like seniority, right and then there's also like and Management versus I see right like I think I'm kind of separating seniority. Please. Let's match me with I see and There's like almost like a location location, that's another one right then there's also like and almost like domain X like not not domain expertise, but like almost like the what is like your core capability within like Products like are you like a security person? Are you a platform person? Are you do you have experience? Yeah, are you a general generalist? So like It's almost I guess that's the first question like first question like how much Like do you need to be specific in all those dimensions also are there dimensions that I've haven't mentioned that are important and I think then the next question is like oh shit, like My fear would be like am I closing too many doors? So like I just I just threw a lot at you but like just react Sure So the first part of your question I was nodding along because I was like, oh, yeah, he's he's kind of nailing it Oftentimes what I'll do is I'll chat with Candidates or Pete product leaders that reach out to me that want to get a sense of the market how to position themselves So I do a lot of those types of conversations and the first things that I always ask them are pretty much exactly which you Just listed, you know for your next role When you imagine if you were to wave a magic wand and create your perfect next role You know, what company stage do you want to go to are you looking to go Super early stage like seed series a B or C growth like big tech That's probably where I start Primarily because I focus on early stage companies. So I have the most insight there. So that's one one piece and Then I also ask about What what level are they looking for and that's more that's particularly relevant if you're talking to a really senior candidate that has some management Expertise, are they looking to stay in management? Are they looking to be a player coach? Are they looking to move into a super I see role? Which is much more common these days Knowing that is incredibly helpful for figuring out like, okay. Well, what type of What type of companies would be interested in them would be a good fit where would they actually be good candidate market fit and Then are they actually qualified for that? Do they have that type of expertise? The other piece you mentioned absolutely, you know the domain fit or You know what? Yeah, what is your domain expertise? Are you a cyber security person and you want to stay in security or you know a little bit more broadly? Have you just been working in dev tools? If you've spent most of your career in dev tools, probably not going to be a great fit for consumer products If all you've done is b2b sass Probably not gonna be able to place you at like an AI infrastart up So knowing where that where your superpowers are is is super helpful as well Location is important But that's like pretty easy to glean from looking at a profile Most people are comfortable with hybrid these days. So I don't really think about, you know, return to office too much. But Yeah, I'd say the three But but but they would need to be willing to relocate for a hybrid if they don't live in in that city is that? Yes, no technically true, but I try to stay very far away from anything involving relocation because that's a whole can of worms where there's so many other factors outside of You know, are you a good fit for the role? Do you have the right domain expertise that start to come into play family and other dimensions? So I've seen what many searches get derailed because of that. So what you mean by you like to stay away from it is like when you're when you're sourcing candidates if you see a candidate is based in I don't know, Florida and you're sourcing for a role in San Francisco. That's a hybrid role Are you saying you you will basically not even kind of initiate the the outreach to that candidate? They're completely off the table Even if they said that they're open to relocation They may say that at first but I've experienced this enough and heard from other recruiters enough that you get further along You know the rubber meets the road and they need to really start envisioning themselves moving across the country or even to the neighboring states and like uprooting their family and Then suddenly they start thinking oh, well that might be a little harder than I expected maybe do a trial period and Searches are hard enough. Like once you add that other dimension, which is very easy to filter out It's it's just not worth it Is the main exception to that rule if there is one? kind of like people willing like people relocating for almost like life-changing opportunities, like if someone is you know, I Don't know let's say their dream job is To work at Anthropic and they somehow get a job at Anthropic that requires moving to San Francisco Like do you think in those scenarios? like Less of a chance that it doesn't work or do you even you think that's I would say so if they can really show that Conviction that like this is the absolute job for me But You don't hear that too often Yeah, the reason I'm just hanging out on this and I want to keep keep the conversation moving is because one of my hopes is to be able to share this episode with people who want advice about how to better position themselves for for roles and reading between the lines like should I walk away from what you're saying in this part of the conversation with if I live if I want to work in the Bay Area or in San Francisco, I Should basically have San Francisco as like my my location on my LinkedIn to make myself like legible and discoverable by people that are looking for Bay Area people Otherwise, I basically did not discoverable by them If the role requires in person then yeah Okay, if the role requires any sort of in-person elements I'm not gonna look outside the Bay Area because I just there's enough people there I'd rather focus on that if that gets exhausted which in the Bay Area that's not gonna happen anytime soon Then I might start branching out but Otherwise if you want to be in the Bay if you want to work for a Bay Area company that requires an office and you're not in the Bay Area Set your location or like just move there. Otherwise, yeah, you're gonna get filtered out What are your thoughts? I mean Part of me like what when you hear like, oh just change your location to SF and Is that is that like borderline unethical you think or is that like? Like what do you think of like the ethics there? I guess they like and I wouldn't do that unless you were actually planning to move there. You're just accelerating the timing that then I think fine just Adjust things accordingly. Yeah, but if you have no intention of moving there then It's gonna come up that yeah We're not living there. And then then people are gonna be like, why did you say that? That's what else are you, you know, not truthful about. Yeah, but so it sounds like basically It's a I'm one of those people that like I'm living in Milwaukee And it's around the part of Milwaukee and I'm like, okay, like I want to move to SF but of course, I'm not gonna move to SF and they'll have an opportunity and I change my role like my location to San Francisco And then like be like, oh cool. Like we're in the city. Do you live? It's like, oh actually I'm not in the city anymore I'm actually in Milwaukee. Like oh, why do you say you're in SF? It's like and well, actually like I'm just kind of manifesting that I want to move there and I'm not sure. I don't have any concrete plans You don't know if I would use that term, but I would say like I'm planning to like right now It's July, right? So I'd be like, you know, we basically are in the process of finalizing our move in the fall So I'm just kind of getting a bit ahead of it is how I would describe it But like, you know, everything's already closed and like we already know what neighborhoods we're looking at You can even parlay that into like I've told I'm told like Hayes Valley is kind of cool but maybe like a little too close to Market Street, but like I you know, like Fill more areas really, you know, you just start to parlay it into a conversation about like what neighborhood what part of the city? Do you live in because I'm still I'm like shopping right now. No, what do you that feels that feels natural that feels Something I'd be very comfortable with and as a recruiter if I heard that I'm like, okay. No, I get it He's already moving. The wheels are in motion This is gonna happen versus if I hear Yeah, I want to move there, but I'm waiting for a job first then I'm like, well She can do my friend have a chicken and egg problem. Yeah. Yes. Yes, indeed I think you're stretching it a little bit and what else are you stretching? Yeah, I mean the best advice I remember that I got when I when I got my first job in San Francisco because I had Kind of like had a tech investment banking job in San Francisco and I went back to Florida to found a company and then that didn't work out and I was like doing a job search from Florida and the advice that I got was like if you want to work in San Francisco go live in San Francisco and Like basically grind and hit the pavement and do what you like You'll find work and if you just move there first So I I still think that's probably the right advice Although now at this stage of life with kids and stuff, it's people had need to be probably a little bit more Intentional but I but I do think it is someone is committed to working in the Bay Area. They should move. I Absolutely agree because as much as I believe in what I do What I always tell the startups that I work that I'm working with is You know, the best people are gonna come from your network. It's gonna be those direct referrals the people that you meet in person So tap that first and that's only gonna happen with folks that are you know Proximity to you that you're meeting with if you're getting coffee with that you hear opportunities through So yeah, if you're trying to do that search if you're really serious about working in the Bay Area move to the Bay Area get an Airbnb, you know commit to six months there and you'll build an incredible network have a phenomenal time get a sense of what it truly means to live and work there and You'll you'll probably be Setting yourself up much much better for actually finding that role. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in markup Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I want to get to the second part of my super long-winded answer, which is like around like the Getting too specific about like what you're looking for and that potentially closing doors Oh, yeah yeah, and the second way that I want to do there is like I think the other exception to relocation that I've seen is if the Market for the person that you're looking for is super tiny Maybe there's like only 15 or 20 people that can do that job Then at that point you're way more likely to make exceptions to move you know heaven and earth to like make sure that person joins your company and which Which makes being like, you know like the people actually that are getting like right that have the easiest time recruiting is because when they're doing something very specific that there's only a very few amount of people that do it and have that level of mastery that they've been doing it for like 15 years and At the same time it does feel really scary to like pigeonhole yourself into like a very specific thing so like I'm curious like when you're Advising people like hey, how do how should I tell my story and how how like prescriptive should I be at what I'm looking like? How do you recommend about like keeping some doors open or just like being super specific? Like how do you think about that? Yes, so the advice that I usually give people because like that question comes up often is think of it as like multiple shots on goal Figure out what is your ideal dream job? Position your profile for that and then that's your first shot on goal. See how well that's working test iterates and Again, use that product mindset iterate on that and then Evaluate is this working or not at some point if you conclude it's not working pivot Adjust your profile readjust it to you know, what your new target is and like go all-in on that Versus like we were saying earlier you spread your profile Peter peanut butter thin was a popular term I was using products and like You try to appeal to both at the same time It's gonna just kind of be lukewarm to each hiring manager recruiters looking at is gonna be like, yeah, that's a good fit But like this other profile here is a great fit. I'm gonna focus on that one Again I think just optimizing for candidate market fit is gonna be the best And you literally mean like just focusing on one company. Okay, I want to work at this company I wouldn't say one particular company. I think you can generalize that to a type of company You know if you were to pick a company in DevTools, for example, if there's one DevTools company you're super excited about Well, there's probably other DevTools companies that could be a good fit as well. So Have some flexibility there You don't know if you're narrowing If you're narrowing process means that there's literally only like three companies in the world or three jobs in the world that fit your criteria You know to Chris's point maybe you know, you could timebox it your first, you know series of at-bats and basically to say I'm determined to position myself for just those three jobs and then If those don't work, then you're you know, you start the next series of tests, but but but generally Generally speaking You probably want There to be at least like five to ten Companies on that list that you end up with I think in that first batch is kind of what I tell people Keeping in mind I also tell people to generally not interview with more than like three companies in parallel like as active interview processes like I think it's important to stay focused on like Some people like are like I'm gonna talk I'm gonna review like ten companies in parallel and it's like that's I Just don't I don't often see that work. Like I think it spreads people too thin So so having focus helps you not just in the initial getting in the door phase but I think it also kind of gives you focus during the interview process because You'll need a coherent story for like why are you talking to these companies right now? Because if it's like I'm talking to like a consumer company in the Bay Area I'm talking to like a b2b company. That's like Like a series a b2b company that's remote that consumer companies. Maybe a series d company then like the third opportunity is You know like a whatever level 5 p.m. At you know, Google in New York it's kind of like Those are three completely that's like a very mixed bag of opportunities And it's hard to maintain a story of like you you might start to get confused about what you want in that process I think that's a really good point because one of the questions that I always ask as a recruiter is candidates get you know Further along the process. I'm always checking in and like Where are you with talking to other companies? The best people are always in multiple conversations. So I'm asking like How far along are those what's our timeline look like and then as we really get close to the offer stage? I start digging into like, okay. Well, what are those other companies doing? What stage are they at? how excited are you about those companies versus this this company and If what they start telling me is like, you know, the role we're talking about here is a you know series a 30 person startup, but they're also interviewing for Google then in my mind. I'm like, okay. Well That's not a very clear narrative. Like what is what is their heart really want? What are they truly a good fit for? So that's that's gonna be a knock against them versus if they're just interviewing at the same type of company in the same industry Other series a I'm like, okay that all makes sense this this all this all clicks So just to be really clear I'm not I'm not like hating I'm not hating on people or judging people that are in that situation as someone who myself you know when I landed at Facebook I had been interviewing with like a Combination of series a B C because most of my experience at that point was as like early stage founder But I just know so that was like where I had a better fit And it's working in series a B and C was where my experience was So I kind of had a good fit for early stage startups, but then I also had never worked in big tech so there was a part of me was trying to kind of like see what big tech was like as part of that process which Is why I personally was, you know interviewing with both but to your point the trade-off I was making is that I knew that if I was trying to explain to a company what I was doing I needed to make I needed to maintain a very clear narrative for like the big tech people that I was only interviewing with big tech companies and then for the Startup people I was interviewing with I was only interviewing the startup people I was interviewing with, I was only interviewing with startups. So you need to, you need to make sure that that story at least comes through clearly. That sounds exhausting. Just like the context switching of like keeping these stories is like, it's like dating like multiple people at the same time. Like it's just like, just it's like, I don't know how people do it. It's hard. It's hard. But I think another important thing that I, you've mentioned in other conversation, Chris is like, of course, like I think you're looking for information of like how much alignment and focus there is. But I think also like that focus also implicitly shows up in the conversations, right? Like, I think like when you have someone who is very focused, has a very clear picture, the way they tell stories, the way they kind of share their career arc, you can just like, it just makes the company feel like this is the unicorn that we're looking for. Because there's just like so much intentionality and everything that ties back to like the space or the company or the stage of growth that they've seen before. So like, I think it's also, and I think I'm bad if someone is, you had the first meeting with that person, Chris, and someone tells you that and you feel that way, you're like, oh shit, like this is my winning horse. So I'm going to like, you're probably incentivized to even help them farther. So I think there's like all these like side effects of being more focused that I think they often don't get discussed, but they're definitely there. That narrative is so important. And it's not even that first conversation. It's honestly usually like the first two minutes. Because in those first two minutes, that's when you're doing those initial intros. And the candidates, the people that just sort of give you their entire chronological life story without any like theme tying all together, without any clarity on like, you know, what are they most passionate about? What do they really want to do next? What's their ideal next role? The work is on you as a recruiter or hiring manager to then like look at their profile, piece it all together and figure out, okay, why did they make this decision? Is there relevant experience there or not? When you're doing six calls a day back to back, you don't want to introduce any more friction into the process versus the best candidates, the ones that really stand out. And they're so unfortunately few and far between, have spent time up front to like craft that narrative about themselves and what they're looking for and then really tailored to the role and like that's totally shines in their pitch. You hear in their pitch, their introduction, like, you know, what did they do in their past that's relevant? Why is this role such a good fit for them? What is their superpower? And why is that superpower exactly what I as a recruiter I'm looking for? When you hear that, you just light up and you're absolutely right. I'm rooting for them. Because when I hear that, I'm like, oh, this is the one. I want to fill this role. This person could really be it. They're so much better than everyone else I've talked to today. And it kind of, that happens at the beginning and it kind of colors the rest of the conversation. You're going to give them a little bit more benefit of the doubt because like everything just started off so, so strong. So yeah, that upfront work, it pays off. Yeah. First impressions mutter, mutter a lot, so, so much. It's more than just vibes. I'm kind of hearing you, you're basically just looking for like, can I even understand this person's story, right? By the way, I know at some point we said if we felt like screen sharing would be helpful, we would do it. But, and I don't think we want to like show people who didn't give us permissions profiles. So Mark and I kind of said we would volunteer our profiles. But if it would be helpful, again, I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone to try to make this conversation as useful and actionable as possible for them. If I were to like flash my LinkedIn or Mark flashed his LinkedIn, I mean, I have a bunch of, you know, transitions that I've done that don't necessarily have a cohesive story. But when I tell the story, you know, I think I generally can like help make sense of it. But I'm probably on the extreme end of the spectrum of people that have kind of like moved around and still have some hopefully coherent story for it. Would that be helpful at some point to kind of see how you as a recruiter looking at a LinkedIn like mine, kind of like what's the story you tell yourself about these transitions and like how confusing it is or? Yeah. What I was thinking, Ben, is because I think we just got into like a lot of like the importance of like telling this story. And I think actually, well, and the importance of first impressions, we're talking about the first impression when you meet face to face. But I think I would say there's almost like a first first impression, which is actually like getting in Chris's radar. So I think what would be most helpful, maybe it's like. I think Chris always kind of shows up with a role in mind, right, like he's like, I'm a man with a mission. I need to find this person like I need to find the right person for this company. So I would say let's maybe let's like let's start with a role. I think we kind of have like a couple in mind and then either we can go through both of our profiles and kind of like Chris can roast us. I mean, again, don't hold back, but I think that could be helpful to just like be like looking at it from. And I think even before. That would be so interesting. Yeah, because we do have different we have different backgrounds. I think there's parts of your profile I like a lot more for the role that we're going to talk about than mine. But there's probably parts of my profile that I like better for it. So it's like how Chris would think about it. And I think even before jumping into our profiles, like what what actually was really helpful for me last time in the private session that we did is like seeing how Chris like goes into the searches. Like what are the filters that he uses? Like what is like setting before we jump into our profiles, let's do that. And then after that, we're going to kind of like fast forward, cheat and let's assume that we showed up in the search and then we can do the profile by profile roast. What do you think, Chris? Yeah, it sounds like fun. Let's do it. OK, you want to screen share? Chris screen share first. Yeah, cool. We can actually we can stay on Chris's because he can see our profiles from this page. So, Chris, do you have that URL that we sent you? We're going to be looking at the head of product role at Pathos, which is a. I guess like a drug discovery or drug development company. Yeah, and just maybe to give some context, like this is a pretty, I would say like elite company, like not well known yet. But this is founded by a super successful, like multiple exited entrepreneur. And Eric, I forgot his last name, but he started Groupon, a multi-billion dollar company. Then he started Tempus AI, also a multi-billion dollar company and went public. And a couple, I think last year, actually a friend of the podcast, Chase, worked for there, was a VP there. And so just really, really talented people. And then actually, I know the person right now who is the CEO of this company. He also was an executive at Tempus and they're looking for their first head of product. They're basically trying to build an AI native pharma company. Super interesting. And I think. Really exciting role and I'll pause there. Cool, so I've got the roll up, maybe just some context about how I work. You know, you said earlier, I'm a man with a mission, and I think that's very true. And when I first partner with a startup, I spend a lot of time up front to really understand what the role is, what they're looking for, the culture of the company, how they operate. So I'm going to try to do like a crash course right now, just looking at this. So it looks like they're based in New York. So one question that I have in my mind is what's their RTO policy? Are they open to hybrid? Oh, on-site, full-time. On-site, yeah, in-person. On-site, full-time. That's going to limit the search. OK, so then we want someone in New York. I'm still in the running at this point. Yeah, me too. Oh, yeah. Per LinkedIn. Per LinkedIn, per LinkedIn. TBD, how ethical that is. But we'll let that one slide. I'm looking forward to Chelsea, you know. All right, all right. He's manifesting. You got intentions. He's got plans. Mark's manifesting. Cool. So it's a head of product role. Head of products is an interesting one. It can mean so many different things. It's one of the most ambiguous titles, but, you know. Yeah, further down it says, I think it says the first product leader, which is interesting because I don't know if that means it's like the first PM. I'm going to guess it means first PM. How many people are at the company? Yeah, about like 30-something. Yeah, this is probably first PM. It's probably first PM. Not surprising. Not surprising. I've definitely worked on searches where it was placing the first product person there and we called them the head of product. I mean, I've, my last full-time job was head of product and design as the first PM. So yes, series A company. Yep. All right. So first product hire and, you know, they're a biotech company, AI generates scenarios, so probably someone that has deep AI expertise and obviously biotech would be helpful, clinical programs. So if they're, you know, more data sciency, that would be super helpful as well. You will be the first. You own it as a product, so you're going to have to roll up your sleeves, get your hands very dirty. So, you know, even though it says head of product, what they really want, reading between the lines is like that super IC that is going to IC from day one and, you know, grow into a people management position. Just, just one clarification as I'm reading this. So the company is Pathos, but there is a product they're developing called Foundry, which is the brain of Pathos. And it sounds like Foundry will become the AI companion that every drug developer at Pathos and beyond Pathos can't imagine working without. So this is kind of like a, I guess like there's a core Pathos platform and then this is what, like a new zero to one product within Pathos is kind of how I'm reading this. Yeah, I think these are AI, like platform that's going to be used internally to develop new drugs, basically. Okay. Yeah. Define how AI generated insights are presented to users, design interaction models, build the product function, excuse me, define what product management looks like, lead a small team of operators, minimum qualifications, you know, data intensive platforms makes sense, deep understanding of how AI ML works. Okay. I think I've got a pretty solid idea. Yeah, I think that's a decent amount of requirements and strong preferences. And even like the nice to, I mean, like the nice tabs aren't really going to matter on this. Let's be honest. Like, I think this is probably going to be mostly about the requirements if I had to guess. Yeah. And it would honestly be a tough search because it is pretty, there's a lot of, there's a lot of circles in that Venn diagram and then limiting it to only New York also is going to be really challenging as well. Um, comp wise, at least comp looks like it's in range for that role. So that's good for people just listening. It's 200 to 280,000 per year. 3D is usually means base, right? Like when you look at it, yeah, I would expect that to be based with pretty healthy equity on top for just curious, what would you expect on the equity? Like, uh, anywhere from like half a percent to 2% or something like that or more? Um, probably half, yeah, half to one and a half, 2%. There's such a huge range. I really struggled to advise companies on that because of how much of a range there is. Um, salary is, is much more well-defined. Yep. All right. So should we jump to who wants to be first? Well, Mark, did you want to, did you want Chris to like use his tool to like see who he can prospect or do you want him to jump into our profiles? Yeah, I think the first step that would be helpful, Chris, is like, okay, you just read this, you, you, you think you have a good sense what you look for. Can you walk us through like the recruiter point of view of like, how are you looking for people on LinkedIn? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So based on everything that we just described, um, what I would probably first start looking for is people that have been at the intersection of biotech and AI. So I would have Claude do some deep research for me on what are some of the top AI enabled biotech companies, uh, that are early stage and generate lists of those companies. And then in this case, filter to also be in New York. So then I would plug those core criteria into my, um, into my tool. Uh, that's, you know, a set of agents that I built myself that's going to basically go and pull in all the profiles of people at those companies that are based in New York. Uh, that's the first step. And then after that, I have a set of, you know, 14, 15 plus rubrics that are tuned towards attributes that PMs have and how you evaluate profiles, how you evaluate career growth, how do you assess, like, have they been impactful? What have they done? Uh, how you assess seniority, et cetera, that are then going to go evaluate all of those profiles and then surface the ones that feel like they could be the best fit. And then my agents will surface that to me and then I'll review each one of those, you know, by hand myself and figure out, okay, is this someone that could be a good fit or not? And if they are, then I'll reach out to them. Does that kind of answer your question? Yeah. And I'm going to ask a question and just to remove the pressure, I'm going to assume the answer is no, but do you have any, like from previous searches, uh, an example of an output that that agent has produced, um, of like, like profiles and like, kind of like the different, like, I'm, I'm almost like assuming it's like a table or like a little, like markdown file with like link, like how they, like how they did in the different, um, rubric, uh, role rows that you have, like, do you have any, an example of that one that you feel comfortable sharing? And I'm told, like, I'm assuming the answer is no, but in case there's an old search that, um, you feel comfortable sharing because the role has been filled. And by the way, we can always, uh, great people, great things out in the screen sharing. Like if, if at some point you share something that's like not, then let me pull up my tool. I want to take a moment before we get back to the episode to tell you about Insider Loops. This is a company that Mark and I started because we just believe this should exist. Companies should be offering candidates the best possible preparation for their loops. Yeah. What they give them is vague and often not very actionable. So we took the matter into our own hands. We've put together well-researched and continuously updated guides for PMs interviewing at companies like Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, Stripe, DoorDash, and more. If you're getting ready for PM interviews at those companies, go over to insiderloops.com and learn more. Now back to the episode. All right, so we're going to gray out basically all of it until you tell us that we can ungray it. All right. Sounds good. Um, so here's a profile that was sourced. Um, can we, can we show this or this part? Uh, I would not. Okay. Well, there's, there's just a lot of like personal information here. Um, but for those that can't see everything, there's a section up here that says AI insights. And what this is doing is my prompt for the agents says to score people on, um, a few different dimensions. I basically pick five key dimensions that the agents are going to focus on for evaluating that profile. Um, and it varies for each one. So the first one I said here is core. What that means is like, are they a core product PM? Because, you know, there's a lot of people that are growth PMs and core products is one dimension that I'm very much looking for. Um, actually, yeah, Mark, going back to one of your earlier questions or what have like different shapes of PMs, that's one thing I try to try to figure out. So, you know, for this particular person, my agents are saying they ranked a three out of five and being a core core product PM. The second dimension there that I pretty much always have is domain expertise. Um, you know, for the search for the path of search, how close are they to having some sort of biotech experience? This person, you know, let's say it's the same relevant search would be a two out of five. Then I look at stage fit. Um, you know, pathos probably series a company, I think 11 to 50 people there according to LinkedIn. If this candidate has only worked at the Googles or, you know, huge multi-thousand person companies, they're probably not going to be a good stage fit. Um, they could say that they want to go to early stage, but that's such a change in culture, such a change in resources that you have. That they'll, they'll really struggle and hiring managers know that, you know, if I try to present somebody that has mostly been at bigger tech, they're going to be like, are they going to be able to do this or not? Um, and I just don't want to waste my time there. Another dimension that I haven't looked at is seniority. You know, you really want to get that match right. They're looking, their pathos is looking for a head of product. So the, the titles that could probably be a good fit are anywhere from like senior PM principal staff to, you know, director, as long as they're not too tenured. So for that one, it's going to be a pretty big range. If I was doing a senior PM search, that's obviously going to be a little or much, much narrower. Um, but I, I'm wondering about the seniority. But by the way, what's tricky about the pathos role is that they are looking for a head of product, but they don't want anyone who starts hiring PM. They want someone who's going to be boots on the ground, building, like super productive, super IC, who is managing a team of like 50 AI agents. Like they do not want someone who is just going to be a pure manager, who's going to be building the team. So like, um, in case that Chris, question, question on that. Um, so if you were looking at, so, so there's a phenomenon at some big tech companies where call it like, um, you could be like a director. Um, so like, let's say a director level one or whatever maps to like, um, level eight individual contributor. Okay. Like, uh, companies like Google or Facebook or whatever. If you, if you see, um, director on that candidate's profile for whatever, four years, do you read that any differently for this role than if you see like, um, almost like level eight individual contributor or like, like a principal PM or something, um, at the same exact level, but like it's just presenting themselves as the IC equivalent of what they were doing, uh, instead of the managerial. Did those look any differently? Do you? Uh, definitely. If they're a four year director, I'm going to assume that they're managing and I'm going to assume that they're pretty far removed from IC work. If they've only been a director for, you know, one to two years, then I could consider them for this type of like player coach, super IC role, because they're not that far removed from, um, from IC. The other thing I would be looking at though, is the description of what, what are they saying for that particular role? You could be a director, but if what you write about shows that you're getting your hands dirty, you did X, Y, and Z, and it's not just about managing a team and growing a team, then that also signals to me that like, oh, okay, this, this could work. So I think it's a combination of, like you said, you know, director title versus like IC eights, um, your, your tenure in the role, but also like the substance of what you actually did there. Got it. Makes sense. So, okay. So the conclusion, um, just for the sake of time, the conclusion for the candidate that we're, um, you know, graying out right now is... Wait, actually, can we, can we get to the AI part? Like, I'm curious actually how you, because there's an AI part of it, right? Um, I'm curious how you're assessing that AI, um, criteria, because it's, it's hard to know, right? It's hard to know. Um, I think trying to remember how that rubric is designed. I think it's a combination of looking at the types of companies that they've worked at to figure out how AI forward or AI native they are. But then also the, the key thing to all of this, it's keyword based. Everything here is keyword based. So are you putting in AI forward keywords, um, in your profile indicating that like you think about that, you do that, you, you know what you're talking about. The proof is in the pudding. This just opens the door. And then like our initial conversation is where we figure out if there's actually substance there, but if we're, if I'm sourcing for a. there. But if we're, if I'm sourcing for a AIPM and there's zero mention of like AI tools, LLMs, etc., you're just gonna score pretty low. Yeah and this this person whose profile we're looking at has no description whatsoever for both their current role and their previous role, which I think is interesting. I mean maybe they're just not actively looking, but if this person was actively looking your advice would be add some descriptions. That is, that is so common. If they were actively looking they should absolutely have descriptions there. And even if they're passively looking, like I think this is one of the most overlooked things, and I'm certainly guilty of this myself, where even when I was passively looking I never gave my LinkedIn any thought. And in hindsight I'm like I was such an idiot back then. There's probably so many opportunities that I missed out on and didn't hear of because I didn't position myself to to be discovered. And I, every, every candidate that I talk to that you know wants to have a conversation with me because they're starting to think about that search, I tell them optimize your LinkedIn, put yourself out there, make it easy for somebody to discover you. And yeah. I was gonna just ask like just to close this part of the conversation. Do you even look at resumes? Almost never. Almost never. Do the companies care about the resume? I would say like a third of the, I always ask them if they want resumes, maybe a third will say yes send me a resume as well. I don't know how much they're actually looking at that. I think it's all about LinkedIn. LinkedIn is the first impression in almost every situation because like a resume is a page of text. It's a wall of text. Nobody wants to look at that. As you know I don't think anyone is gonna give LinkedIn any design awards but it's definitely more structured and easier to parse than a resume. Yeah. I just want to take a moment to publicly apologize for all the people that I made fun of for adding AIPM to their LinkedIn. I haven't done it publicly but I made jokes in private and I just want to say sorry because I actually is useful. Yeah that is still kind of like a not useful thing. Like I think Chris just to be clear my understanding what you're saying about including AI for keyword results is something like a description as part of a role. And Mark I know you're joking kind of but like I think what you're saying is like the description could be you know like like you know some indication of the product itself being an AI you know like you know you you like oversaw what like or you led the development of the the evals for ensuring or you know like the development of the golden data sets or you know like you spearheaded the you know brand news you know zero to one AI product innovation like product development in a company I'm just making up some stuff right now but you're looking for more like contextual like sentences about what they did versus like a title. Exactly exactly yeah. I think it's both though right Chris like you're saying like it's like like your system will flag someone if they have AI and LLM in their in their text and so it's like it is like you're still like you're still like increasing your chances of getting discovered if you have AI and LLM somewhere. So it is a joke but it's also like kind of true. Yeah but the substance matters and I think that's what Ben is saying where it's like if you just have AI PM in there it's like fine yeah like what did you do that description better mention like doing evals, working with golden data sets, you know testing different models, tuning things. Yeah there there should be something there. That said if you're an AI PM at a company that you know maybe has the right domain expertise and everything's light, recruiting is a funnel. So assuming some of the other dimensions line up you may just get the benefit of the doubt and I may reach out anyway and then we'll figure out on the call if there's actually any substance there. So it sounds like you would swipe you you might get swiped right and you you may or may not fully convert to a first date but if you get into a first date then it's like all of a sudden you have the ability to maybe impress them or say something that's cool so like yeah it's it is not gonna fully save you but but it sounds like it's better than nothing unless it's like completely a blamely lie and then if you're lying then it's like you know they're gonna cut you regardless. But yeah it could open the door and like bring you up to the top of my list but then I'm gonna look at okay where were you an AI PM is that an AI forward company what else have you done are you the right seniority like it's it's adding AI PM is not the silver bullet that's gonna make you a fit but that combined with everything else could bump you up. Makes a lot of sense. Okay I'm itching to get either roasted or have Ben be roasted. I think you should do I think you should look at both of us and just kind of like talk I suspect neither of us is a perfect fit I know neither of us I think that if any of us is a perfect better fit I suspect it's Mark I think I'm not a great fit for but yeah like talk out loud maybe through my by the way what can we can we fully show I mean this is my profile but is there anything that's on the screen right now that you're not comfortable. I think everything now we can absolutely show. Yeah cool okay so we're back we're back into sharing. So yeah. Alright so when I let's say my tool surfaced you I'd be looking at this profile first thing I'm gonna look at here is I do look at this I forget what it's called the about or the head the headline maybe. Headline. Headline yeah and I do take a look at that just to sort of like orient myself to you know what does this person do. Founder at Inside Loops love seeing founder don't know what in probably wouldn't know what Inside Loops is but it would pique my interests. Okay helping PMs land roles in Anthropic, Google AI, X Meta. It's helpful to hear like the X part and then I scroll down to the about section and I'll take a very quick glance at this. If what people are listing is just a regurgitation of what's in their experience section I'm gonna skip over it. The signal that I'm looking here is like we said earlier does this person have a narrative? Do they explain what they're passionate about? What they're looking for next? Why they've made some of the decisions in their career that they have? That's extra that doesn't come from the experience section. If this is just replaying that I'm gonna scroll down and look. By the way Chris was mentioning the for those listening the about section. By the way you kind of glossed over my location but because that's in Brooklyn New York it didn't even stand out. It's like oh yeah like New York right? Yeah yeah New York so fine great. So reading your about section first two are kind of a description of the things that you sell so not super helpful here but you've been a founder joined three different startups as their first PM. That's compelling. That's a great fit for this role so like feeling pretty good about this profile and then also held senior PM roles at Meta and Attentive. That's a great combination. If you're going to an early stage company and you're gonna be a product leader they're having both early stage experience but experience at big tech makes you a much much stronger candidate because you've seen you know what's the quote-unquote right way to do things what the right process is what the playbooks are but you also know how to adapt those for early stage companies and you're like really nimble and can thrive there. So that's that makes you a really strong fit. One thing against you though is you now partner with early stage founders as an advisor. These early stage companies they want operators they want recent operators and if you're not really doing that then you're probably going to get rusty. There's exceptions to the rule there always are but that just means he's a fun experience. Yeah I was gonna ask so like yeah and by the way I agree with this but like just wanna I agree with the merits of this but like the way an operator is seen as someone who's like actively in a full-time role as an employee is different than someone is seen as an operator who's like running their own who's like building their own company or founding something. There is some differences there. If they're currently a founder operator building a tech company though that can work. If they're a founder of an advising company consulting company I treat that very differently because you don't have the same types of hands-on building experience. So kind of what's missing from my about is maybe like it's not telling the story about what about how like Mark and I really do view Insider Loops as kind of like an AI native company bootstrap it's like a bootstrap company like we could raise VC funding and be like a VC kind of backed company but that story is not coming through. It's not coming through it seems like it seems like a coaching company an advising company it's hard to imagine like is what is the product that you are building either because you're working with engineers or you're having agents build it for you because that's the type of experience the hiring manager is looking for at the end of the day. You know you have hands-on with AI building hands-on with AI they can they can work in an EPD trio you know yeah work in a pod with the team. Yep okay. I think especially for Pathos they really care about someone who works in this modern AI native company so if you have that like I think that would be super important so yeah as long as that part is coming through that they are getting their hands very dirty like building with AI every day. Okay so then going down to the experience section yeah welcome to the mess of the last few two years. Insider loop so building company-specific interview guides so that to me sounds like a content play versus a product play so this would then be discounted in my mind if I was like quickly looking at this and I would just move on to the next role it's like okay when was his last traditional product role coach instructor advisor I'd skip right over that because that tells me you're not building member and podcast host skip right over that fractional product lead fractional is a little bit closer but if you're fractional you're not really in it you know you're you're far less accountable so I would kind of I was just giving that advice to someone to not use their fractional stories in interviews like last week so yeah that reinforces that so yeah below the fold you get to my last full-time role yep. Okay so then I look at that I'm also looking at the dates like how long ago was that February 24 so that's two and a half yeah two and a half years that's pushing the bounds of like it feels it feels distant it feels distant so unless everything else was a really strong fit I probably wouldn't take a I probably wouldn't give this profile the benefit of the doubt yeah you don't even keep reading yeah well then I would look at this one it's like continuum okay what do they do talent marketplace that's not biotech not seeing a huge amount of AI here is 24 so yeah not seeing mentions of AI and then go the previous one not not relevant not biotech. Those one-year stints are kind of also like an orange flag red flag right like kind of like one like less than two or three years in a stint is kind of like a orange red flag it is it happens the number of them also makes difference to back to back this one's 1.6 and then the other one's one you want sorry but I mean but yeah yeah no I wouldn't even bother asking the story I would skip over to the next profile yeah no just to be clear like I'm fully I'm fully I own I own that story for sure like now it's fragmented LinkedIn if continuum was like a very interesting like biotech startup that changes things if attentive was that could change things but I'd say the number of short stints here even if those are really good fits I'd probably have to pass because the clients are just gonna be like why are you just a summarize combination of lack of recency in a full-time role paired with the lack of the most recent full-time roles not being in the the domain and no paired with the poor explanation of how hands-on I am at like building with AI right now or kind of being like current with AI product development all of plus like the short stints like the back-to-back short stints altogether reasons for disqualification I don't even get a chance to tell you my story I just want to make sure that's all okay cool yep I wouldn't reach out oh man now I'm nervous for my profile I'm gonna grab a towel for a second I've got some Kleenex here for you I'm gonna keep my co-founder baby I'm just trying to make sure you guys keep this going so I can come on the pod again sometime yeah Mark and I are telling ourselves that we're choosing not to get full-time jobs but we're I think we're going to find out is we can't get full-time jobs as part of this the power of storytelling baby I wouldn't say no I think like it depends on what type of industry if you find something that's more adjacent to what you guys are doing now I think this could be really relevant experience and make you excellent candidates but for a biotech company not so much all right let's do it founder at super and insider loops so yeah this sounds more community oriented versus like actual products doesn't mention where he's worked before so I don't really know then I'll just jump to the abouts that's saying the same thing and describing what the community is which is not relevant for my particular search okay prior to founding Supra six years in products Asana product team first product intern when they were under 200 oh I like that because I know Asana is much larger so how long did he stay there did he see a lot of growth that's excellent experience b2b sass and I'm okay international expansion new user onboarding so that starts positioning him as like a growth PM in my mind and pathos very much wants a core product PM so this is feeling less like a fit lead product team at series a in the clinical trial space oh that's very interesting now I want to learn more so like let's just go ahead and jump to the experience Supra four years that's a long time okay so then I'm looking for the next full-time product role and jump immediately to Asana that was 21 did you does that tilde research one not hit you as a full-time product role I mean it was 10 months there's no description there till the research I don't really know oh okay I guess that's the clinical trials company that's the clinical trials company but there's no other detail here about what he did there that was as recently as 2022 but he wasn't even a year I had it in my about page what I did there but I didn't have it in my so I it didn't jump out to me you want you wanted to learn more and instead I want to learn more yeah I see less and I'm not gonna scroll back up and you every research isn't like necessarily like a household name so it's not like you know exactly what that means by just seeing it whereas Asana is a known brand so you value it more exactly one thing is in my tool that shows profiles I can just like hover over this to quickly get an overview of that company so I do have an ability to kind of like learn more quickly but my first instinct is gonna be good to go to the known brands that I naturally know and I see Asana there so you know let's say till the research is a really good company that was 2022 but he was there less than a year you can't make that much impact in less than a year so despite that being the right domain I kind of discount that and I probably pass he's been out of the game for too long yeah that's great and also the seniority is not a great fit either because products lead for 10 months before that was a p.m. I don't remember off the top of my head if Asana is good about levels or what they have there didn't really have titles when I was there and I mean there is definitely a progression and yeah I just haven't taken the time to explain in my LinkedIn right but then I would also look at years in seats so for you know four years that's that's about the senior p.m. role senior p.m. level if you're really high trajectory you could be a lead and he was a lead so the seniority is not quite the ideal fit they mentioned they want someone that's gonna have built a team or that's going to build a team soon this profile doesn't strike me as someone that's that has done it before or is you know really ready to step into that so I would also move on from this profile which means I super insider lives what's on super helpful yeah I think the takeaway for people listening and we could we could stop screen sharing now so thank first of all thanks for roasting us that's great and hopefully that the people listening understand that when people give them feedback on their LinkedIn profile it's not nothing to be taken personally just got to own your story right so I I own my story fully and I realize and I understand that my story disqualifies me for roles especially in this market where employers are being pickier than ever because because they can there's a lot of great talent so this just reinforces I think everything we're talking about earlier which is like as you think about the roles you want to go for really try to put put on the lens of someone like Chris looking at your profile for the roles you're going for and then ask yourself the questions Chris was asking as he was talking out loud and thinking out loud about our profiles and if you feel proud of the way that you're presenting yourself and you'd have good answers to all those questions then maybe this isn't the P0 thing you should be spending your time on but if you're not telling your story it basically someone would walk away from your LinkedIn thinking you didn't do something that you actually did or that you didn't have the kind of experience that you actually did have then you're doing yourself a disservice by not you know explaining those things on your on your profile really well. And it sounds like people also are jumping like between things right like even if you think you covered everything in the about section Chris might just decide hey actually I want to jump right in so it almost seems like repetition is fine and as long as like you're still kind of like also like if someone's gonna read the whole thing there's still differentiated content right is that is that more or less like how you think about it Chris? Some repetition is okay I would make sure your experience section has the most real actionable substance describes projects that you worked on what was your role what was the impact of your work there tied to business outcomes you know key technologies that you worked on if it's relevant if they're AI related if you're doing dev tools related stuff that's really the meat there. Use the about section to kind of draft a narrative that ties it all together to highlight any particular themes maybe a very very light recap of of your experience but again just to paint the picture of what the themes are what your superpowers are but like don't don't do like a don't do a skills dump don't do a word-for-word chronological recap of the experience. Chris just to make sure I'm clear does your AI keyword search like look at like the headline and the about section and the work experience section and like like all of that together? Yeah. Okay so it's not like one section in particular needs to be over optimized for keywords as long as they get the keywords in one of those sections they'll like show up likely in the in the results? My AI will look at all of them I'm gonna spend the most time looking at the keywords and then it wasn't turned on just now but I actually have another feature in my tool which will literally highlight keywords for me so when I'm starting a new search I'll figure out you know what are the most relevant keywords biotech AI for this one and set it so like my eye is literally drawn to where in that profile it lights up for something like that. Got it. Got it. Going back to one thing that you were saying earlier, I don't want to be all doom and gloom here. Like, the profiles, your two profiles, not a great fit for this role. But I think that doesn't mean you guys are totally out of the market. Again, candidate market fit. Think of like, where is your most experience relevant? You guys have been building community, helping people do interview prep. There's an entire world of HR tech or community driven products where that type of experience could be more relevant. So part of this game is figuring out, where do you have unique domain expertise? Where are you world class at X? And find a company that values X. And then position your profile around that. I still think you guys could be really, really strong candidates for certain roles, just not this one. Yeah. Makes total sense. Yeah. And I would say the bullet points, just to make sure I'm clear, the kind of typical advice you'd give to someone on their resume for what to put in the bullet points under their work experiences, is that generally what you want to see in the descriptions of each of the roles in their work experience on LinkedIn? Generally, but like a more succinct, easier to read version of that. If the experience section turns into a resume dump and it's a wall of text, my eyes are also going to glaze over on that. Yeah. But a few meaty bullet points per role at the minimum is kind of what you're looking for? Yeah. Cool. Two to three bullet points that have some substance there. Again, don't like word vomit. Don't make it obvious that you're just like keyword optimizing everything, but be thoughtful about it. Like complete sentences that look like a human could extract meaning out of them. Yeah. And ideals have some metrics, right? Have some numbers. Yeah. And like, you don't want to just be like, you know, words without meaning or without like substance. You probably want to care about progression and like care about results. And then I'll share one trick about like the numbers piece in particular. Even if sometimes those numbers are sensitive and even if you just put like XX percent growth or something like that, that tells me that you're thinking about that. You're thinking about that business outcome. You think in metrics, you quantify things versus you leave that out entirely. I'm like, do they even care about the impact or are they just going through the motions of launching this thing? Mark, it's what we talk a lot about with like the curation. Like you curating your story to just highlight what makes the cut to like being communicated is in itself a signal about what you value and what you think is important. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Cool. I know where we're at. Go ahead, Mark. No, I was just saying, it's just like also a sense that you have good judgment, right? Like you like it's really like it's like a prioritization exercise, right? You're choosing, you're prioritizing what you share with the limited amount of time that you have to do like an elevator pitch about yourself. But yeah, Ben. A huge part of, you know, finding the right PM is evaluating them on like product judgment. And like we said earlier, your profile, your job search, that is a product. Treat it like a product. Some people might even call that taste these days. Oh, the trendy word these days. Yes. Taste. Anyways, I know we're at time. Let's just wrap up quickly. Chris, do you have a few minutes just to do our, to finish up? Yeah, of course. Okay, cool. Of course. Amazing. First of all, Chris, thank you for doing this. And like I, super practical. I feel like every time I go through these, I'll learn something. And also just for not holding yourself back, just being super honest and transparent. Like I feel like not everyone would have done that. So thank you for that. And Ben and I got our good dose of humility, which is always, which is always healthy. And last two questions for you before we run. We end up with gratitude corner. One is where can people learn more about you and the awesome work you're doing, especially if they like what you heard today. And then two, how can our audience be helpful to you? Yeah. So you can, you know, my site is product-scout. You can find out a little bit more about me and my LinkedIn is also there and you can, you know, see some of the posts that I've shared as well. So you can learn more about me there. And in terms of what could be helpful, if anyone knows of product or startup founders or product leaders that need help building their teams would always love intros. I would also love intros to any really awesome product leaders that are exploring their new roles or looking for new roles. And just to clarify, usually it's more on the earlier stage, the people that are interested in like maybe like series A, series B, series C. Exactly. Exactly. Amazing. I also do want to do a shout out. Like I know you've helped a bunch of super members hire the PMs for their team. They've all had just incredible things to say. So I just want to do like just a quick shout out, like, like everyone just always is singing your praises. In fact, someone sing that in public, I feel like three or four episodes ago, Chris Gomes, VP of Product. Chris Gomes is great. Yeah. So, yeah, you're great at what you do. I think you're very unique. There's very few product recruiters that actually have done the product role and have done it for a long time. So I think it's just like talking about like, you know, founder market fit. And I think like you fit perfectly into that. So I think it's really cool that these founders get to work with you. And with that, I'll shut up and pass it on to Ben to grab you to the corner. Yeah. I mean, big plus one to everything Mark said. Really appreciate you doing this, Chris. In the spirit of gratitude to you, we always like to also finish the episodes with Gratitude Corner. A chance to, you know, give the guest in this case, in this case, you, a chance to shout out one or three or as many people as you feel kind of inclined to just to kind of give them a shout out for the role that they played in your journey and, you know, anything that stands out about the impact that they that they made and why you're thanking them. Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely people on that list. I'd say the first one I'd list is Colin Smith, like one of my best friends who just was the one to plant the seed of recruiting, even being something that I could do post product management. He's been building his own recruiting firm for a long time, exec now. And it's he's definitely been an inspiration. Another person I want to shout out to is Charlie Ruiz, you know, one of the super coaches. So I joined Supra when I was still doing product day to day. And Supra and Charlie in particular really helped me navigate that transition of am I going to leave product and do something else? What is it that I'm going to do? How do I build conviction about that? How do I get comfortable with making such like a big change, which I have literally called an existential crisis in some contexts. And yeah, Charlie and Supra were really, really pivotal in helping me make that jump. And, you know, because of that, I also want to shout out to Mark because like Supra really has been incredibly helpful in navigating that. And then, of course, you know, building and growing my business. I get to work with people from the Supra community all the time and I truly love it and appreciate that. So thanks, guys. Yeah. I mean, I love I'll give a big plus one to what you said about Mark, too, because like the reason I like I like that is because as a member of the community, it's it's never come off like overly self-promotional or anything like your presence in the community just feels like an additive gift. It's like, how lucky are we that one of us now does this and we can like loop them into these conversations and get their advice? And so I just want to say, like, what the way that you guys have made Chris's presence known in the community has always just felt really good to me. And like, I love I love the way that, you know, that's that's been working out. Yeah. And I have to say, I feel super lucky that Chris is part of it, like and that he can advise people. And I think there's such an amazing value out. And I think it's the beautiful part of it. It's definitely a two way thing, like, you know, Chris getting value, the community is getting value. And I think that's like what I like about the community. There's always people are not just like there's that balance of giving and taking. And plus one to Charlie. I feel like we had him in the pod. He's a great dude. And I also think like, you know, I super wouldn't be there where it is today. I wouldn't be there without his support and guidance. And so big plus one. I'm sure he'll listen to this one. I was actually texting him today. So but man, I'm really happy you got to do this. This is really useful. It was a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time chatting with you guys. Amazing. That's a wrap. Bye bye. See ya.