#93: Why a product marketing background is a PM superpower | Michael Chen (Product @ DoorDash, ex-Asana, Slack, LinkedIn)

Amazing. We are live. Michael, welcome. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Ben. It's official now. Yeah. I'm excited. Yeah. Likewise. Good to see you both. Yeah. I've been, I've been looking forward to this for a while and on some context. So Michael and I worked together at Asana. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's me. That's me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then after we matched We started 3 months apart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And. We started at the end of our first year at Asana. Yeah. Wow. And. Initially when I, when I met Michael. Yeah. He was a product marketing manager. Yeah. And. And. Yeah. Maybe where I wanted to start with. The point that I wanted to start with is. Maybe walk us through that kind of journey of going from marketing to product and kind of. I think, you know, we had people like Brian Chesky mentioned, hey, like, you know, that killer combination of like marketing PM is super powerful. And I would maybe love to get your perspective from someone who's actually experienced both right. And maybe like what. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. What. Was the idea behind that, a quote that Rhea, her employer at the time said to you, like, what is the edge that that marketing background has going to you now that you sit in that product role? Yeah, absolutely. And too kind of an intro, Mark. Hopefully I can, I can live up to it. But you know, at the, at the end of the day, when I think about the difference between marketing or product marketing product management, it all really central and comes back to your understanding of the customer, your understanding of the ability to know what the customer's trying to achieve and then coming up with a solution to do it. The fun part is I'm thinking out loud right now is product marketing and product management kind of have this cyclical role where it's identifying the need, building the thing, but then also educating the customer on how to use the thing and making sure that they are successful in that loop actually comes full circle. So when I think about my roles in marketing and my role in product, there actually is a lot of overlap and the transition in some ways is actually smoother and a lot more natural than I think what might be perceived as two very, very different types of roles. When I was at Asana and even before Asana, I was always kind of that product marketer that gravitated toward the development design engineering side. And then when I switched into product management, I found myself as the PM who understood the business and go to market and rationale of why someone would want to purchase a product And weaving those two angles together, I think it makes me a more whole or holistic round, a well-rounded PM or PM. But Mark, where would you like to go? Should we talk about? Well, actually, I had a follow up if you don't mind. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, of course, what, you know, two other impressive companies you skipped over probably out of humility were LinkedIn and Slack. You were working in product marketing at both of those companies as well before you went to Asana. And what I was hearing is that you, you know, you said that you've always kind of found yourself as the kind of PM and product marketing, you know, manager or even manager of product marketing people who got gravity, got pulled into like the design and user experience side of what was being built. So did that start at LinkedIn and Slack? And then did you try to like transition at either of those companies? But something about Asana is where it just like clicked. So I guess the answer to your question is it even started before those tech companies. So in my first career life, I was in consulting. I was in brand and marketing consulting. So at a firm called Profit, where I did work with designers, as well as analytics. So that holistic, qualitative, quantitative, left brain, right brain kind of thinking, as my core foundation growing up in my career, having that kind of exposure to that what we end up calling like human centered design or full brain thinking, exposed me to the operational analytics chops of building products going to market, but also that creativity that I wanted to infuse into the solutioning ideas. So it started there, the curiosity started there. And then I went to grad school, I got my MBA, plus a dual degree in what they call design and innovation, to then kind of solidify that interest in exploring what a combination of marketing product looks like. I chose to go to LinkedIn after business school as a product marketing manager because of that background in marketing. But even as I got into this space, part of my motivation and incentive is to get closer to the folks who create and build. And at both LinkedIn and at Slack, I was always working very, very closely with my PM design engineering partners, and splitting splitting kind of the two halves of my interests and my skill set. To answer your question, if I try to transition in each of the either of those companies, I never made that tangible effort to switch over because I had a lot of interest in the marketing side, storytelling, brand positioning, messaging, really ultimately connecting with the customers and helping them understand how to use a given product, as I was saying earlier, really was really important to me. And that was where my creative energy was able to come out. Mark, when we were working together at Asana, we were doing workflow stuff, right? And as we know, workflows are fairly complex. You have to know if then if then statements, you have to be able to construct it. But if we can find a way to make it easier for everyone to access, I saw that my role as a PMM was able to help rather, my role as a PMM would help people do that. And I was very, very interested in that. But then the other side of it is, well, maybe I can build products that can also help with that like education transition. And that's kind of how the two sides came about. So what you're saying is working closely with Mark is what finally pushed you like I want to be a PM. Mark is exactly if you want to be a product manager, you talk to Mark, he teaches you how to do it. And then he pushes you over the ledge. Hey, I didn't want to be the one to say it. But I'm curious, in particular, like I'm curious, like, OK, like it sounds like what I'm hearing is you there's still like this craft around storytelling, go to market that you just knew you wanted to develop. And that's probably kind of why you stick to it and doing your time in LinkedIn, at Slack. And there's just like, OK, I think there's things here that I want to learn, that I enjoy. And it sounds like maybe out of Sana you're like, OK, maybe, you know, I feel like I want to say like I have like fully mastered it, but like I'm very comfortable with it. And now I'm more curious and excited to maybe even go deeper on the builder side. And I'm curious, like, OK, it sounds like at one point you're like, I'm going to go for it. Like, I want to see if this is an option. I'm curious, like how actually how it actually went down. Like, I vaguely remember how it went down. But what did you do, what conversations did you have? And I'm always really helpful in that transition, because I think that's like a part where people are even scared to like ask that question because they're like they know, holy shit, like it's so difficult to, you know, break into product. And some people are like, yeah, how do you go about it? Well, let me start with the last thing that you just said there is allowing yourself, right? I think giving yourself permission, getting over the hump or the fear of making a switch is probably the first thing. And actually, as I think out loud, Ben, to your question of why not LinkedIn and why not at Slack? I think a part of it is that self-applied pressure of, you know, am I ready to do it? I am successful in the job that I'm doing right now in product marketing. Should I take the risk to make that switch and transition into a completely different new job? And then also, will I be successful when I get there? So I think being able to allow yourself to imagine, to think and get into even just the idea of being in that new position is perhaps I'm not going to like 80 percent of the work. So there's a lot more in that 20 percent, but like it's a big, big job, like feeling ready, feeling ready, feeling like you feel ready and that ready could be a conversation with a product leader to even show interest. It could be getting ready for an interview. But I think what we should realize is that each of those steps are there are two way doors, right? Like they're so low risk when you pull back and think about it, that it shouldn't be a hindrance or a barrier. And I think those conversations and then this will start getting to how I did it. But those conversations are the ones that really helped me evaluate. Should I be in this role? The answer turned out to be yes. Do I think I will enjoy it? Yes. What are the fears that I have? And then trying to just figure out what the actual realities and answers were to say these are risks or fears I'm worth that are worth me jumping into and seeing what it's actually like or these are actually unsubstantiated fears that were just in my mind and, you know, I can I can get past them. Yeah, I think like, yeah, like a lot of the fears that I've heard is like, hey, like now I have a good job, right? Like I'm going to go back, maybe like take like a title cut. And then what happens if I like miserably fail and then I go back into that role? Like, you know, people are going to look at me like a failure. Maybe I might lose like my social capital that I have, which, you know, I wouldn't say they're like completely like off, but like I think they they're not necessarily like true either. Right. Like I think it's if you're at the right company, like they're probably going to scope. It's not going to be like, hey, like we're going to make this change right away. Like they're probably going to scope an experiment where you can actually test the waters. And it's less about like you like it's kind of more like a two way conversation where it's like they're not just going to be like, hey, you're great for this. We're going to keep you or hey, you're not good at this. We're going to fire us. We're going to be like, hey, actually, like let's test it out for six months and let's have an honest conversation. Be like, are you into it? Do we think you're good at it? And then if you're not like, let's have like an easy, like almost like exit for you to go back to your current role, which obviously they hired you for a reason and you're adding value to the company. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think both sides of what you said are true. The fear element, the risk element, as well as kind of the gradual transition elements. I'll speak to both of it. Right. I think when so for me, I was leading a team at Asana in product marketing and to go from PMM to PM meant that I will have to go and learn what the new PM job is about. So becoming an IC, taking a step down and from both a role level title as well as the trajectory that I was on, it meant not taking a step down, but starting over in a sense. Right. I am no longer the lead of a team. I am trying to figure out what it's like to start in this career. So that isn't a real element. And I want to acknowledge it because it isn't a fully risk free thing. And let's say I have done PM for two years, decided it's not for me. I want to go back to PMM. There is a little bit of a gap that I have from the trajectory that I used to be on. And hopefully the PM side. And by the way, I'm not trying to transition back to PMM, but hopefully the new new lessons that I've learned as a team can apply to it. So saying there is a risk and we can find ways to kind of mitigate and suppress some of it. But then, Mark, to your point, on the other side of it, there is a big, big support system. I think your example is of mine, which I made the transition within the same company I was working at at Asana. And I had the relationships, the leaders, the subject matter knowledge to be able to bounce from PMM to PM and then be able to to gradually work my way into that role with the knowledge I had. Even if the transition happens outside of the company, I think that kind of support system can still exist. So it's there's definitely ways to do it in a way that doesn't feel like you are off on your own and you're taking this huge, huge risk that you can't come back into. Yeah, and I'm curious how it actually went down. So it sounds like maybe. That's right. That's right. It sounds like, you know, you were mentioning maybe like product leaders saw the potential and talked to you or or was it more you approached that product leader and was like, hey, like, is there something here? I think I was going to ask just one quick follow up before we dive into how it went down, which is like staying on the topic of fears for a second. So there's like the fear of what it means from a trajectory and kind of like career story perspective if it ends up being, you know, something you want to go, but, you know, quote unquote, a mistake, which I don't really believe in those. But but that's one fear. Assuming that fear was mitigated, was there also any fear about your like ability to do the job? Like were there any big unknowns or big kind of like fears you had about, man, like I don't actually know if I can do it. Yeah, that part, so to answer your question, I think there absolutely was fear about like would I be able to do it, but I think part of the luxury that I had doing it in the same company is I didn't necessarily realize or think about those fears too deeply because I knew the subject so well. I think when making the transition, you got to figure out like what what is that transferable skill set that you want to carry over that can help segue you into that next role? It could be subject matter, industry knowledge. It could be deep, deep knowledge on the customer and what their needs are. You might be a very technical oriented product marketer, design oriented, whatever that element or flavor is for you that you can carry in. You might have really deep research methodologies and understanding. And that is another transferable skill. So I think it's owning kind of what your spike is in your current role slash skill set and then being able to take it over to the other side. And then I remember doing a reflection a few months into the PM job where it's like, OK, what has been easy and what has been challenging? And I think by nature of the partners who you work with and by nature of just what the role is, getting to that technical depth, working with engineering, I think is the was the biggest change. And then kind of coming back to Mark, what we were saying earlier about having the right relationships and partners to take you through. I very much do remember my tech lead at Asana. We developed just such a close relationship that we were able to he was able to help me understand a lot of the technical intricacies of the products that we were building. We were building templates and workflows and a lot of just like gnarly technical implications in how we design these kind of spoke hub and spoke type products, being able to learn from him, brainstorm with him, being able to ask questions without the fear of feeling like I'm asking silly questions was a really great way to then develop the elements in areas that I just didn't have that background in, but then was able to then turn it into a strength as we developed newer products that required some of that more technical knowledge. Yeah, that makes total sense, like your domain knowledge plus just like really strong curiosity and like your ability to relationship build with the people that understand the subject matter expert in a part that you didn't get exposed to in product marketing, which is the entire engineering side of things and the code base and all that stuff set you up for success. Yeah, Mark, what are you going to say? Yeah, just some context to like kind of workflows for Asana is basically like you can think of them as like, you know, building Zapier instead of Asana and maybe even like, you know, having some connectors. But yeah, it's a pretty technical product. Like it's not like infra or security level, but there's a lot of like, you know, performance related things and kind of integrations. Exactly. That are not super easy. But yeah, I think I just want to double down on a point that I think Michael made that I think for anyone listening that is thinking about a transition and that I think is super important is that if you want to make the change, I do think that you have to have one of those spikes. And I think Michael had, I think, a couple of them, which I think made you like, I think probably explains why yours was so successful here. But, you know, I think the domain expert, I think it's like you even worked at, I believe that you also did workflow work at Slack, too. So you had worked at multiple companies where you've already were bringing that domain expertise and you've knew what worked and didn't work. So it almost like you really came into Asana as a marketer with that expertise, which I think is really cool. I think also you ended up working at a space where you already kind of knew all the players and you already knew like that stakeholder map of like, you know, who is who? What do they care about? I think that also made it super easy for you to just like know how to get things approved, kind of how to get the ball rolling. And then I think also you had credibility, like you did a really good job as a marketing lead. You had a seat at the table. So I think all those things, I think they just probably served you really well. And I think also you were self-aware, right? Like you knew, hey, like here are the things that I know I'm really strong at. And here is the thing that I suspect is going to be harder, which is, you know, maybe the technical depth and the technical like ins and outs and kind of building and investing in that relationship with that tech lead probably paid dividends for many months, which I think is really cool. Yeah, absolutely. I think that between the two of you, you've mentioned a lot of really good keywords like curiosity, relationships, advocacy, the spikes in knowledge. I think, you know, whoever is listening to this and think about making that transition, I think a lot of it is just knowing what you are good at and being very confident in it and then kind of transition to your original question, Mark, that our listeners have been waiting 10 minutes to hear the answer to. Like, how? You do have to ask, you have to. I mean, this is applicable to everything, right? But like if there is something that you are curious about that you want, you shouldn't feel afraid to ask. And the worst that could happen is someone may tell you, no, you're not ready yet, or we need you to try these trial projects to prove that you're sufficient at a given skill set before we will put you into the official process. For me, it was so I had relationships with a few product leaders within Asana, those who I work very closely with, especially in the development of the workflow space and ultimately the launch, right? But they had always knew my curiosity about building product. When I was a product marketer, I also contributed a lot to the development and design conversations. So they knew how I think. Mark, to your earlier point, they know what I am good at and the credibility that I can bring to this space. So I think when the ask came and it wasn't as direct and maybe it could have been and should have been as direct of a, hey, I would like to transition into the product management team and organization. It was more like, oh, I'm really curious about what it would be, what it could look like if I stepped into more of a product builder role. They helped kind of pull me along to the they finished. If I took it 80 percent, they took me the final 20 percent. To kind of giving that confidence and pushover. I very vividly recall the moment that I got officially pushed into the interview phase. I hadn't myself agreed to it just yet. It was so Lily, Lily messaged my then manager in product marketing was like, Michael is interested in switching a PM or going to start the conversation and shocking at first, but I'm forever grateful to Lily for having having done that because I may have held myself back once again. Part of it is because I was growing and being and I was successful in product marketing. Right. The risk became larger and larger the further I went in my career. But Lily helped kind of just put that to a not put that to a pause. That sounds like but she was able to help me just make that decision to explore. And then I can make the final call if I wanted to make the switch over. That's awesome. And you so it sounds like you had to go through an interview process for it. That's what I was going to ask is how much how much of that was a surprise to you or yeah. Yeah, no, it wasn't a surprise. I mean, I feel like if you're going to a new role, you should you should be able to go through the interview and more so importantly, it's less about like, hey, can you finish these case interviews and do the standardized process? It's more about you will have new cross-functional partners in this role. So talking with engineers, my manager, the tech lead designers in that process so that they can hear how I think or what my philosophies and principles are in approaching product building with design and engineering that I think is a very legitimate and fair thing to ask for. So interviewing shouldn't be scared of. And quite honestly, I think the interview process, both for my case as well as in general, should be a way for you as the person trying to get into that role to learn about what it would feel like to, you know, work with these partners, but also to do the job. But I did have a case that I knew a lot of these people, you know, I did. I did. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, but they did put me through a quick case in review as well. I think there is merit in doing the case prep. But yes, then I did know many of the folks who I interviewed with. And part of it was formality. But I think they also took it through as a real legitimate interview, asking the same questions they would to external candidates, because I think it's only fair to evaluate me against, you know, someone else who's coming in for that role. Yeah, and I'd be remiss not to ask this, but you had I'm imagining that you're imagining myself going through interviews in your shoes with a bunch of people who I've already spent time working with. Now the cat's out of the bag. Everyone knows I'm going for this PM role. It's not mine yet. They're evaluating me. If I don't get it, basically, if I if I like fail the interviews and I don't get the job and now I'm in product marketing, there's a part of me that's thinking a part of me might be like scared about that, right? Like, what would that mean for my future and my current role? Like, did you did it feel like there was a lot riding off? Like I'm sure it did feel like high stakes interviews, but did you kind of like worry at all about what it would mean for your ability to continue your current role if it didn't if it didn't kind of pan out? The honest answer for me is no, and I think it comes back to the relationships, right? I think for me, the the interview process was a continued exploration of how many legs does this interest have and to see if if I'm ready, to be honest, right, for this kind of role switch. I think if I hadn't made it through the interview process or if during the interview process, I decided, hey, this is actually not for me, my manager was on board for me to explore. So coming back to the team or so to speak, wouldn't necessarily have been a shock. The work I would have been doing, I would have continued working with the same partners. So I think treating it as an exploration, especially at your own company, just lowers the pressure a little bit. Now, I did have a team, and I think that is probably the biggest relationship set to manage because you don't want to feel like you are abandoning your team as you are exploring. So there is a bit of tact. There is a bit of, you know, when to make certain things public as you're as you're making the switch, especially if you do have other folks that you look after. So I think be mindful, being respectful to people who you would directly impact is really important to keep in mind versus like for me in what my own feelings or reputation is. I think I can be not careless, but be able to find the solution afterwards if it does have some kind of implication. That's such a good point. That's such a good point because you're saying is like, look, you felt the responsibility of the people that for the people that you were you were managing and you wanted to make sure that they at no point felt confused or unclear about what their future at the company might mean or what this all means to them. So you're taking that really that responsibility very seriously. I'm curious, like if someone's listening and they maybe are in a similar situation, are there any good kind of like, not advice, but like any heuristics you would give them for maybe how to decide when to communicate to their team that they might be exploring an internal move like that? Yeah. Oh, that's a it's a really good question. And I think it's so subjective. So I can respond from what my point of view is. And I think it depends on whoever you are and what your team and relationship looks like. You know, for me, I recall making the announcement after I had gotten the approval and okay to be in product management. And I think I had come to the decision for me to make the switch. There is no no reason to make an official announcement and jar the team if you're not actually making that move. That being said, my team always knew what I was interested in, not so much like role and job title wise, but just where my interests and strengths lie. So when the transition was made, it wasn't a surprise that Michael moved into product management because he wanted to explore this. One thing I do recall doing before that announcement, before making the official switch, is to make sure that my team landed with another manager or managers who I think could help that person in their career development, be a good landing spot in terms of like roles, coverage, responsibility. That was incredibly important to me because the last thing I think that the biggest risk or the biggest, what's the right word? The last thing I would want to happen is for something that I have done to cause a negative impact on someone else and especially someone else I care a lot about. So there were a few prerequisite steps, so to speak, before I made the official call. But once I did, it was more so, we're sad you're leaving, not like, what? This doesn't make any sense. So that was my story. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like, yeah, like any perf conversation shouldn't be like a surprise, right? Like a promotion or like letting go. So it's got similar principles here. Yeah. And I think you can also frame it in an exciting way, right? Of like, hey, like I'm not leaving the company. Now you have this ally that knows you well, that you can leverage, that sits in the product org, that will probably be useful to you. I can give you the intel or whatever you need to do your job more effectively, or even just like give you the empathy or kind of like the behind the scenes of how to work with these very important functions better. So and but yeah, I think as you were sharing all of that, like there are a few things that I just also like want to want to emphasize that are really important. I think to me, like there's three things that come to mind as like you kind of sharing how you went about the transition and interview. One is like just like there's this humility of like, hey, like I might not be a good fit or hey, I I'm willing to start over. I'm willing to maybe take a lower thing. And I recognize that, hey, maybe I'm a beginner here. So I think that's like really important. I think the other thing that's and I think really important here is like the curiosity, right? Like you didn't go with it of like, hey, like I I 100 percent want this. You were like still questioning, hey, like I'm going to go through the interview. And this is not just for them to evaluate me. It's me for see, hey, like, is this actually what I thought it would be? And and I think with curiosity, it also comes like that growth mindset. And I think kind of all those things combined, I think what they probably did was kind of like lower the stakes for you and also probably made people in the other teams more excited to work with you. Yeah. And I think there's definitely a fine balance of doing that and kind of like having enough confidence. But I think if you can pull that off, I think it's super effective. Yeah, absolutely. I think approaching approaching these types of conversations where you are able to bring your whole self and exactly how you think into a conversation instead of trying to meet the list of requirements and trying to speak and answer questions just to what you think is a successful or correct answer that allows you to take your spikes, take your skill sets into that role. And I think that mentality of there's there's not as much to lose here that I'm exploring, that I'm curious. Well, there's traits and elements of being a good PM is that curiosity and exploration and understanding of asking questions, whether it's to yourself or to the team that you're going into. But it also just for me, it provided me more of that runway and permission that allowed me to then come to a conclusion that, oh yeah, this actually is the right role, the right team, and I am very excited to go explore what this new job looks like. You saw it as a test, it sounds like. It was like an, it's an experiment or a test, and you're just, I mean, I think positioning big changes in general as a test is such a good, like, hack that I did not know about earlier in my career that I, like Mark and I, whenever we're thinking about making a big change, it's something we always are like, hey, like, let's just, let's just run a test, like, see how it feels, and, you know, after you run a test, if you just wanna keep doing it, now that's, like, the new thing, right? It never, there never was, like, a big thing that had to happen. It was just a small test that you just keep doing, and now that's the new status quo. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's. And if you don't want it, you just stop doing it. Exactly. Like, when you are in that position, right, like, let's acknowledge that when that is all that you think about, it feels like the biggest, biggest decision in the world. If you zoom out and realize and recognize, like, any transition, right, and like, Mark, if we get a chance to, I know you switched out of traditional tech, and you're crushing it with Ben in this new role. Any kind of transition, I think, unless you have zero fear and zero risk, there is some element of questioning whether the next thing that you wanna do is the right thing. Ben, to your point, if you treat it as an experiment, if you treat it as, like, let's see and test and learn what the pre-post looks like, let's feel out what the new feels like, and then recognizing what is a one-way door versus a two-way door, recognizing that career changes, while they are things to be taken seriously, and when you zoom out to just how long careers are, that it's not a one-way door. You can always go back. Or, I think, Ben, you said very, just a little bit ago in the conversation that there are no mistakes, that each step in a career shapes your story and your skillset and who you are, and it ultimately pieces together a more complete picture of who you can be, and then, for me, my story, brand, marketing, product has helped me become this unique shape of product manager than any other of my PM peers and colleagues who have their own version of that. If you're enjoying this conversation, please check out the links in the show notes to support the podcast. Marc and I do this out of love, but to keep it going, we also need your support. Thanks, and now back to the episode. Yeah, in a way, I mean, I look at your kind of career trajectory, and I think, kind of like, now think a little bit more with space. To me, actually, the more ballsy move, if you will, is, I mean, I think the change from PMM to product inside of Asana was, I think, a big one, but I actually feel like the change from product at Asana to product at DoorDash, based on what I know about the two companies, seems like a really also big change, right? For someone who spent so much time in that B2B SaaS workflow and space, right? You had that domain expertise that you built for five plus, six plus, a long time, right? To a company that not only just is in a marketplace, but also culturally operates so differently, right? In terms of how data-driven they are, how business-driven they are. So I think what comes to mind I'm really curious about is I have a hunch that experience, that that change taught you way more about where you spike, what makes you unique, what are you really good at. So yeah, I'm curious just to hear how that change was, because to me, it's really fascinating. I feel like we're skipping the juiciest part, though, of how he landed in the PM job at Asana. I feel like we're skipping ahead. Okay, fine, fine, we can go back, sorry. Just selfishly, can we get some closure on the Asana chapter first, and then talk about the DoorDash move? Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it. Which parts of it? So, okay, so you had the interview lined up, that's where we left off on that story. You had the interviews, you saw these as an exploration with people that you had good rapport with. There was a case, you aced all of it, from what I can tell. We don't need to get into the details of the preparation process. You announced the change to the team, made sure everyone had a soft landing that you were managing, and then just jumped into the role. The biggest question I have so far to this point is was there an existing role that they were trying to fill that you raised your hand to fill, or did they create a role based on, it just happened to be perfect timing. You're interested, business needs are evolving, maybe we'll create a role for you and interview you for it. Yeah, if I recall correctly, I think it was actually the latter. So I, and I guess I should say, this interest to getting the role wasn't an overnight, not even like a one week, two week thing. It actually happened over, I think, a span of six months or so, because to your point, Ben, like there does need to be a business need. It's not like Michael has this interest, let's just go put all of our resources behind him. There needs to be a role at the company that I do think or the leaders do think that my skillset can transition into. And for this, it was based on the subject matter knowledge. And because I had been product marketing a lot of the features and roles, I became a very, very easy and natural transition into. So it was making my interests and intent known to the leaders who I had great relationships with, being patient throughout the process of waiting for a role to open up. And at the same time, being willing and able to take on a few, I would call them trial projects, just to dip my toes into what it feels like, looks like on my own time, so that I can be a little bit more prepared getting into there. And then there became a business need. It wasn't an official role job opening, I think, but my skillset just fit so well into what the team needed that I was able to kind of slide into that position and opening. Yeah, and the reason that I think that's so interesting and important, and it's something that when people think about how do I get promoted, like those kind of questions usually is when it comes up, it's like, don't forget there has to be a business need. If there's no business need and you're crushing it and not getting promoted, that can happen, right? So what I'm hearing here, that's the one takeaway for someone listening is if you hadn't been explicit with the product people in that part of the business, in that org, that you were contemplating a move into product and willing to do little test runs or projects in addition to your current job, I'm assuming is how you positioned it, and de-risk it, like basically I'm able and willing, right? If you hadn't been explicit about that and then these business needs came up and the pieces on the board started moving, they wouldn't have probably thought about you for that. But because you were putting it out there and then the pieces move, obviously they had to connect the dots. You can only lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. So they had to connect the dots on themselves that they should pull you in, but that's just the importance of, I think, putting what you want in front of the right people and in the right way. I think it's also just not like a one-time ask and then hope that they still remember six months later. The nature of my relationship with these product leaders is I actually had an ongoing working relationship with them too, right? So we would continuously be able to make progress on the feature sets and builds and voice of customer that would be kind of the normal day job. And then the conversation would, well, continue to be a conversation as time passes. I think it shouldn't necessarily be one of these cagey things that you feel nervous or anxious about. Just as any good relationship is a constant conversation and checking in if a reminder needs to be had, but also trust that the other person has you and your best interests in their mind. Is there such a thing as too frequent of a check-in, by the way? Just kind of, I'm really trying to put my hat on of someone listening. Let's say they have that great relationship and they have, I don't know, weekly or biweekly one-on-ones. I'm guessing you don't want every one of those one-on-ones to be like, hey, just checking in on any opportunities for me to do more product work. Did you find a sweet spot for how often to bring it up? So if I'm just thinking out loud, put yourself in the shoes of that person and that manager, right? And think about it as a promotion as an analogy type conversation. If you were a manager and you're direct every single week, ask, am I gonna get promoted? Am I gonna get promoted? You wanna help them and then at a certain point, you're like, please stop asking me and you're actually gonna start doing yourself a disservice. But the more that you can show, prove, and indicate why you're good for that promotion, the more that you kind of just crush it at what you're doing, people will recognize it. I think we work with really good people, really, really smart, bright, intuitive people. So as long as that relationship is there, which whether it's your manager or the product leader, you should also trust that it is there. And then I would say, if I really had to put a time marker in it, weekly is way too frequent, right? Monthly, maybe just as a nudge. But if you, I think you should wait until when you think that it may have actually dropped off the mind and it might not necessarily be a check of like, hey, did you remember that I wanted to make the switch from marketing a product? It could be understanding the business needs. It could understand what the product's roadmap is. And then if you can also be a part of the solution too, and show how you could fit the evolution of the product of the roadmap, then you can influence and make it more likely. Just don't make it pressure and don't be that, are we there yet? You know, kind of person, be a part of the solution and then trust that they also have you in mind. This is such good advice. Yeah, go ahead, Marc. I mean, I was gonna say like, I think that being that, am I there yet person will probably do more harm than good, right? Because like, I don't know, like that person is likely gonna be your manager or be in that reporting chain. So they're like, oh man, if this person is really like this, and I'm not even managing them, imagine when I start managing them, right? So I think there's also like, I think, but I think like that empathy for the other person is really good. And I think a sign of a good manager too, like they will remember if this is important to you and they will proactively kind of update you on it as well. Right, like I think, so it's, I think so it's like a good test for you to be, hey, how would it be to actually report directly to this person? Because it's kind of like a simulation almost of how that will change, right? Because you're, they need to help you accomplish your career goal, which is what a manager should do. The other thing that just sounds so compelling about what you, because we talked about what not to do, but I think the what to do part of what you described that sounds so compelling is I'm putting myself in the shoes of this person that you're talking to about basically an opening on their team, right? And this person has call it the day one view of how that part of the product evolves, right? Like how that area, how the staffing, how the investment, how the roadmap is shaping up, right? And you're involved as a product marketing partner. And at some point you lean in, right? And maybe you didn't make it, maybe it's not deliberate leaning in, but like you just kept crushing it. And the way that you did that was by partnering to come up with a shared vision, it sounds like, of where that part of the product should go. Where, where should the, how should the roadmap shape up? What's the vision for that part of the product? How do we bring what we're learning from customers into how we place our bets? And at some point, what I'm picturing is this, this person you're working with on the product side goes from like, wow, like there's like a lot to do in this space, right? Like there's like, we need to like really invest. So who can, who's going to be the PM lead for this area? Right, am I going to, am I going to find someone else? Am I going to lean in? Am I going to move someone internally? Or what about Michael? Like he's already, you know, like you kind of like, you kind of made it so that it was such a no brainer to go with you, I imagine, versus to have someone else try to fill that, right? You know, it's like, that's kind of what I'm imagining. So what popped in my mind is one side is knowledge and the other side is storytelling. So let me explain that. If you are doing a great job at your product marketing role or whichever role you currently are in, you are probably already thinking about the space, the domain that you're trying to go into. And you've thought about the strategy, you know the customers, you know the needs. If you can figure out what the current roadmap product strategy looks like, and hopefully like in your day job, you're also thinking about and influencing that, being able to show your vision, your direction, and like where you think this role, job, product, whatever, fill in the blank, could go to. I mean, just to be very direct, you have a line of communication to the hiring person better and more than any external candidate would. So if you can get the person you are trying to convince to bring you into that role, excited about your vision and your knowledge, what more advantage could you ask for in that sense, right? The storytelling element is being able to then present it in a way that is compelling, that is interesting. If you're just giving problems of like, this is what we need to go solve for, or just stating this is what I think the strategy and the roadmap should go into, the person may take it or leave it. But if you can paint both yourself into the picture of what the direction you want to take. When I think about strategy and vision setting as a PM, this could be a tangent, but I think it's relevant. Vision in and of itself without a path to reach that vision is, well, it's worthless. We can say the coolest five year out ideas that we have, but if there is no tangible path to get there, and then as we kind of transition into the DoorDash learnings of PM, if there's no metrics of success that you can measure to get yourself to that three, five, 10 year vision, then it's just words on a paper. So I think painting what the end goal is and getting a person excited, this is just like marketing as well, right? Showing what is possible, getting them excited and inspired to reach the possible, and then putting it right in front of them of how you want to take the steps to reach that possible. It's how you can treat your own career, and it's how you should think about product strategy, vision, and also just your customers. And I think the, I would even take it a step further, right? Of like, because I think your superpower as someone who understands marketing, understands go-to-market, as you were saying, is I think there's the element of storytelling, but it's also the element of like speaking the business language, right? And I actually think like at Asana, PMs unfortunately, I think a lot of times weren't, that was not a really big part of the product culture to speak the business language. But I think you and the marketing order was better at that. So I think probably what you were able to do is not only just convince the hiring manager, but also kind of package that information and that story and that almost like pitch in a way that they can take that and take it to the CPO and be like, hey. So it's almost, you made it really easy for them to go and make a case for you. And also by that, you also made them look good, right? So I think there's this whole thing of like, you made it really easy for them to manage up, make the case without them having to do extra work. So I think it's like this beautiful virtuous cycle. And probably that would have been really hard to do if you didn't have those go-to-market teams. Yeah, I think one core competency of a good marketer, product marketer is knowing the personas and users, right? And in B2B, especially B2B SaaS, understanding the difference in nuance between user versus buyer is incredibly important because buyer has the wallet who you have to convince with your product and your vision and the roadmap of where you wanna take your product to, to invest in the purchase of Asana, of Slack, of whatever that product is. But then that buyer may or may not be the user that you're actually building the day-to-day product for, knowing the user and the connection to the business of how we can actually help the company grow revenue and sell more product. At the same time, being able to, being able to supplement it with the typical DAU, MAU metrics of usage and success, combining those two things together, I think is what can really paint the picture of why the business knowledge connects to the product strategy, and then how do you put it together so that they are together, you're not building in a silo, and that the investments and resources that you as a PM are putting toward a project or a feature will actually move the company as a whole forward, as well as, of course, benefiting the customer. Yeah. I'm definitely eager to touch in the door dash, but also I wanna recognize that I am familiar with this story of the transition, so Ben, I wanna make sure that you got the closure you need before we move. That's great, I appreciate the filling of what was a knowledge gap for me. I think that made a lot of sense, and I think added a lot of really helpful context for someone who might be thinking about kind of like operationalizing and taking action on their desire to make that move. And then the dot that I just connected is that kind of, like, I think currently at DoorDash you're working on, I think, building tools for restaurants to establish some digital presence, and I'm wondering if the buyer is the same as the user, because there's like the restaurant owner, and then there's like the person, is the person who create, I was just, maybe when we get to what you're working on at DoorDash now, maybe we can talk about that, but I was thinking that's a really interesting mindset that even though it's a marketplace, it's different than Asana, I'm guessing people at DoorDash mostly focus on one side of the marketplace while keeping the rest of the ecosystem in mind, so maybe it's not as much of a leap from like how to think about the customer as I had originally thought. Yeah, yeah, we can dive into details. To answer your question directly right now, I think it's both, right? There are some massive chains out there that do have multiple employees, and the person who has made that purchase decision is probably more so in the day-to-day functions and operations than say a CIO of a massive Fortune 50 company to employee number 10,000, right? But there are also restaurant operator owners who it is literally the mom and pop shop, and you are the person cooking the food, but also managing the business operations, the marketing and all of that. So it is interesting how, well, for both sides, when you build and design a product as well as how you message and educate slash market your product to the user buyer, how that shifts a little bit where I think the foundations and principles are probably pretty consistent, but the execution comes a little bit differently just given the size and different industry we're in. Yeah, I'm guessing your go-to-market chops, like your product marketing chops, are so critical given the nuances of how you wanna communicate differently to different segments. Like when I was at Facebook, I worked on advertiser guidance, but there's so many different ways to slice and dice the advertiser population. In Facebook, the way you talk to every one of them is so different, and I'm sure the same is probably true for DoorDash. So being able to put on that customer empathy and the language, that's what it is. We talk about first principles a lot, and if you can just come back down to the, if you keep asking why, why, why, then you can really get yourselves in the mentality, the mindset, and the shoes of whoever the buyer is, whether you're a CIO at Amazon or if you are a Mark owner of Mark's Sandwich Shop. If you really know why you're building what you're building because you understand where the customer is trying to get to themselves, then I think that that's what you have to keep in mind as both a marketer and a product manager, if whether it's messaging to them that resonates or a product that is of value to them. Yeah, so now let's go back to Mark's question. So when you're making the leap, it's like a super long detour, but when you're making the transition or choosing on the transition from Asana to DoorDash, did that really, because I think Mark, your point was like that sounds scarier than maybe transitioning internally. Like did it feel that way? From just being in a whole new company perspective and building new relationships, like yeah, I have to prove myself out again, right? Where I had the luxury of, I've already carried the company, made this impact at Asana, delivered XYZ launches to have, grow the revenue by this much. I am a relative unknown, just any company, whether it's DoorDash or just going somewhere else. So I think there is always a, you have to spend some time to cut your teeth, to learn how the company does work, what they value in terms of success, whether it's success as a business, success as a product manager. So it takes a little time. And I think there's an element of giving yourself the grace and then continuously also developing relationships at the new company to see what success looks like and then how you can bring your skillset and spikes in. But yeah, a switch, daunting, but nothing that you can't kind of overcome. But I think actually, oh gosh, I'm trying to remember a quote from one of my business school professors. I think he was talking about promotions where he said something to the extent that this is a poor quote, but if you can already do 80% of the job, then you are already overqualified to do it. And I think that can apply to just this, whether it's fear or feeling like it's a big jump or not. If you feel like you are already going to go into that role and crush it, maybe that's the right thing for you, but maybe you are actually stepping into something that's not helping you grow and develop as much as it could be. So the switch between Asana to DoorDash, it is a big switch from how product management is done, the people, the culture, all of it. And I think the switch has been tremendously valuable for me in just how much I have learned to see how a different company operates in this space, a highly respectable one at that matter. And then just learning a different way of doing it and then figuring out how to bring my own chops and skills to not just fit into it, but hopefully accelerate and make the function and organization think just a little bit differently as well. I'm curious, what have you learned about your strengths or what are you bringing to the table now that you're like, because yeah, I think, as you said, I think there's a lot of changes from the role and I think that's what I was getting at, is you kind of step away from the workflow world, you stepped away from the relationships that you had really healthy, like social capital at Asana and different business dynamics, different product culture, right? So I think when you have a shock, you kind of all of a sudden, you have to reset and you kind of are able to understand a little bit better, like, hey, here's the kind of the value that I bring to the world. And maybe how is that connected to your previous career, either in consulting or marketing? I think it takes a lot of introspection and thinking about what you think you excel at and what your strengths are, I'm gonna take a slight detour. One thing that I have often coached folks who asked me this question about just job and role transitions is if you go to LinkedIn and look at a job description, I want you to skip the job title, because what you see in the, what you will do in this job is the most important thing. And it may be labeled as a product manager, a marketer, or even an operation specialist, but if you like look at the bullet points of what it takes to be successful in that role, and also what they're looking for, then you can kind of picture if this is something that you wanna do and you think you will be good at. In a similar kind of way, I think really knowing you as a person, as an employee, what you can bring to the table, that is really important to anchor on, because, so for me, it's like, I know customers, I know research, I have the ability to develop very close relationships with cross-functional partners, being able to speak the go-to-market language and knowing when to pull our sales partners in, but then also having the ability to work pretty technically with our eng, and like knowing the skillset, then you can bring it into the role and kind of have the confidence of, I can be, I can succeed in this job, in this role, even if it's a different environment. I think that makes sense, right? You're saying, it's less about the title, it's more about, hey, can you do the different tasks or things that are responsible or capabilities that this role requires? Yeah, I think the part that I was more curious about is, is there any areas that maybe you kind of like, do you know that you're uniquely good at that Disney environment that made you realize, hey, there's something that I do that's very special that I maybe didn't recognize? And maybe like, how have you decided to double down on that or like, yeah, how do you currently think about how you grow as a product person based on those inputs that you're getting in this environment? Yeah, if I think of it just like a tangible example, one of my first projects at DoorDash was, is being able to establish SaaS subscription tiers for some of the services that we are providing to restaurants to help them create their own first-party digital presence, to convince a restaurateur to choose the right package that is relevant for them, it requires helping them understand what they can get to with a given subscription tier and then how they are able to use those features to get there. And there is a very, very large element of product marketing and storytelling there of painting that end goal that a restaurant could achieve, whether it's, you know, X percent growth or, you know, whatever that end result is, but then being able to, through examples on the landing page, through animations, videos, interactive demos, being able to build that as a product manager that helps the person who isn't always thinking about the operational business side, see it, feel it, and then believe it that they can get there with this package. So I think that's how the two roles and original skill sets actually come together into one. Yeah, it's almost like building like a exciting end state that you want to lure like your customers into and then kind of like ask every step along the way, kind of giving them the little like guideposts of being like, hey, like this is one step closer to this and just like making sure that they're not losing perspective of that kind of, you know, destination. Yeah, exactly. And it's maybe less about like luring, but it's more about exciting, right? Like when you are making a purchase decision for whatever it may be, whether it's a SaaS, you know, software product or buying the next suitcase, there, unless it is a commoditized product and you really are looking for feature, feature, feature, there does need to be the, you need to convey what the value is of the thing. And that's what a good product marketer does, value-driven marketing versus very feature-based. And I think in the same way as you're developing product, you have to be able to prove that your product delivers value to the customer. And, you know, for especially restauranters, but also really just anyone these days, the attention, the amount of time that you have to convince is very, very short. So hopefully the way that you have designed your product is simple enough and attractive enough so that the value is immediately heard and known. And then as the user decides to spend more time, you can start showing more of the how and that's where you can showcase a bit more of the features that you're building that can allow the user or the restaurant to reach that end destination. Amazing. I wish you had more time to keep going, but maybe one final question before we get to our final questions, which I think it would be a disservice if I didn't ask you, Michael, but as someone who has made the switch from marketing into product, and, or, you know, and I'm sure And, or, you know, I'm sure there's some people that are thinking they're in a similar spot where you were maybe like three or four years ago that don't want to make the switch, but also we probably also have some PMs listening that and that want to learn more about, you know, the go-to-market chops, the marketing chops. And so given that, given that to mind, like me, can you share maybe like what you've learned about like the combining these two beautiful disciplines together? Yeah, you know, I think given the moment in time that we are in right now with the availability of a lot of these AI and prototyping tools, I actually think there is no better time for someone who is close to customers, use cases, marketers, sales folks included as well, to be able to take their ideas and then leverage the technologies to show what they are thinking and turn that into product. I think at the end of the day, AI and these tools are only useful if you know what you're applying it toward. Product marketers, core competency or one of them is understanding user target audience personas, as well as applying products and features to use cases. So if you deeply know who you're building for and why you are building for them, I think that you have the tools to show that off now and then also become a product builder and that whether it's being used in your transition into an official product management role, or if you just want to build, if that is your interest, not necessarily like, you know, interviewing for this job, but you've always wanted the ability to create, which is a lot of what my original motivation is, you can now. So tap into what you are good at as a PMM and then leverage that for the destination that you want to get to, be it a job in product management or the creation of a product that you've always wanted to try and build, but now you can because the tools are at your disposal. That's such a good point. And we actually had a similar conversation in our previous episode of like the bar to become a PM has never been, in a sense, like the entry bar has never been lower, right? Like in the past, you had to get the role, then get access to a lot of engineers to build like what you had in mind. Now you don't have to wait for any of that. You can do that yourself. And it can actually be such a powerful artifact of like, hey, like, listen, here's what I can build and kind of showcasing. And if you have that, that storytelling chops, right? Like deep under the customer, you have such a good chance to standing out and being unique because that's actually the differentiator as you know, building gets commoditized and being able to sell a compelling story, being able to attract the right users. Man, that's so valuable. So I'm so glad we covered that. Standing out from the noise right now and just like making someone care about what you're building, I think is that's definitely not going out of style. That's, that is a very, very exciting. And bringing that like emotional decision making element into a product as well, I think is, you know, hopefully something that's not forgotten about. It's something that a marketer can really inject and infuse into the development of a product. And quite honestly, hopefully makes that product better as well. Because there is a reason behind it. There is a brand for someone to purchase and really get behind. Cool. All right. Well, we could keep going, but I think it's probably a good time to start wrapping. So we've got a couple quick questions and then we want to do a gratitude corner because we did talk a lot about journey and I'm sure there's maybe something to think. So the two quick questions are, if someone wants to learn more about what you're thinking about these days, where can they go to follow you or learn more? And then if they want to be helpful, is there anything they could do to be? Yeah, absolutely. I think LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. I know there's maybe a few Michael Chen's out there, but that's where I usually post a few of my ideas. But would also love to connect if you are thinking about something or if I can help you out in thinking through your own career journey, whether it is a transition or if you're just curious about something. And then if you want to help, I think, reach out with those ideas. Right. I think we the exploration and conversation, the community building of people who have interdisciplinary backgrounds is a space in a community that I would love to continue to build up more. I think the future is going to be interdisciplinary if it's not already. Right. So let's bring people with curiosities together and see how we can help one another just evolve ourselves, our skill sets. And then hopefully if there is a tangible move that someone wants to make, let's try to bring the folks together who have done it. And we can help each other out there. Hell yeah. Yep. Sign me up. Okay. Now for gratitude corner. So we talked about this journey, this career journey of yours. Is there at the, you know, I'm sure there's many people that played roles for you. So, and getting you to where you went, but is there anyone you want to maybe acknowledge as part of the journey? We talked about today. That was kind of like say thank you. Can I quickly fire out three, three people? I, I think about folks who have either been at the, like in, in these transitional moments with me or the folks who have like really encouraged me and mentored me throughout. So I'm going to start chronologically. The first one, his name is Evan, Evan Ling. He was my first manager at LinkedIn who brought me from consulting and business school into PMM. And what I remember so vividly and kind of why he told me I passed the interview process was that he was willing to take a bet on me because I answered one of his case interview questions in a way that he had never heard of before. So he took a bet on me because of how differently I think and said, even though product marketing was not on my resume prior to this, that my curiosity, the ability to think creatively and out of the box would help me become successful. So Evan, you first got me into the tech world, into product marketing. So huge gratitude there. Continuing chronologically, Cece, Cece Stallsmith. She was the person who brought me into Slack, recognized that I had this relationship and knack of being a product marketer who could work closely with product. And she brought me in to try to develop that relationship and codified a bit more Slack, but has continued to be a close friend and mentor of whenever there are ideas to just bounce them off of each other. And she's now the head of marketing at Lovable. So we still keep keep in touch a lot. And then of course, the last person, Lily, Lily from Asada, who is the person, that product leader who helped encourage me and then was able to bring me into the product management space. I wouldn't be in this conversation without Lily. So thank you, Evan, Cece, Lily, much gratitude for where you've helped me in my career. Man, I love that. Yeah, I like gratitude for it. You have to think back a little bit and hopefully they hear this. Yeah, Lily's awesome. I mean, the other two people sound awesome too, but Lily, she was my manager too at Asada for some time and I learned so much from her. So, yeah, if you're listening to this, thank you for everything you've done. And yeah, with that, I really enjoyed this. Michael, thank you so much. I think you have such a cool journey. And yeah, I just have a lot of respect for the work that you do and for the impact that you have and just your humility, your growth mindset. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Ben. This was fun. Yeah. Thanks for doing this. If you enjoyed this conversation, please share it with someone who you think would benefit from it as well. We really appreciate it. We'd also love a follow or a rating on Substack, Spotify, or YouTube. That's going to let other people find us. And if you have any topic recommendations for a future episode, please send myself or Mark a DM on LinkedIn. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks.