OpenAI’s Head of Design: This is the best time in history to be a designer | Ian Silber

I've been doing this sentiment survey of the tech workforce. Surprisingly, designers are just the most unhappy on every dimension. We're unclear right now what is expected of a designer. Someone who might be classically trained in a certain way of working now feeling like, oh my gosh, I need to really change everything. You believe this is the best time in history to be a designer. We're all extremely early in this process. There's just a huge opportunity for designers. Nobody should feel behind right now. I think that if you literally started today, you're going to have a leg up on pretty much most people. There's just so much opportunity to change the way we work, to make great things. If you look at engineering, it's just a completely new job versus a few years ago. I'm curious how that translates to product design. Engineers have 10 or sometimes like 100x their productivity. But our design team hasn't because the design process still takes time. It's still sometimes you have to try a bunch of things and throw them out. Still very messy and fluid. We had a podcast with the head of design, Cloud Code, Jenny Nguyen. She talked about there's been this traditional design process. Prototype, mock, test, use research, iterate. And now there's just no time for that. There are certain features for Chats with UT where we really obsess and we really spend a lot of time. We try 100 things and we throw out 99 and we finally ship one. And other things we really embrace building in public. We take big swings and then we learn quickly. Do you think AI will ever be an extremely good product designer? I think it already is an incredible product designer. Today, my guest is Ian Silber, head of product design at OpenAI. Ian's been in this role for three years now, which is a lifetime in AI time. Prior to OpenAI, he was at Artifact, the news app from the founders of Instagram that I absolutely loved. Before that, he spent eight years at Instagram. The role of design is in such an interesting place right now. And Ian has such a unique and insightful and fascinating take on the future of product design and what the AI tools that we use every day will look like in the future. A huge thank you to Sileo and Joel Lowenstein for suggesting topics for this conversation. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out Lenny'sproductpass.com for a year free of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI products in the world available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Ian Silber. Ian, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm even more excited. Something that I'm very excited to get your take on. I don't know if you've watched me doing this, but I've been doing this sentiment survey of the tech workforce over the past couple of years. I think it's the biggest survey of its kind, where we basically survey people in tech about how they're feeling about their careers, their work, their roles, especially with the rise of AI this last year. And kind of surprisingly, designers and user researchers are just the most unhappy on every dimension, like every actual dimension. They're the most overwhelmed, the most anxious, the most, the least optimistic, the most worried, the most tired, also the least likely to recommend their role to people entering the workforce. I'm curious if you are seeing this yourself in the design community, and if you are, what do you think is going on? First of all, it's an incredible survey, and it's such great I think information to have as an industry. And I think it's something we need to unpack, and I see a mix for sure. I think like I can speak most to design. And I mean, I talk to a lot of designers that are very optimistic and very excited. And so I see in my world, I see, luckily, I see a lot of that, but I can totally understand why people might be feeling very uncertain, right? Because there's so much discussion about, well, is the role changing? Should my expectations be different? And, you know, well, do I need to do X, Y, and Z? Do I need to be shipping code every day? And, you know, someone who might be sort of classically trained in a certain way of working now feeling like, oh, my gosh, I need to like really change everything. And I think it's, to me right now, it feels like the uncertainty of that, I can totally understand, right, because as an engineer, I think people have, they've already sort of gone through that ship. Like we see that engineers are working totally different. And we also, you know, one thing I do here, and this came up a lot in my own team, when we did, we do similar surveys internally, one of the big things that came up was, you know, we see that, you know, engineers have 10 or sometimes like 100X their productivity. But our design team hasn't, right? Because the design process still takes time. It's still sometimes you have to try a bunch of things and throw them out, right? Versus maybe working with a coding agent, you ask it to do something, it's pretty binary. Now, at this point, it usually sort of gets it pretty well. And, but the design process is really still very messy and fluid. And you think you have a great idea, and you try it, and it sucks. And then you try it again, and it sucks. And you give it to, you know, users, or in turn, you get internal feedback, and it's wrong, and you still have to go through that arduous and kind of messy, but really fun process. And that hasn't really come that it's compressed in that you can get much more ideas out fast, but you still need that that whole sort of feedback loop. There's the alignment of getting many people, you know, especially in a bigger company like that, it still has a lot of overhead. So the point is that, I think that it's we're unclear right now, like what is expected of a designer, and that lack of clarity, I can see totally lead to, you know, some some fears, or some unease, I guess. But on the other hand, I've seen that, I mean, our designers, what's been what's great, I think, about OpenAI is like, we're such an experimental company, we are driven by, you know, research, and we treat our company as a research lab. And we totally embrace that. And that's a new thing that I really kind of learned and really come to love about OpenAI is that started as a research lab, that DNA is like deeply embedded in everything we do. And as designers, I think that, you know, you come here, we look for people that are not don't have a background in AI, but are like, really curious about the tools and how it can work. And we found that, like, just by sort of supporting that excitement to explore that people feel less pressure. It's not like you need to change the way you work, but it's more about encouraging exploration. And when we've done that, when I go and talk to both very senior designers and early career designers at our company, they're so excited, because they, I literally was just asking some people before this, because I wanted to get some different takes. And they, you know, I think the feeling is that, like, they have so much more ability to be creative, to express themselves, to try bad ideas and throw them out. You can just like really move through lots of different ideas, and it becomes this incredible way to create. And the things that I'm seeing from my team, the bar is raising, I think the thinking is getting stronger, the more that they're using these tools. So I think for the people that are starting to embrace this, they're starting to feel really excited and realizing that they have just so much agency as designers. And like, you know, so much more ability to have like really high impact as a designer. This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Repl.it, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by WorkOS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by large companies. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS. Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand up market ends up working with WorkOS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are a seed stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth. It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit WorkOS.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to WorkOS.com to make your app enterprise ready today. What I'd love to do in this conversation is help folks that are in that bucket of what this sucks and things aren't going well. Because as you said, and this is exactly where we found that survey, is about half of people are having the best time of their career, having the most fun, the most optimistic about where things are going. And then the half are not having a really hard time. And exactly what you said, the people that are having a great time report, like the main, the most, the strongest correlation is they feel amplified by AI. It's actually making them better. And that's the way you described engineers. They're, they're seeing that now. They're like, holy shit, I can do so much more. And so just to kind of reinforce the points you're making, the attributes of people that are doing well, feel amplified, very curious, have time to explore, feel like they can be more creative. Is there any more thing more along those lines of just like patterns of people that are doing really well and having a great time that might be helpful for people to hear that are not having a good time? What I see in the folks that I think are really embracing this, right, they are using it every step of the process to kind of help them. Right. And, and I think it helps, you know, we have, we have a community of course, of designers that are all trying this together. So if there's any way to kind of find that and that, that's something that we should think about more as a broader community, how we kind of help each other. But like, I think that learning kind of different ways of working. Right. And so it might be, okay, I have this idea. Let me just actually start by trying, what if I just threw this right into Codex or cloud or whatever tool you use, like throw it into, into an agent to help you think about it, to help you prototype it, just try a different way of working. It doesn't necessarily mean that that has to be the exact right way, but I don't know, I think we've found that just people that are embracing this, that are adaptable, I think adaptability is like another term that I think we all hear a lot now, but it's like so true. It's like knowing that this stuff changes very quickly. What didn't work yesterday might work today. I mean, literally like within, you know, six months, this entire industry has shifted. I remember I was actually out on, on paternity leave towards the end of last year and I was working on some side projects and I was trying some coding agents and it just like, it worked, but it just kept kind of running into these hiccups and, and then like a month later, like Codex drops and I tried it again and it's like, oh my gosh, it just works. And that I think changes a lot of the design process because now all of a sudden, if you do have an idea, you can like plop it in there and just try it. And so anyways, I think it's, it's just really about like not being scared. I think another thing to think about is that we're so early. We're like, so in early innings of this entire evolution, right? It feels like things have changed a lot and it feels like maybe we're pretty far into this shift, but the good news for anybody who is trying to design or get into design, whether again, like if you're early career or late career, or you've never even like actually designed anything, but you've been thinking about it is like, we're all figuring this out as we go, nobody has like some perfect answer about the, how the design process should work. And it's whatever you think is working today will probably change again. And so I think what's encouraging about this is that nobody should feel like behind right now. I think that if you literally started today, you're going to have a leg up on pretty much most people and just really thinking about like how you can just make great stuff and there's just so much opportunity to change the way you work, work or to, to just to make great things and what we think is like really cutting edge today will look so archaic and, you know, a year, let alone a month. Right. And that's something I've, I've learned, you know, I've been at OpenAir for three years and I think about the stuff that they, you know, we were working on when we, when I first joined, I mean, I remember getting a demo of, of like our, our early voice mode that we hadn't shipped or computer use that like, you know, barely worked. And now it's like become, it's, it literally has become part of the process of how we design, we use both of those tools to, to build software. And so anyways, the point is it's like changing very quickly. We're all extremely early in this process and nobody really has like that, it figured out. I love that. You've also, when we were chatting ahead of this year, you actually told me you believe this is the best time in history to be designer. Yeah. I mean, I, I truly believe this. I can't even imagine, you know, so when I, okay. History lesson when I was getting into design, I mean, I was like in my teenage years, right. And I was like, you know, to learn things, it was like, you know, I, I was kind of like learning to design and code and you could like view source on a HTML webpage and kind of see how things were built. And that was like kind of how you had to learn. And, you know, you could, I don't know, it's like Dreamweaver and, you know, like there were these really tools that actually were really cool. But to compare those to today, if I were just getting into design, the fact that you can like learn so quickly, you can kind of like have an idea to working version of it in like, like a matter of minutes. It's just, you can be so expressive and, and you can, I think anybody can be a designer. Right. And I think that as more and more software is made, more and more products are made. I think that the, I do think that the human element of design is going to really be, start to become more and more important. It's, it's always been the case that I think that, you know, companies with great design, you know, can of course stand out. I think that's going to be more and more important, right? I think that products that fully understand their users and that make something delightful, when anybody can make anything, you know, that's going to become one of the most important kind of like sort of dimensions of a product and that's how people are going to evaluate it. And so I think designers stand like that is, that is our core job. Right. You know, and, and then on top of that, I think that designers are just much more empowered. So, you know, at a, you know, I was talking to some friends that are thinking about starting a company and talking about the sort of ratio of design to engineer and how like at a startup, maybe that's totally different. It might, may have been like, you're gonna have one designer and I don't know, 15 engineers or something like that, you know, that maybe a startup I've seen that sort of ratio. But there was, they were talking about, well, maybe we'll have like two designers and one engineer, one really good engineer who can make sure. a really good engineer who can make sure that we're really building something that's rock solid from an engineering standpoint, but then we want two really creative people that are going to be thinking about how we build this product. And so thinking about that, I think that there's just a huge opportunity for designers. I think that internally, we see that more and more, designers are completely empowered to take an idea, to take a early research concept and try to figure out how we can actually package that up into something that people want to use or that solves some sort of unmet need for our customers. And that is a designer's job. And so I think that maybe more and more people start to think of themselves as designers. But either way, I really do think it's the best time to be a designer. So along those lines, when Marc Andreessen was on the podcast, he had this hilarious way of describing the state of the product org right now. He's like, basically, there's a three-way standoff. PMs, engineers, designers, they all think the other roles are going to go away, and they're the ones that are going to win in the end. And so there's this Spider-Man meme where they're all pointing at each other. And I'm curious, because I can see a case for each role becoming the dominant role. And I completely agree with you that with all of the tools being shipped, there's like 1,000x explosion in products being shipped. There's just like endless streams of things to pay attention to. You'd think design would be such an opportunity to differentiate and stand out. I haven't seen that yet in just like an acceleration of design hires and explosion, as you said, like two designers to one engineer. Do you think that's coming? Why do you think that hasn't happened yet? Do you think it's, as you said, just early and people will realize, oh, wow, we need a lot more designers? What do you think is going on? We might start to see that happen more. Or if anything, we might start to see engineers wanting to become a little bit more design-focused. I also think that designers are getting more productive. It's not necessarily the same direct output of like engineers 10x-ing, but we are seeing that designers are able to do a lot more. But no, I mean, I think that that is something we're sort of always thinking about and evolving. The other thing I wanted to talk about too is like the difference between PM and engine design and are they all blurring together? And my point of view is that they definitely are. And there's always been overlap as far as I've seen it. I've seen designers that are like kind of really good product manager type, archetype, but can design. And I've seen designers that are like really good sort of polish engineer type. I've always found that these like single siloed role definitions don't really make sense. It's just that at big companies, you have to have like a ladder to put people on so you can generally kind of like organize. But in reality, when you look at a team, you see that there are people that have various strengths and people that play different roles. And so I've always kind of seen that. I think those lines have always been blurry, but they're becoming blurrier for sure. But the other thing is I do still think that, and maybe this is thinking about it from like a slightly larger company perspective, but I think you do still need people that have certain responsibilities, right? Because if you have one person that's expected to design, to rally a team around something, to align a whole company, to do all the work that like a PM does, for example, and also be designing it and also be engineering it, it's just maybe not, it might be hard to find one person that's good at all of those different skills. And so I still find a lot of value, for example, in having like an excellent PM that can help rally multiple teams together, that can help sharpen kind of the perspective or the problem space that a team is focused on, that can help with like resourcing, all of those things, right? And so I do think there will still be value in people focused on different parts of building a project or a product. That doesn't mean that maybe there's more fluidity that people can move between them, but having somebody who is sort of generally responsible for these different things, or an engineer who's like really making sure that the output is totally sound and is actually like lottering up to something that is gonna work for the broader system. I completely agree. So just to make sure I understand what you're saying is just, this is talk about all the roles blurring. There's like, maybe we'll just be builders and we do everything. And you're saying is like, no, that's not gonna happen. Like the Venn diagram, I'm picturing Venn diagrams of product design engineering, like converging, but you're saying they're gonna continue to stay their own roles. There's a VPM design engineer, but each can do more of the other roles. I think that's right. I do think that like, and again, this is not a blanket statement, right? Because I think if you're at a startup, that's like very different. If I were starting a company right now, I would hire like the best generalist people I could possibly think of, someone who I think could kind of fluidly move between that. But maybe again, maybe that's always kind of been true. But at a bigger company, I do think that I've seen like designers that are maybe incredible at designing, but could really use a product manager who can help them kind of with like hone both their thinking and then how they work and the operations of it all. So the point is, I do just think that there are different, it's almost like taking the people out of it, I think that there are different sort of hats that you need to wear to build great software. And I think that those continue to be important functions, I think. So this begs the question, do you think AI will ever be an extremely good product designer? And just to like, it's interesting to ask you this question because on the one hand, you're like, oh yeah, OpenAI, like JATTPT is gonna become incredible at everything. On the other hand, it's hard for a head of design to say, oh no, design is gonna be done by AI. I'm curious to get your take. And you know, it's like, sounds crazy, but like engineers never thought they would be able to write code the way it is now. So just, yeah, thoughts on just how good AI will get. Maybe one way to put it is, I think it already is an incredible product designer. It really is actually already great. The cool thing about it though is it's accessible to every single person. And it's a tool that anybody can use. I do think it's really good. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that it's like the best visual designer or best at, you know, information hierarchy or typography or even, you know, user experience and interaction design. It's not necessarily like the best at any of those. It's impossible to predict where things are going. And like I said earlier, like, you know, how much has changed in three years? Of course, they're gonna continue to get better. But the way we think about it, and I really do believe this is like, we're building tools to enable people to be more creative, to be, to do more, to build more. And so it is already a great designer, but you, it's at your fingertips to kind of figure out how to use it and how to get the best out of it. Where do you think human brains will continue to be most valuable as AI gets better at product design specifically? What are kind of like the remaining areas for us to be useful? Truly understanding what people need. You know, I mean, the human feedback loop of watching people use something and understanding that. The, you know, inventing something new. I think, and then of course, there's just the pure like human kind of take, right? Like, oh, somebody made this, somebody had a point of view about this. I just think that, I do think that will stand out more and more. And I think that that's like an important thing for a designer to like really hone. It's just like, what is my point of view? Who am I building this for and why? And I don't know, I think like as AI becomes more and more like better and better, for sure there will be an opportunity to always kind of stand out and push. How can you push that even further? Yeah, that touches on a conversation I had with the PM of Codex. Asked him just why is AI not good at design. It's actually gotten better since that conversation, which was just like a month or two ago. And he had a number of reasons for it. One is just like part of great product design is doing something new. And so if it's trained on all the most interesting websites today, it's just like, okay, but that's not interesting anymore. And the other point he made is like AI researchers aren't innately great at design. And so they may not understand exactly what it takes to train a model to be really good at this. Dots, what do you think it'll take to get AI to be much, much better at product design? I mean, the new thing is interesting, right? Because I think that everything we're doing is trying to design something that hasn't existed before. Right? You know, if you look at great products that have come out in the last, you know, 10, 20 years or whatever, right? It's like all of a sudden, you know, take the iPhone, we're designing for multi-touch. And that opened up like this whole new interaction paradigm. And there's no training data for that, right? You have to, you're kind of really trying to understand this new thing, right? And then you had something like Instagram that was like really embracing the sort of like, the fact that everybody had mobile phones. And then Snapchat, I think is another good example of great design in that it was kind of a, maybe people thought strange sort of like interaction design, but it completely thought, like flipped on its head the way people might want to communicate with each other. And to me, that is like great design. It's like truly understanding, like I, you know, the people, like people have this problem or there's this unmet need and I'm gonna build it with this, in this unique way. So yeah, I do think that there's that sort of like fresh, new kind of way. And then now with AI, it's like we're designing, like how do you talk to something that is, how do you talk to AI with your voice, you know? Or how do you use an agent to like carry out tasks for you? It's like, yeah, there isn't a lot of precedent for this. And so I think that, you know, humans are able to kind of do a really good job kind of evaluating, you know, what good is and, you know, or at least kind of like trying a bunch of things and learning along the way with people. And so, I don't know, but again, like all this stuff changes really quickly. It's hard to say, but I think there's a lot of reasons why having that human in the loop is gonna be so important. And kind of following that thread of the human in the loop, when you're hiring designers these days, what's kind of trending up in what you look for, what you think is more and more important in the designers that will be successful today, especially at OpenAI, what's trending down with anything? This might be a luxury of having a slightly larger team, but if you're, you know, at our scale, you know, but even at a startup or a smaller company, I think this would still be true. I really believe in hiring a well-rounded team that has many different strengths. So I think it's important to have kind of like your handful of, or the right ratio of sort of generalists that can kind of do everything. But, you know, we also hire like incredible visual designers or we have like a really amazing sort of brand team that helps us with kind of like the sort of maybe, yeah, expression of our brand, both out and in the product, or great prototypers or, you know. And so I think that rounding that out or great sort of product thinkers that are a little bit more strategic or people that are like really obsessed over like the very cutting edge of where these things are going. And I haven't found that one designer necessarily checks every single one of those boxes. I think people just naturally are, you know, drawn to certain things. And I think embracing that when you build a team is actually like, if you have the luxury of doing that, it's like really valuable. Okay, so that's like my abroad statement. But then as far as what we look for, we do definitely, you know, I always tell candidates, we do not expect you to have a background in AI, because again, this is evolving so quickly, but we definitely expect high curiosity about it and high aptitude to jumping in and learning how you're gonna use this in your process, how it works. And not just how you're using your process, especially for us, like how you're gonna create tools to enable more people to use it. And so it's more about the curiosity, I think, is something that like we really push on or look for. And then definitely prototyping. Prototyping is something I've always valued in my career, but I just think that, you know, it's become more and more accessible. And so that's something that I think really does stand out usually when we talk to candidates. And then I do think that, yeah, just like having some, having a point of view on where these things are going or just like any of the tools that people have worked on and really thinking that strategic thinking. I guess last one on this is like systems thinking is becoming more and more important. And, you know, especially as you're like in our world, it's interesting, because we're trying to build, you know, we're building the super intelligence that has all these different capabilities. And we need to think more about the underlying primitives that we can build that can kind of build on top of each other, right? You know, this is something that I think like Notion did really well early on was like, we're gonna build these building blocks, right? And then like everything kind of is composable. I think that's becoming really important too as you think about like, well, we don't wanna build all these sort of one-off siloed experiences. We want to be able to build and ship systems that can build on top of each other so that, you know, when someone goes and uses our product, it feels like one cohesive, simple thing. And the model can reason about how it can pull these things together. So that like idea of like really understanding the system and thinking about that is becoming even more important, especially because it's kind of complex all the things that it could possibly do. This is the fifth podcast in a row I've done where systems thinking has come up as a skill that people are more and more looking for. And it's like so funny. I need a bingo card for systems thinking, but it makes so much sense. And I think it especially makes sense from the design perspective. If we come back to just my take on why designers are kind of frustrated and stressed right now is just there's less time to do design, the traditional design process. Things are just moving like engineers are shipping 5,000 PRs a day. And so to your point, this idea of building blocks and design system and just a platform for people to build on feels incredibly important. Totally. It's very hard, but I, yeah, it's like, it's funny. We've had these conversations where I'm like, just do less. Like my encouragement has been do less. Like don't design if you don't have to, maybe there's already an existing system or component or something that we can build on top of, or maybe we don't even need this feature. We actually just need to kind of, like, you know, extend an existing feature. I think that's an important thing. And part of that is like thinking outside of the boundaries. thinking outside of the bounds of what you're working on, right? And thinking across everything, I think, is becoming much more important. And the speed, for sure, I think, is a reason why that's so important right now. Just to follow that thread, because that feels like a pretty big change in the design world. There used to be this, we had a podcast with, she was head of design club code, Jenny Nguyen, and she talked about this, and I think it blew a lot of people's minds. Just, there's been this traditional design process. Prototype, mock, test, use research, iterate. Okay, cool, ready for engineering, build it, iterate, ship it. And now there's just no time for that. And so the role, in her eyes, has just moved to big picture planning, and just like steering people in a good direction. Does that resonate? How much has that has changed in the world of a designer? I think that 100%, we do work that way. It depends. I think for us, it depends on sort of what stage you're at in the sort of process, or maybe how far along the product is. There are certain features for Chad Chibiti where we really obsess, and we really spend a lot of time. We try a million things, and we throw out, you know, we try 100 things, and we throw out 99, and we finally ship one. You know, the, like, or like the composer is like changing every single day, and we try many things, and we throw them out. And you can take that for many different things within Chad Chibiti. And then there are other things like codecs where, you know, I don't know. I mean, a super app is a good example where we definitely are just, like, trying stuff really quick. I think that we really embrace building in public, which is a different way of working, but I think that, like, when you get comfortable with it, it's actually really gratifying or satisfying because you can try stuff and get instant feedback, both internally and externally. But yeah, I mean, it is moving really fast, and I think it just depends, right? Like I said, certain things we really sweat the details, and we try, you know, and we do tests, we do A-B tests, we'll do user research, and we kind of iterate and evolve a lot. And then other things, we take big swings, and then we learn quickly. But yeah, I don't know. I think you have to, like, I think the biggest thing is, like, embracing that the technology might change in, like, a month or, you know, and maybe a certain interaction or setting or whatever that you needed doesn't need to exist, or now a new one does need to exist, or a new capability is there, or the latency profile has changed such that you can, like, rethink this or whatever. All these capabilities are changing, or the intelligence has changed, or... And so you have to be just, like, really quick on your feet, and maybe not be so precious about it until it's at the point where, okay, this is kind of hardened. Like, we don't think that this is necessarily going to change tomorrow because of the technology. So let's make this the best it can possibly be. You know, like, we're thinking a lot about how we should evolve, sort of, really think about Chattopadhyay becoming, like, deeply embedded in, like, your personal life, and how should the app feel. That's something that we're not going to necessarily design and ship overnight, and just, like, put it out there. We're spending, we're really thinking about that, and we're trying a bunch of different ideas, or putting it up on, you know, a whiteboard, or, you know, we're doing some design in Figma, we're prototyping it, we're probably going to dog food a bunch of different ideas long before we ever ship something. But that's a bigger project, right? And then there's other things where we're, like, idea to ship in, like, you know, four hours. This all makes sense. Essentially, what I'm hearing is you pick your battles, and you focus the design effort on the things that will be durable and not change. Exactly, yeah, yeah. And it's hard to know what that is. Yeah. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Mercury. Radically different banking loved by over 300,000 entrepreneurs, and now with Command. I've been a customer of Mercury's for over six years. 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Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group and Column NA members FDIC. So I asked a bunch of people that know you well what to talk to you about. And Joel Lowenstein, who happens to be the head of design at Anthropic, is a good friend of yours, which I love, and he said what he imagines the hardest part of your job is, is balancing the needs of the existing billion monthly active users of ChatGPT with the need to innovate and push and iterate and invent. And so I'm just curious how you just think about that. How do you find that balance knowing you have to cater to both sides? That's a great question. And it's a really fun part of the way we work. I think that we have vastly different audiences, like really, really different. I've never worked in this kind of quite spread. You know, at Instagram, I spent eight years working at Instagram. We had a billion user or billions of users, maybe. I don't actually know what's right now, but it was a lot of people. But the product was pretty simple and it was sort of, you know, a couple ways you could use it. We did think about like creators and, you know, larger accounts that had special needs. But this is like vastly different where you have someone who's, you know, using this to help them come up with a recipe to eat tonight, or, you know, brainstorm their next haircut or something like that. And then there's somebody who's like transforming the way they're doing farming for their, you know, helping to automate their farm in Japan or something, right? And it's just like the broadest spectrum ever. Generally, what we've seen is that we believe in this idea of this sort of capability overhang, where the product, you know, like vast majority of the people are getting a sliver of the true value that they could out of the bottle. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Many, you know, they're still getting tons of value. But we found that like we, you know, make sure to focus on creating extremely simple, streamlined experience for many, many people. And then we put like all of the, you know, cutting edge stuff. We also make sure to give that and make sure that's like really accessible for the people that care. The challenge, of course, is like not necessarily over indexing and sort of like putting that, putting something that people might not understand in front of a billion users. So, but generally what we've seen is we can experiment early with the people that really care. And that's where we have like our desktop app, and we have codecs. And now Chatshop DWork is kind of stepping into a much broader audience, which we're really excited about. And eventually what we want, what we know, and we think about this a lot in design is like, it will true, like, things will truly become like for billions of users when they don't have to like think about a switch or a mode or anything like that. And so we know that like, eventually it has to kind of get distilled into that main experience. But it is like a really fun thing to balance. And we have to think about like people that are using this for free every day to people that are paying us hundreds of dollars and lots of different needs. It's just a matter of sort of balancing. And as a designer, it does add a lot of complexity, for sure, to think to, you really have to have empathy for every sort of different type of user. But it makes it fun, for sure. That is such a mind blowing point you're making about the spectrum of usage of chat GPT and codecs. I didn't think about it that way. Like, is there has there been a product that has such a wide spectrum from just like, with this rash on my finger to building Salesforce, you know? Yeah, and it makes it really hard to, you know, because a lot of it's so funny. Like, one of the big challenges we're always thinking about is this like blank box problem. Right. And people talk about this all the time. It's like, is chat really the final frontier? It's a terminal. It's a glorified terminal. It is like some critique that that I think these chatbots get. And then it's like, OK, so how do you design something that can kind of shape shift into anything? You know, it's like maybe someone is coming here for image generation for fun or, you know, they're trying to generate a PowerPoint or, you know. So having this adaptable interface is like a really interesting design challenge. And it's like sort of uncharted territory because it can really like shape shift into many different tools. And it's this like incredible, so many different things and trying to figure out how to present that. And then thinking about, you know, we think a lot about like a novice user, someone who is sort of brand new to this experience, that we want to help them understand how this can add value to their lives or to their sort of professional work or whatever capacity they're using this in. And then we also want to like get out of the way of people that, you know, use this every single day and they use this as like a real workhorse tool. And so designing for that spectrum is something we have to think about a lot. But yeah, it's all a world of spectrums, I guess. There's a comment that Kevin Wheel, your former chief product officer, made on the podcast that has really stuck with me, which is to your point, people always diss this idea of just like it's just like a chatbox. Why hasn't it ever changed from that, even though it has, but still it's kind of this chatbot. And he made this really good point that what is an interface that is very good at spanning a wide spectrum of intelligence? It's actually just talking. If you think about humans, we talk to people of low IQ to very high IQ. We can all just talk to each other. And it's actually a really good interface for packaging something that is increasingly smarter and smarter and smarter. Yeah. And I think we're seeing what's what's been really fun design space for us is, you know, there's two things we think about. One is like, how do we how can we help you express your intent better? Right, like, we don't want you to have to think about being a perfect prompt engineer. But like, how do we even one teach you that? Oh, this is something that the model can help me with. And then how do we make sure that we get we sort of best understand what you want. And so, like, you know, we recently shipped some features where if you ask sort of an open ended question, it can follow up with, you know, some follow up questions that you can, like, just tap through an answer versus having to type everything out. Right. Or another good example is, you know, so then then once you actually ask it to do something, there's the chat transcript doesn't need to be purely text. Right. We've seen these now evolve so far from what it was with when chat just launched. You know, it's no longer just a pure chatbot. It actually has many features within that. Right. So a good example is what we call writing blocks. You ask it to, you know, write you a letter or an email. And it now contains that that email and sort of a block that you can directly manipulate and you can type with it and you can brainstorm and you can edit little bits and parts of it. You can copy just that. And that has made that interaction much better. And we're seeing the same thing with, like, image generation and creating special tools for that kind of mode. And I think that's where the UI is going to start to really continue to evolve is how do we make if you're if you come at this and you're a designer, maybe chat should actually really look differently, look different or have different affordances. Or you're, you know, a data scientist or, you know, you're using this for to run your home, you know, like your personal life. Maybe it should really kind of work or look differently. So, like, understanding the context and giving you different affordances based on that is something that, you know, we're thinking a lot about. In terms of the vision and future of where all this goes, I know this is always evolving. But is there kind of a sense of what the future of chat GPT codecs is? I know there's this idea of a super app. You talked about voice, this personal assistant idea. What's like a way you think about where this goes long term? I think that it will start to become more and more adaptive to, you know, all of the context of your life. I think proactivity is a big, untapped kind of part of the experience that we're really excited to think about. You know, we're starting to see this with chat GPT work now where it actually has pretty good suggestions based on, you know, your calendar or your slack or these different sort of inputs and external kind of context. I think that's going to become more and more important or kind of shift the way, you know, you use it. I think voice as, you know, we just had a step change in the model that just feels much more natural. And again, like, you know, I can only imagine how that's going to feel in two or three years as it just gets better and better. I think people, I do love interacting with chat GPT, especially voice and like, just I want to just kind of like really quickly say something. And then I think like its ability to kind of go sort of like not just from asking questions, but actually doing things for you. That's all going to change. And hopefully all of this gets simpler as we do it too. Right. You know, when we think of the super app, I think eventually we really think of the idea of especially for our broad consumer base. We do think that there should be sort of this one universal input that you can ask that knows when it needs to answer like really quickly or it should be chatty or whether it should go and like go off and do work for you. And so that's a big like excitement that we can get to is how can we continue to simplify the experience such that you shouldn't have to think about how this works. You shouldn't have to think about what model you're on or what sort of speed you're using. You know, that's like goes back to the balancing the different kind of, you know, personas and user needs. Like, right. Of course, we want to expose that for the right people. But then we want to make sure that we can get a default experience that works great for most people. But, yeah, I think it's going to be really proactive. I do think that we're going to, like, get much richer sort of input through voice and like richer visual outputs that are more interactive. I think that you'll start to build more durable kind of workflows, which actually that you can kind of use over and over right now. You know, a lot of times it feels like you're coming and starting from scratch each time. And we want to really make this kind of the tool that you can use to help you with whatever sort of task you have. That's all sound. what sort of tasks you have. This all sounds wonderful. I can't wait. Just kind of zooming out a little bit, and then I want to talk a little bit to designers again, but you're in this epic role right now. I imagine there's a lot of surprises as you entered OpenAI and took on this role. What's something you wish you'd known? What's something you wish you could whisper into Ian of day one to give you some advice? I mean, so many things. I think, you know, the first one is like recognizing that we're really early. And instead, like, I actually was pretty intimidated coming to OpenAI, if I'm being honest. You know, I remember like, okay, interviewing, oh no, I gotta like, you know, GPT-4 had kind of recently come out, and GPT, like, you know, I was like, what is all this stuff? Like, I was using it, and I was using the stuff, but I didn't feel like I had a true understanding of it. And to be honest, you know, I still have so much to learn. So that idea of like, you are early, we're figuring this out, like that, I think I would want to hear. And the other thing like that I found, you know, and for me, this is more of like a personal thing, it's less about AI or anything, but I stepped into a really different role. You know, most of my career, I've managed, I definitely managed before, but never like at a scale that's growing so fast. And then at a company that is like so different, you know, that the role is just every day was something new. And for a long time, I felt like, I'm kind of like bad at this, or, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. And then I went and like talked to friends that had led like really large design teams, or were in a similar transition as me. And they all felt exactly the same, or the problems that I had were not unique. And so, you know, this is, I guess, yeah, more personal advice that it's like, I think at any stage of your career, there's that feeling of like imposter syndrome, and like, what am I doing? I don't know how to do this. Finding people you can talk to that are going through the similar things, you'll find that there's usually a lot of shared kind of challenges and struggles and having that sort of, whether it's a mentor or just like a buddy that is like impartial and out of it, as was really helpful to me. And, you know, finding that community, I think has been helpful. So yeah, so like that, and then understanding that this is all so new and evolving really quickly. That is extremely helpful to hear. Elena Verna had this really great post, I don't know if you know her, she's head of growth at Lovable right now. She had this great post called Stop the AI Confidence Theater, where she just kind of like, all these people just keep posting all these things they've done with AI and all the ways it's changed their life and it's just, they're killing it, figure it all out. And really it's like very few people, like very few of these things are actually that great and working and it's just like, stop, stop pretending like this is actually, you figured it all out. I think it's much better to be humble about it and be like, wow, yeah, I don't know. This is like changing quickly and like, I'm just gonna embrace it and see where it goes. Yeah, and that connects to what you said was a core component of people that are doing well right now, people that are curious and just kind of poking around and trying to try these things and try them again, because maybe it didn't work now, it didn't work before, now it works now. 100%, yeah, it's like being kind of like, yeah, every model, every new feature, it's like the people that are poking around at those edges, I found are just having such a blast doing it. And this connects to something else Kevin Wheel, former CPO at OpenAI said on the podcast, which has always stuck with me, which is the model we have today is the worst the model will ever be. Exactly, I mean, that goes back to like, when we, yeah, I mean, a new model comes out, what every week, I don't know, every day, like if you count all the labs and everything, it's like, it's changing so quickly and everyone gets better. And I don't know, it's like, yeah, I always try to remind myself, it's like, you know, it must be like what, like, I don't know, building or designing in like early days of computers when like componentry was like really evolving really quickly and there were these drastic step changes and, you know, like you would hit these limitations and all of a sudden those limitations were gone, you know, I think it's the same, right? It's like, these things just change and what was totally broken yesterday now actually just kind of works. So maybe to start to close out the conversation, say a designer is listening to this and they're in that bucket of overwhelmed, anxious, struggling, stressed, feeling uncertain about their future, what's one suggestion you have for them to help them move out of that state and into a better place? Just recognizing that it's a totally rational feeling and it's a great time to just try to explore and see what if I tried working, what if I tried, you know, rethinking about the tooling or what if I just embraced like, oh, maybe I should prototype more, let me try, you know, try using these tools. But again, like recognizing that maybe it helps to hear that I think that we're all still so early and it's still changing and just kind of embracing that, like, just have fun with it and see where it goes and I think maybe another thing I would say is really try to focus on the output, the outcome, right? At the end of the day, we're not here to build tool, like processes, we're not here to like build or token max or something like that, we're here to make great software that people love or great products or whatever it is you do. But that's the thing that really matters and if you focus on that, you know, I think that you'll hopefully find that, you know, these tools can help you do that but you still have a huge role in that as the person that's kind of steering and directing it. So along those lines, I'm gonna take us to a couple of recurring corners of the podcast. The first corner is AI corner. The question is just what's one way that you have found AI to be really useful in your job that maybe might inspire someone to use, say, gHPT or Codex? As like a designer designer, I mean, nowadays I spend less time in the pixels but I really do use it to kind of help me think through broader ideas or maybe like, you know, I'll have an idea at night or something and then I'll just like quickly type it in and have it like prototype something and it'll give me like an idea that I can go and talk to the team about and it'll help visualize something. And so that's like a part of the design process. It's like early ideas or we're riffing through something and I found that Chats with BT, whether it's Chats with BT work or Codex can like really kind of help me visualize that. That's been something that's been really fun. And then I'm like, there's more of the operation side, you know, it's like I have it now, like checking and making sure that like important Slack messages that I need to follow up with are summarized and giving me context before sort of like, you know, important meetings or for recruiting or for all like every part of my process, I use this to kind of augment the work that I do. It makes sense. On the prototyping piece, just to give someone a tip on how to do this, are you opening up on your phone and firing off just like a Codex thread? What's like the mechanic of doing this? Chats with BT work has been incredible because it now runs fully in the cloud, right? And so the idea is you can kind of just be anywhere and sort of like talk to chat and have it like really spend the time and come back with like a really great artifact. So I found that it's been really fun to just be like, hey, you know, we're working on, you know, whatever this thing is, like whether it's helped me think through it or, you know, yeah, sometimes I will just have like some ideas that I would love to see like quickly visualize before I even like take it further and it will just like kind of help me like play with it and try it and stuff. That's been really fun. The fact that it's so accessible, right? Like I might not even be near a computer or I can, you know, I don't know, just kind of like have that flexibility, I think it's really fun. Awesome. Okay, I'm gonna take us to another corner, fail corner. Yeah. So the reason I do this, a lot of people, awesome, awesome people like yourself come on the podcast and all people hear is all the amazing things they've done, all the ways they've been really successful and they don't hear all the times things didn't work out. And I feel like that's very important for people to hear. It's not always up into the right and success. What's a story of a time you failed in your career and what did you learn from that? I mean, there are so many times, I think that, I mean, even at OpenAI, it's like, I think that I've found that I've had to learn every step of the way, right? You know, when I first joined, I remember, you know, not really even like fully understanding like how I wanted to build a design team and, you know, not understanding how to hire or whatever. I mean, just, I sort of felt like I was kind of failing every day, but just kind of like quickly trying to adjust and learn. I think that that, I don't know. I mean, that's like maybe kind of a cop-out answer, but like really just feeling like every day I'm kind of like learning on the go. I feel that my whole career has sort of been that way and that I've never really kind of like planned like any one step in sort of like quickly learning from your mistakes. I've shipped plenty of things that did not work out. And I've also shipped things that, you know, have worked out, but like the most many times I've shipped or, you know, you try something and it's kind of a failure. And, you know, at Instagram we had flops and then we, you know, we'd like quickly move on. I mean, I worked on IGTV, which was like a huge flop and then we shipped reels. And reels was like, and look, I mean, that's a good example cause like we had, we just like kind of baked in some wrong assumptions and we held on to a few constraints. But then we learned from that quickly and we were like, okay, actually let's change that. And then we sort of redid it and then it became a really successful product. And, you know, I've seen that many cases of like, and that's helped, I think that's helped harden me to the sort of critique and feedback of things because, you know, sometimes you get it wrong. Sometimes you try something and sometimes it is just about having to like put it out in the world and work through it and get the feedback and iterate. And I think that that's like the most, more importantly is not sort of what you shipped one time but how you react and how you, you know, how you kind of like fix forward and how you continue to iterate and listen to your users. That's a very common theme in this corner is just people's careers are like, it's mostly failure along the way. Definitely. And so I think that's helpful for people to hear. Yeah. Okay, before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else you wanted to share that we haven't covered? If I could distill it, it's like, I hope that this is just like a really fun time to build stuff. And I hope that we, you know, as designers can be really adaptive and focus on making really fun, making really great stuff. And I think that designers are just like hope, you know, I think great companies are seeking designers and seeking great design. And I've found that to be really true. There probably are gonna be a bunch of companies that will be left behind because they haven't shifted. But I think that there's plenty of room for amazing, great design. And that's gonna be more true than ever. I completely agree. I'm very bullish on design. Yes. Well, Ian, with that, we reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? Okay, yes. All right, here we go. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people? You know, it's funny, I'm not like a big, big book recommender. I think like when people ask me, I do get asked about like books for design. And I haven't found that many that really have stuck with me, like purely design. Although I will say, I do love The Design of Everyday Things. I think that's like such a classic. That's the one, that's the one I've always talked about. It's not like, yeah, it's not a unique recommendation, but it is just kind of a classic of thinking about how we think, how I think about design. Yeah. You have to read it if you're in tech or not in tech. Yeah. Awesome. Anything else there or should we keep moving? We can keep moving, yeah. Let's do it. Favorite recent movie or TV show that you have really enjoyed? Okay, so I have one that actually is not a movie or TV show, but it's a, I'm in New York. I just saw a Broadway show called Maybe Happy Ending. Yes, I've seen it, love it so much. You saw it? Yes. Oh, you saw it? Okay, yeah. It was so unique, right? And of course it kind of hit home a little bit because it's about these like super intelligent humanoid robots and like, you know, but the production was incredible. The set design, everything about it, I thought was like so unique. Which was, I thought, yeah. So if you have the chance to see it, I thought it was really, really good. I also just saw The Invite, which was, I thought, have you seen it? Yes, also love it. It's so simple, but so good. That's what I loved about it is it's like so simple. It's like, it actually is like a play, you know, and it's just four people in one kind of beautiful apartment and the set design's amazing, but like the writing, everything about it was like incredible and it's just kind of a wild ride. And I wouldn't have, knowing nothing about it, I thought it was incredible. Excellent taste, sir. I love both of those so much. And The Invite just came out, it's in theaters right now. Yeah. Next question, favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love? I feel kind of like a typical Silicon Valley person recommending this one or something, but I did finally switch to an EV after having many cars for a long time. And I got a Rivian and I don't know, they just, I do respect the design a lot of just kind of how they've really made it. Just all of the, like, I think, you know, probably Tesla's similar, but like, there's a lot of assumptions that how, operating a car should work or I've gone away, you just walk up to it and it unlocks, you know? It's like, you just like, you don't have to like turn on and off the car and it's cool to see like that evolving. Of course I love, you know, at Waymo's are probably, if I could like own a Waymo right now, that is the most magical experience in the world. And I'm waiting on bated breath for that to happen. I'm waiting on bated breath for that to be broadly accessible for everybody. Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to in work or in life? Not necessarily, other than I think it, like kind of trying to sum up, like how I felt about all of this is like, have fun with it and like, just try stuff. And, you know, I think don't feel like, I've never felt like you have to fit into a specific box and know. specific box and know that it's perfectly all right to be very fluid about the way you work or the way you think about things and be flexible and adaptable. But yeah, it's not quite a life motto, more of a vibe of just trying to have fun with it and build great stuff. I should shift this question to what's just the vibe. What's the vibe that's been helpful to you? Because I love that. It's very Sam Altman in terms of you can just build stuff. Exactly, yeah. Okay, last question. Something I love about your career history, if you look at your LinkedIn, you were a designer at Groupon. I love that you were at Groupon and now you're heading design for essentially super intelligence. What's something you learned at Groupon that is maybe helpful these days building super intelligent AI? I love that. Groupon was a really fun company. Andrew Mason was like a really incredible CEO and just that he brought such character to the product. It was like kind of a brand-led product. There was like a comedy team. There was like a writer team, but they were like all comedians basically. And the product really did not take itself seriously, at least in its early couple of years. It didn't take itself seriously and I think that the brand really stuck out, right? You weren't signing up for Groupon because of course the daily deal was great. You were getting like 50% off something, but people loved that email because it was like really well-written and it was funny and it had character. And I thought that early on, the company did a really good job with brand and sort of embracing that side of things. And I think the other thing, if I were to carry that forward is I found that every company that I've worked for has such unique DNA and the way you have to work kind of maybe changes a little bit based on that, right? So Groupon was run one way, then I went to Instagram, which was like this very design and creativity focused and Kevin Systrom was really like an incredible designer and he sort of saw himself or like worked in that way with us, which was really cool and it just created a different way of working. And then you have like Sam Altman, who's like a completely different way of operating and he's like, I think, and then opening up in a research lab. And so learning that companies have these really different DNAs and understanding how to sort of embrace them and kind of leverage that to your, or help kind of like empower that or like, I guess, lean into that has been something that I've learned a lot from moving around and getting the opportunity to work at very, very different companies. And also just to add to that, it's also important to realize you're not gonna change that. You're not gonna like come in and change that culture because that's very hard, especially if it's very founder oriented. I think it's about finding like, oh, wow, like at OpenAI, yeah, sure, like we spent more time, at Instagram, we definitely moved slower and I would say that we changed the product less and that actually worked really well for most stages of Instagram. But I don't think that that would work in the current stage of where we're at with OpenAI and that way of working. Of course, I bring a lot to that and I think like, at Instagram, we have this motto, like do the simple thing first and we always use that and we really embrace that. I've tried to carry that through to the way I think about building product at OpenAI, but that's not the only way I think of working. Sometimes it's actually not necessarily the right way to think about. Sometimes we actually do throw some things out that we're still experimenting with. And so just being really, I found that having to be flexible and yeah, not necessarily trying to change it, but trying to kind of like help round it out maybe. Ian, what an incredible place you have in the world right now, just being on the inside of such cool technology, such cutting edge stuff that's happening. And I feel very fortunate that you found time to chat with us and share what you're seeing, where things are heading. Two final questions. Where do you wanna point people, if you wanna plug anything and how can listeners be useful to you? Where do I wanna point people? I mean, I think that please, I guess you use, have fun with the stuff we're making with Chat GPT and Codex and fire away feedback and thoughts. I'm on Twitter. I love to talk with designers about all sort of stages or not just designers, engineers, PMs, whatever. That's probably where I'm most sort of reachable and accessible. And how can you, yeah, I think to be useful again, it's like, I love when people do show off the way they are kind of working and how that's kind of shifting. And that's like a great way for us to learn how we can build better products, both like internally at OpenAI, but just as a design community, like maybe showcasing a little bit more of our process because it is becoming a little bit more opaque. Like, well, how is it working? Just, I think sharing that is like such a gift to the community. So doing more of that. Also pointing people to your website, which I have here now. And I think my face is probably changing colors because the site has all these crazy colors. So if you go to iansilver.com, you could see this insane website, my personal website. Yeah, that's a deep dive into all of my past work. You can see there, yeah. And the trick is you, yeah, you'll have to discover the Easter egg where there's a game involved. That's right. See if you can set the high score. Yeah, this high score is out of control. I don't know what's happening. Someone's found a cheat code. Ian, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for doing this. Buddy, this was awesome. Super fun. Same. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.