The AI paradox: More automation, more humans, more work | Dan Shipper

The last time you were on this podcast, you had this hot take that people were sleeping on cloud code. You were so unbelievably right. The premise of this episode is we're going to go through what else you predict will happen. The AI jobpocalypse is not really a thing. I am super, super bullish on PMs and full stack designers. You guys are hiring double than people in the past year, which is not what people would have expected from a company that is so AI forward. I'm simultaneously extremely AI-pilled and very bullish on humans. Automation is a lie. Every agent needs a human. We have so much automation, so much AI, and I also work way more. Creativity. It just feels like it's going to be more and more valuable to stand out from all the slop that people are shipping and launching constantly. What models do in general is they make yesterday's human competence cheap. And so it becomes commoditized. It's not valuable anymore. What humans do is we go in there and we're like, yeah, we have all this frozen human competence from yesterday. How do I use this to make something new and interesting? What are some predictions for how the way we work is going to change? It's going to bifurcate in two main ways. One is everyone's going to have at least one agent that they talk to that they can offload work to. Second is that most of the work that you do is actually going to happen on your computer in an environment like Codex or Cloud Cowork. What you're predicting here is the SaaS tools will run within Codex or Cloud Code. I think the SaaS apocalypse is dumb. I would buy SaaS stocks right now. What agents do is increase the number of users of SaaS, not get rid of it. A lot of people are moving to CLI and trying to work from the terminal. We speed ran the CLI era. It was nice while it lasted, but I think CLIs are over. Today, my guest is Dan Shipper, CEO and founder of Evry. Dan and his team are building maybe the most AI-forward startup out there, and as a result, are very much living in the future of how work is going to look as AI becomes a bigger and bigger part of our day-to-day. Everybody at their company, including every non-technical person, uses Codex and Cowork and Cloud Code to get much of their work done. This is why, way before anybody else, Dan saw the rise of Cloud Code and what is now Cowork, which he predicted almost a year ago when he was on the podcast last time. I asked Dan to come back on the podcast to share his current biggest predictions for how work is going to change over the coming year for most people. We chat about what work will look like at most companies at the end of this year, how the shape of the work we do will change, and who will do best in this coming future, slash what you need to be working on right now. Hint, hint, product managers and designers are going to do very well. Dan makes a lot of bold predictions and many quite contrarian takes that I was not expecting him to say, and we are going to revisit this conversation exactly a year from today to see how much he got right. Before we get into it, do not forget to check out Lenny'sProductPass.com for a free year of the hottest and most well-crafted AI products in the world, available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Dan Shipper. Dan, thank you so much for being here. Welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure to be with you. The last time you were on this podcast, you had this kind of, it was almost like an offhand hot take that people were sleeping on cloud code, and in particular cloud code for non-engineering work, for just like fixing files, sorting your hard drive, just all these things that people hadn't thought about. Nobody was talking about this. This was a year ago. You were so unbelievably right about this. It's just like unreal what has happened since then. They built Cowork, which was this whole, they built on this very specific idea using cloud code for non-technical work. Codex is getting into this now. I imagine you've been seeing this. They're like leaning into this non-technical use of basically coding agents. I feel like this has also been a big part of anthropic success over the past year, just like how to non-technical people use this stuff. So you were just so ahead on this stuff. I even wrote a newsletter post building on this idea. I'm like, hey, this is interesting. I should dig into this. I asked people how to use cloud code for non-engineering work, and I just had so many examples, and it's like my second most popular post. So clearly you have a unique glimpse into where things are heading. So the premise of this episode is we're going to go through what else you predict will happen in the future, how things will change for people building products. And I think it would be helpful to start with giving people a brief glimpse into just how you operate and how your team operates. That gives you this unique lens into where things are going. So just give us a sense of how you work. Thank you. I really appreciate the introduction. And yeah, I think one of the things about predicting the future or the way that we think about predicting the future at Every is that what you don't want to do is prognosticate. What you want to do instead is just live in it together. So everybody at Every is an AI early adopter. We're almost 30 people now. I think when we did our interview, we were 15. So we've doubled in size in the last year. We're all early adopters, and we have engineers, we have designers, we have writers, we have editors, we have salespeople, we have customer service people. And everybody has a little bit of that. Whatever that thing is where you're just like, I like to explore. I like to experiment. I'm very curious. And I'm super all in on AI. And what that does, I think, is it creates this little pocket of the future where we're all living in it together. And we get to be a little bit further ahead because at any other company, there's a mix of people. There's early adopters, there's the middle of the pack people, and there's people who are very anti. And another thing that happens, which is really cool, is we get to, because of our role reviewing models and being a little bit of a tastemaker in AI, we get access to stuff before it comes out. So we get to beta test and alpha test and help steer the direction of where things are going a little bit, which is very, very cool. And so when I think about predicting the future, it's actually, when you create an environment like that, it's actually just about noticing what's going on. And I think a core part of it, too, is writing about it. I think articulating what you're noticing, articulating the future brings it about in this way that makes it real for you and your team and then anybody else who's on the internet who's reading it. And so the Cloud Code thing, it's this very organic thing where, for us, we tried Cloud Code when it came out. That's our job. We try all the new stuff from the model companies. And at the time, it was a little bit early. But right around, I think, Sonnet 3.5 or Sonnet 3.7, we were testing that to do our vibe check on it. And we were like, holy shit, this is crazy. They got rid of the code editor. And so from that point on, we just basically, at this point now, we run six software products internally. At that time, we ran maybe two or three. And from that point on, we just started shifting to a world where no one was looking at the code. Everybody was talking to their computer in English using Cloud Code in the terminal. And so I was able to see, ooh, this is starting to happen. And then because my job is a little bit to just push and play with stuff, I was like, I wonder if I could use this for my writing. How could I do that? And then it just starts to unfold. And you're like, OK, this is not ready yet. But it's obviously useful for me. One of the things that we talk about internally is what I call the reach test, which is like, when you wake up in the morning, do you reach for it organically? I love this combination of you are using the latest stuff. And I think this is, as you said, maybe on underrated skills, you're good at being self-aware of here's what's weird and new and different and interesting. So that's a really cool combination, partly because you have to write about it and you write about it. So I think that's the perfect recipe for someone having a sense of where things are going. This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, WorkOS. 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WorkOS allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to WorkOS.com to make your app enterprise ready today. So the way that I'm going to structure this conversation, there's going to be basically three buckets of predictions. One is how the way we work is going to change in the coming years. Two is what the shape of the work we're going to be doing is going to look like and change. And then three is who is going to be most successful in this future slash what should you be doing and working on now to be successful in this future. Lenny, my only ask is we come on a year from now and then you score it. I want to score it. Okay. So this is a year from now. Okay. Okay. So is this, that's actually, is this like your predictions for in a year, this is what it's going to look like, or this is like the emerging future? I think, like, I don't, I will probably say I don't have like an exact timeline. I think most of the stuff that I'm going to talk about will be pretty apparent within a year, but it probably, it may, it may take longer than that, but I think it will, it should within at least a year be like, not obviously wrong. Like it should seem like it's moving in that direction to count. Okay. May of 2027, we will review your predictions. Amazing. Okay. I love this. Okay. So let's dive in. What are some predictions for how the way we work is going to change in the coming year? One of my favorite questions, because I think if you look at the benchmarks, you're just looking at, okay, like, yeah, AI is going to just take all of our jobs basically, you know? Meter has this really cool benchmark where it's like, it measures how long it can, like, the newest models can do tasks autonomously. And it's like, oh, it's like, it can, uh, uh, what's it called? Oh, myth like mythos preview, the like big anthropic model that everyone's like so worried about. It can do tasks of 17 hours at 50% accuracy. It's like, holy shit, that's crazy. And I think it is real. It's true. And, and, and the, the progress like model progress is, um, going up exponentially. And my experience and my feeling is that we will look back in a year and, um, say we actually have a lot more work to do. Humans have a lot more work to do, um, even as models get better at doing work. And there's like a really interesting paradox there. And my prediction for the, uh, like how, how work will my, my big prediction of how work will change or how you will be doing work in a year is it's going to bifurcate in this in two main ways, how you, how you use agents. One is you're going to be doing, I think like what we figured you would be doing like five years ago when we thought about how work with AI works, which is everyone's going to have at least in their company, at least one agent that they talk to that, uh, can do work that they can offload work to. And we'll talk about like what that looks like, but it's essentially like open claw. The second is that most of the work that you do is actually going to happen on your computer in an environment like codex or cloud co-work that becomes the sort of operating system for, it becomes a sort of operating system for how you do all of your work, whether that's your email, the documents you create, like all that kind of stuff, it's going to be on that kind of a surface. It's that's becoming the clear competitive landscape. So there's, I want to go in order of those two. So the first one is you're going to have agents you delegate to probably in Slack, but you know, anywhere. First thing that's interesting about that one is it's not clear what the architecture is going to be like for that. Is everyone going to have an agent? Is every team going to have an agent? Is it going to be like just one agent? Is it like, do agents specialize? Is there, is this like parallel shadow org chart? And when open claw first came out, everyone internally and every adopted it. And I was very convinced that it would be a, everyone has their own agent. And there's like some real, really interesting things about that world of, you know, a parallel, a parallel org chart agents in that world sort of become little reflections of you, which is like really cool and really interesting. It's like, if you ever, did you ever read the golden compass? It's like having a little diamond on your shoulder, you know, that's a little part of your soul. I really think like, that's sort of what it looked like was happening. And so I was very into personal agents and I have completely flipped. And I really think that the model for now is going to be a super agent, like one agent for the entire company. And you're starting to see this in some companies. So like Shopify very famously has one, ramp has one now. And I think there's some like really interesting reasons for that. I actually still think that the personal agent thing is coming, but what we found is there's all this hype with open claw. Everyone's like, I'm going to set it up. It's so cool or whatever. And then everyone realizes it's like way too much work. This thing breaks all the time. I got to like fumble around with it. I got to be able to SSH into my server and like blah, blah, blah. And most people to do work, at least just don't want to spend that time or can't. And the like fundamental underlying thing that drives that is whether it's open claw or any other harness in order for an AI agent to be useful right now, it really needs a human who cares about it. It really needs a human personal connection with someone who's like watching what it does and make sure that it's doing the right thing and that it's useful for people. And the minute you like sever that connection. So the minute someone's like, I don't want to like maintain this like dumb open claw is the minute the agent is like not really that useful anymore. And that's why I think it has started to shift to a more one agent per company model. Because for now, like the ideal is you basically set up a forward deployed engineer or someone with that sort of profile who's responsible for making sure that that agent is working for the whole company. And then maybe you have some like some little team agents. And I think as the models get better at being more independent, that will like shift down and it'll be more likely that we'll have more personal agents because we won't have to fuck around with all the internals. But the model that I see working for us and for a lot of other companies, including the model companies, the model companies themselves are starting to see this is when it comes to the sort of like async agents, it's really a, you have one agent at the top that's like doing, sometimes it's everything. A lot of times it's a particular kind of job that you've decided that everyone in the company needs an agent for like data requests. And then I think it will start to, it starts top at the top and then it sort of starts to trickle down where you make it more specialized agents and teams and all that kind of stuff. And the mechanism is agents need to And the mechanism is agents need people who care about them. That is so interesting, that point about you need to like garden your agent because there's context you have to keep adding to it. There's like, it breaks, as you said. And it's just like, once it's just too much work, you're like, okay, forget this thing. I'm gonna go back to Codex or Cloud or something like that. Exactly. Okay, cool. So this is a cool opportunity. So the idea, so what you're predicting here is companies will have this super agent that everyone can talk to. I said, Shopify's got River, I think it's called. What's the ramp one called? I can't remember. Okay, it's probably got a funding. Okay, so that's the prediction, okay. That's the first prediction. That's the first prediction. We will start with agents at the top that are more general and are used by more people in the company. And then it will start to kind of grow down as people get more used to these use cases, they get more specialized, and agents become less, less fiddly, like they just work better. And is this mostly gonna be in Slack, do you predict? For work, yeah, it seems to make sense. I think people love having the green bubbles on OpenClaw. Like, sorry, the blue bubbles on OpenClaw, like if you can use it with your iPhone. But I think there's this little thing in people's heads where they really like to keep their personal and work agents separate. And I think there's a whole territory. Our COO, Brandon Gell, calls this computer errands. There's like this whole territory of using personal agents for your computer errands. It's like, order my groceries or whatever. And it's like, there's so much of that that I think it's gonna be huge for. But I focus, we focus mostly on the work stuff. And I think that's gonna happen mostly in Slack. Sweet, go Slack. Should we, do you wanna talk about the other work surface? Absolutely. Codex, co-work, okay. Let's do it. I'm so excited about this one. I think it's the coolest thing. So basically what happened was Anthropic realized at some point that with Cloud Code, if you put an agent on your computer and it runs on your computer, it has everything, it has access to everything that you have access to. It uses the terminal, so it has like basically super powered access to it. And not only that, it really, these agents really understand how to use the terminal because there's so much content online about that. And it created this like super powerful coding paradigm, which is, Anthropic was really doing it first. OpenAI for a while was, in my opinion, like very, very behind on this. And then in my opinion has surpassed them recently. It's really interesting. But they were very early on this. When people were still thinking about coding agents or coding models as being really pair programmers, they were among the first to be like, no, and do it successfully. Like there were people before them like Devin, who I think had the big like cloud environment and OpenAI tried this too, but the real adoption seems to have happened when you put it on your computer. So they figured that out. And then I think they figured out along with their community that once you have a coding agent on your computer that can build anything, it's actually really good for any kind of work you wanna do. And people started just hacking cloud code essentially to do all their work. So Anthropic then built Cowork, which is a little bit of a nicer wrapping around cloud code, but it's fundamentally the same thing. And then I think OpenAI made a couple of different bets, but their main bet on a programming agent was the earlier versions of Codex were like very technical and they were like super smart, but they were like a little bit autistic. Like it was a little hard to, they didn't quite get what you meant. They got exactly what you said. And I think maybe like three or four months ago around the time that they launched 5.3, they started to move in this direction of, oh no, we get it. Like it's, this model is fast. It's like really good for general purpose, knowledge work type tasks. And then they launched the Codex desktop app. I think the Codex desktop app takes, if you look at all the lessons that like Anthropic learned, they went from cloud code to Cowork and you can kind of see that in the tabs on the Anthropic desktop app UI. I think OpenAI was just like, we see where this is going. Like, let's just skip to that. And so I think Codex right now, this is a horse race. Like they're gonna have different positions, but I think Codex right now is my daily driver. I like spend all my time in it, basically. I flip the cloud every once in a while, but I think they're getting the paradigm right. And it's clear to me that whoever is in the lead, because again, I think it'll change. Whoever's in the lead, it feels very obvious to me that all of the work that you do is going to be in one of those surfaces where, for example, when I'm writing a document, Codex has a browser in the app. It has an in-app browser. And when I'm writing a document, I just go into one of my Codex threads, which I have one thread for every project. And I just open the in-app browser. I go to the document. I usually do it in Proof, which is this online markdown editor I built. And then I just have Codex running and watching me in Proof. And Codex can see what I'm doing. I can see what Codex is doing. It's all kind of in one place, which is an extension of the same thing that made Cloud Code work really well originally. And I basically feel like I have this parallel work buddy that not only can it respond and write in the document, but then it can go do research. It can use my computer to basically do anything that I can do on my computer. And that's incredibly powerful. And I do this with everything. I've been at Inbox Zero for 10 days straight now, which, if you know me, is crazy. I'm never like this. And that's because I literally just have Codex, gather all my emails with Quora, which is our email agent, and then it renders a little page. And I think I showed you this at the Anthropic event. It renders a little page, and I just monologue into it and just talk at each email. I'm like, okay, go research this. Oh, here's a question from our lawyers. Can you go collect all of the documents from the last four years and then put them into a report and send them? And it just does it. And so all the stuff that I would procrastinate on, I don't really procrastinate on anymore. And so I feel like there's this, for a long time, I thought too, that the optimal experience of AI was gonna be, take AI and put it in a browser. And I think the reverse is actually starting to happen and be really, really valuable in a way that I did not expect, which is take the AI agent that you use all the time on your computer and put a browser in it and do everything you're doing. And that is just like a magical combination that I think will be, is very uncommon now. You can't even do this in Cloud Code because they don't let you browse external websites inside of Cloud Code. So it's very uncommon now, but I think it will be super common in a year. This is more profound than it may even sound. What I'm hearing is instead of AI being baked into SaaS tools, what you're predicting here is the SaaS tools will run within Codex or Cloud Code. That is one really important second order effect of this is, okay, so yeah, like I'm using Proof or really any website, maybe PostHog or whatever. And I'm doing it inside of my agent and the agent has access to the website. So it has access to everything that I have access to and it has access to my whole computer. When I run the agent on that website, I'm using my tokens. I'm not using the vendors tokens. I'm not using the apps tokens. And so it puts SaaS back in this place where, yeah, you want to make it friendly for an agent and everyone's got a CLI now. You want to make the HTML really usable. You want to make sure that what, anything that happens in the CLI shows up for the user immediately, all that kind of stuff. There are a lot of issues to deal with. But once you do that, you actually don't really need to think about having an AI surface that's primarily going to be the thing that users use in the sense that you don't need to build an agent necessarily into your product. I think you can. And there's another really interesting bifurcation of this that we should talk about, which is that having two agents is better than one. But I think for now, there's this really cool thing where with Proof, for example, anyone who uses it, I don't pay for tokens because they're just bringing, they bring their AI to Proof. And so it changes what you build as a SaaS company. And you build it now for both humans and agents to use at the same time. And it changes your margins back to, well, I don't really have to pay for tokens anymore because the user is going to bring the AI. So I think this is a huge deal. So what you're describing here is more and more work that we do, more and more professional work. Is it just going to happen within Codex or Cloud Code? Where does Cursor fit into this? Is that, is there potential there? That's a good question. I think that Cursor sees a lot of the same stuff. And there, and in some ways they have some of the same stuff, but it's better. Like I think that Cursor's cloud implementation is better than either OpenAI or Anthropx and is more advanced. And I think that Cursor has, at least so far, more distinctly chosen a lane. Like they're more distinctly choosing to be four programmers and that may limit how far they get in here. Like, I think the definition of programmer is expanding enough that they'll have a big market, but I don't know that they're going to jump into like, okay, use this to make a slide deck or whatever. But it is really clear that every model company is starting to realize how important it is to have a harness to get the most out of the model. And so where all the platforms are moving is to a world where you're not just doing prompt and response. When you call the model on the OpenAI platform, the Anthropx platform, they're literally like running the model on a computer that is in the cloud that they run and then giving you the result out of it. And they know that in order to get the best results of the model, they need to offer that. And so you see Anthropx got cloud managed agents. OpenAI does not have a response yet, but I assume that that's going to happen. And now Cursor was just essentially acquired by SpaceX. It's not like a full acquisition, but it's close. So I think people are starting to realize like, I can't just do the like model part of it. I have to have this like harness above it. And I think the ultimate form of that harness is like, I can do any kind of knowledge work. Cursor itself feels like one of the things that it's going to be a hard decision for them, whether to stay just for coders or not. So people building products that aren't OpenAI or Anthropx, if this proves to be true, the prediction here is they're going to be using your product over time inside of one of these agents. Is there something you would do if you were one of those companies to prepare for that future? I would just prepare for that. So like, you know, for example, every more classic piece of productivity software, whether it's Slack or Word docs or PowerPoints or whatever, it's really mostly meant for a human to use. And now people are doing CLI. So it's like meant for an agent to use independently of a human. And we're moving into this new paradigm, I think where the human and the agent are on the same piece of work together and they're both doing things and you need to have, I need to have visibility into what the agent is doing. The agent has to have visibility into what I'm doing. We have to go back and forth in this sort of like seamless way. And the kind of software that you make for that is going to be very different. So for example, like there's a lot of stuff that Proof doesn't have. I don't have to have a lot of the like Word document kind of like formatting or page breaks or like, you know, making tables or whatever, because the agent just does it. I don't need to worry about that. It can do all the formatting for me. So you can make the products a lot simpler and faster to start than the legacy products are. And then there's all these other affordances that you need to start to have because the way agents interact with software is very different. So for example, agents can do a lot at once. They can just do like a billion different things to your document or your slide deck or your code base or whatever. And how you display that to the user is gonna be very different than the way you might display a human being concurrent in your document and doing stuff. You need like approval. You need a sort of inbox that sort of summarizes, here's all the stuff that's going to happen or has happened. You need logs and the ability to roll it back real quick. So there's all those kinds of considerations that change the actual product. And then the underlying UX of it or the underlying infrastructure you need is different too, because, you know, agents can make a billion requests in like three seconds. So how are you gonna deal with that, right? This is exactly why, you know, GitHub is having problems right now because the number of people using GitHub is skyrocketing exponentially. And it's really just people's agencies in GitHub. So I think it's this whole new world that is just starting. You're just starting to see like a little peek of it, but there's so many cool things about it. So for example, in Proof and some of our other products too, when someone has a problem, they don't email support. Their agent sends a bug report. And an agent bug report is way better than a human bug report. It has like, here's exactly what I did. Here's the exact repro steps. Here's like Proof is open source. So here's what I think is going on in the code base. And then we just get that. It becomes a GitHub issue. And then we can just like send off an agent to fix it. And you can't do that with everything, but it's so much better. And you can see the like the glimmers of this very fast, like closed loop between I ran into something, a paper cut, a little feature I want, a little bug. And my agent just goes off and talks to the company agent. And then the company agent just goes and fixes it. That I think is incredibly cool. So as a part of this that you, a lot of people are moving to CLI and trying to work from the terminal. Is that part of this prediction that people shift away from that and back to actually UX with agents kind of running alongside them? CLIs are over. We speed ran the CLI era. It was nice while it lasted, but I think it's pretty clear. Sorry. It's not that CLIs are going to completely go away. Obviously they've been around for the last like 30 years or 40 years or 50 years or whatever. They will continue to be around. And I think there is this moment when cloud code was like so popular or when cloud code was really starting to gain in popularity that people were like, the thing that's working is the fact that it's the CLI. And I don't think that's what it is. And when you move into an actual UI for this, you start to realize we made GUIs for a reason. And it's just nicer to be in a GUI and you can get all the same benefits inside of a GUI, especially for non-programmer work. But I would estimate that definitely the majority of the technical people inside of Every are not using CLIs anymore as their main work surface. I think a lot of programmers are still flipping into it every once in a while, but it's more or less they're using codecs, cloud code, cursor, that kind of thing. Awesome, okay. I definitely wanted to make that part clear. So coming back to kind of the big picture of the prediction here, there's kind of these two modes of work. here, there's kind of these two modes of work that you're anticipating. One is this kind of super agent within a company that you chat with through Slack, most likely, that can go off and do work and answer questions. And then there's on your computer running Codex or Cloud Code. And within that, all the work that you normally do kind of on your computer is now going to be living within Codex or Cloud Code, or maybe some third party that emerges that we're not even aware of yet. Yes. And you're going to use apps inside of the internal browser of those, of those tools. Wow. Okay. Like, listening to you talk about it, it's like it may not feel as profound as it is, because this is a big change to how we work. We don't currently have an AI that we talk to regularly in Slack. And we also don't work currently mostly in Codex or Cloud Code. So this is actually a pretty massive shift. I think so. Is there anything else along these lines before we get into our next prediction? Well, a few things. I'm definitely not an agent maximalist. Like, I really think we're going to have a lot of different agents that we use. Seems pretty clear to me. And I really do think that two agents are better than one. So that's a good example. When I have Codex interact with another agent, it can give so much more context about me and what I want I would be able to type. And it can go back and forth talking about things that would take a long time for me to express directly to an agent. That you get this, like, speed up effect when you assume that your users are using Codex or Cloud Code or co-work as their basic way they access your app. And a really simple example. We have this hosted Open Claw product, which we had on waitlist. We actually had to pause it because we started doing all the waitlist and Open Claw is just a very hard agent harness to make work. It's like it's moving so incredibly fast. And if you're like a platform for it, it's like when things break, you can't fix it. It's very hard. But one of the things that we learned in that process is, let's say you're building an agent product or any new software experience. What you would assume, let's say to set up an agent, is you need to build a little web interface or a little Slack workflow that asks people about, okay, like, who are you? And what are you going to use this for? And like, what's your ideal, you know, dream outcome or whatever the things you are that you would put on an onboarding checklist. If instead you just make a hard line of we are only going to service users who use Codex or co-work, what happens is you just paste something into you just paste a prompt into Codex or co-work. It goes and talks to the app and the app can be either just a regular server or it can be its own agent. And Codex has so much information about you that it can just give it, here's all the stuff I've been working on with Dan. Here's all the ways that, you know, he might want to use this app and then bring it back to me. And it's this very custom experience. And also for a technical product, like an agent, when something goes wrong, I can just tell Codex, go fix it. And Codex will go talk to the app and figure out what's going on for me. And so I think the whole paradigm starts to change when you assume that everyone's got an agent and those agents are talking to other agents in this like really magical and important way. There's a couple more things I want to touch on before we get started. There's like so much to talk about. One is you made this point about SaaS tools not using like you can use tokens from the model companies basically when using a SaaS tool. Talk a bit more about that because that may change the business model for SaaS companies in the future. That feels like a big deal. Well, I think it actually may save their margins because right now all these companies are rushing to like add an agent to their offering and thinking, oh, the agent is going to be the main way that people interact with me. And I think that and that costs tokens, obviously. And I actually think once I have Codex or Cowork as my main work surface, I still want to use SaaS. So this is another good prediction. I would buy SaaS stocks right now. I think the SaaS apocalypse is dumb and SaaS stocks will be up majorly in the next couple of years. Not investment advice, but I would buy SaaS stocks. So I think it saves your margin because now the way that you're thinking then is not I have to build AI into this. It's more like I have to make a piece of software that humans and AI want to collaborate on together. And that's hard. But once you build it, it's a lot cheaper than assuming everyone's spending tokens. And I think it's a good business. And part of the reason I'm so bullish on SaaS is A, everybody internally here is, like I said, we've all got agents and we're all using Codex and whatever. And we still pay for a ton of SaaS. And our SaaS spend is up year over year. And we're not like vibe coding every single like little thing. And I think that what agents do is increase the number of users of SaaS, not get rid of it. And so I think SaaS companies are going to see like an insane spike in the amount of demand that they have, because there's going to be tons of agents using these products at like a very high volume. And like I said, that's a huge infrastructure challenge. There's a lot of like interesting pricing challenges, but it makes me very bullish on SaaS. I love that. If anything else comes out of this conversation, Dan Shipper, SaaS is the future of AI. B2B SaaS. Hashtag send tweet. This is quite contrarian. And the other interesting piece is that the fact that you guys are hiring that you doubled in people in the past year, which is not what people would have expected from a company that is so AI forward. Talk about your experience there of just, okay, we still actually need humans. Automation is a lie in the sense that every time you automate something in order to make sure the automation is working well, you need a human on top of it, like making sure that it's working well. And so I wrote this piece a couple of years ago about the allocation economy, like the idea that the way that humans are going to work with AI is going to be like being a manager. And the thing that you have to remember about managers is like managers actually spend a lot of time working. Most managers are not like on the beach. They're like checking in with their employees all the time and trying to figure out, okay, how do we make this work good? How do we make it better? How's it doing? How's this person doing? All that kind of stuff. And I think there's some differences between being a human manager and being a model manager, but fundamentally it still requires a lot of time and attention. And I think that we kind of miss that in the model discourse. And one of the reasons is benchmarks make it look like AI is more autonomous than it is. And by autonomy, I mean something specific by autonomy, and I'm going to try to express it. It's like a little hard to express, but I learned this for myself because I've been feeling this paradox a little bit. I've been feeling the like, we have so much automation, so much AI, and I also work way more. And I think part of the paradox, part of the paradox started to like resolve for me a little bit when I made my own benchmark. So I made this senior, it's called the senior engineer benchmark. And it's like, how good is AI versus a human engineer? And the way that I built it is, again, have this app proof. I just vibe coded it on the side and like while running the rest of every, and when we launched it, because it was completely vibe coded, it just started going down and I couldn't fix it. And it was very embarrassing. I had a lot of egg on my face. And the product worked. We tested it internally. We had a lot of beta testers, but the day after launch, it was just every 10 minutes, the servers would go down and people were looking at me and I'd be like, I don't know what's going on. Codex, fix it. And Codex was like, I don't know what's going on. Or really Codex was like, I do know what's going on. I fixed it. And then it would cause four other errors. And then you're just going around in a circle and I wasn't sleeping. And I vibe coded so hard, I got bursitis on my elbow. So that's a, there's a life lesson in there. Vibe code or elbow. So anyway, I got actually two different senior engineers to fix it independently. So I have two different rewrites of the code base that tells me how they did it. Right. And so what I get to do is when we get new models, I just give the new model a prompt. I say like, this is vibe coded slap. If you wanted to rewrite it from first principles, how would you write it? Go do it. And all the models until GPT 5.5 got like a 30 out of 100. And senior, like a human senior engineer gets like high 80s, low 90s out of 100. So there's a lot to go. And then I tried GPT 5.5 and it got like a 62. And mind you, the 60 score was GPT 5.5 using an Opus 4.7 plan. Opus 4.7 plans are very good. GPT 5.5 is the only model though that has the sense of agency and confidence to just like rip out old code and just like actually rewrite from first principles. Other coding models, they kind of like try they like end up papering over the edges or around the edges. And they're like, oh, this is a big job. Like I'll just do a little patch. And you're like, no, I like specifically told you not to. So GPT 5.5, there's like a 30 point bump in the score. 60 out of 100. It's like very, it's very clear that in a year or less, it's going to be senior engineer level. Right? And that gives you a certain picture in your mind, especially based on how I named the benchmark, which I think a lot of benchmarks do. And I can tell you that when we get to that point, it will be very easy for me to change the benchmark to zero out the current model. So that gets a zero out of 100. And so for example, it seems like there's no skill or no thought into the prompt, which is this is vibe coded slap, like fix it from first principles. But actually it took me a while to get to a prompt that didn't give away the answer, but got the model to reveal what it's capable of. And the original prompt I gave it was the original prompt that I gave it when I was trying to fix the issue and production was going down, which is like, I'd woken up in the morning. And I was like, okay, we had four or five reported issues yesterday. I want you to go through all the issues and then come to make a plan for how to resolve all of them and go do it. Right? And every coding model on the market, and I'm pretty sure, here's a prediction. I'm pretty sure every coding model on the market will still do this in a year. Every coding model on the market will take that instruction seriously. And if I tell it, here's a bunch of issues, go fix it. They will just go try to fix the issues. What an actual human senior engineer does is they go look at the code base and are like, this is a piece of shit. This guy doesn't know what he's doing. And then they say, we're going to have to actually rewrite a lot of this. And it's going to be hard and risky. I know you all want to hear that, but we're going to have to do that. And if you asked the model, hey, should we do that? It'll probably get there, but it's not going to do it on its own. And there's a lot of incentives pushing against it doing that. And even if it does that, there's always a higher frame for us to go. And so I think it's really important when we think about benchmark progress to think about it from that perspective, which is benchmarks rise on problems that we've framed that we can articulate, that we can score. And there's a lot of work that's human work that it can't be scored until you write it down. But the act of thinking to prompt it or write it down is something that you can't measure, but kind of means that even if the benchmarks get saturated, it doesn't mean the same thing as you totally replace all senior engineers. And I think it's why, even though the models are getting better at automation, I still hire engineers. I am so excited to tell you about this season's supporting sponsor, Vanta. Vanta helps over 15,000 companies like Cursor, Ramp, Duolingo, Snowflake, and Atlassian earn and prove trust with their customers. Teams are building and shipping products faster than ever thanks to AI. But as a result, the amount of risk being introduced into your product and your business is higher than it's ever been. Every security leader that I talk to is feeling the increasing weight of protecting their organization, their business, and not to mention their customer data. 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So I did not have a human write the code all by hand, because I actually think that that's sort of, it feels silly to me. Like I don't really care because I know if an engineer is not using AI, like I'm not going to work with them. I don't really care. It's like, it's sort of like, am I going to race a human against a car? Like I probably wouldn't do that. But I would race a human in a car versus another human in a car and say which one's better. And in this case, the way the benchmark is structured is, yeah, human engineers used AI, but they used it in a way that I could not because I didn't understand it and I didn't have time and I didn't really want to go in and try to understand the code base, to be honest. And I think that's a really important thing when we think about benchmarks is AI is a broadly distributed technology that any human can use. And when we are benchmarking against humans, AI against humans, we're actually really always talking about one human using AI versus another human using AI because AI doesn't use itself. It may be able to in this like slightly, somewhat recursive way, but there's in any real use case, there's always a human like pretty close to it, making sure that it's working. Okay. I want to try to wrap up our first bucket. There's so much to talk about. I made a little list of things that I think people should do based on your predictions to be successful. We'll talk about this at the end too, but just a few things. One is start using codex or cloud code more and more for the work you're doing, and especially the browser and use tools inside of it. Two is allow agents to use your products. If you're building a SaaS tool, make it easy for agents to be okay. make it easy for agents to be a user, essentially. Three is start thinking about some Slack bot that you can work with, like try out tools. Like I know Slack has their own Slack bot that I think is really good too, and I haven't played with it, but people really like it. So look for, I guess, a tool that could become the AI agent within your company. Buy SaaS stock ASAP. Not investment advice. I think that's totally right. I will, like my slight tweak is, when you're thinking about building your software for agents, the current model is, I'm building a CLI that an agent uses, but they're using it in a sort of like, they're being, I delegated a task to the agent, the agent's using the CLI, and where I think it's going is you and the agent are using the app together. The agent's probably using the CLI, but you're using the web interface, and they both need to be in sync. And that is, I think, a new challenge that's really interesting. Awesome. Anything else before we get to our next category? Buy SaaS. That's the title. Oh man, okay. So the second category of predictions is around just the shape of the work that we're gonna be doing is gonna change. What do you predict? There's all this interesting stuff in terms of the shape of work. Once you're in this land where you've got these, you've got async agents that you delegate work to, then you've got your codex, cloud code, work surface, that starts to happen. So one thing that we see a lot internally, and you also see this in the big model companies, is the number of pull requests that you get skyrockets. We have people in consulting, or in ops roles, or whatever, or editors just making pull requests. And A, that's really cool, and it's a very different shape of work where you can expect that a higher percentage of your company or your users are gonna be doing things that previously only technical users could do. And what that does is it creates all this pressure on the other end for the people who have to deal with all of the new code for how to deal with that. And so I think there's a lot of interesting things that happen with that. So for example, like OpenClaw, I mentioned that earlier. Pete gets thousands of pull requests a day on OpenClaw, and then he just spins up 50,000 codex instances and then sorts through them and then merges 1,000 of them. It's really crazy. I actually think that that's going to be more and more common. There's like, it brings up a lot of really interesting questions around which pull requests should you merge. And whenever you add capacity in one part of your process, like it breaks things. It used to be really hard to build things, and now it's very easy. So the point is not, can we build it? It's like, would it make sense with the rest of what we've built? And how do we keep a sense of a coherent whole? And also, what do we delete? I think Anthropic does this really well. Like they delete a lot of stuff from Cloud Code to make sure that it's not bloated. So I think there's a lot of that gonna happen. On one side, there's a lot of, non-technical people can do technical work, and then technical people are in charge of making sure that that work gets into a product or into a process in a cohesive, coherent way. And also their product people are gonna be doing that too. And I think that's quite cool. Something I'm hearing from people is that now that everyone can do everything, like engineers can design, PMs can code, marketing people can ship stuff. There's just this confusion about what the hell is my job anymore? What am I responsible for exactly? Am I supposed to be shipping stuff? Am I still a marketing person? And it's just creating a lot of confusion and uncertainty in the world. Just a comment. I think that's for real. And one of the things that I think is special is everyone is sort of a generalist and really loves having their fingers in a lot of different pots or whatever the metaphor is. I think that'll probably settle down at some point, and it'll feel more normal. Like, marketing people are still gonna do marketing even if they're touching the website. That's just part of marketing now. But I also think that you can get a lot further being a generalist now, and that's really cool, especially for smaller companies. The other thing that I think is interesting is there are definitely some new job roles that are a thing. And the thing that is becoming really clear is the whole forward-deployed engineer concept I think is for real. And it comes out of every agent needs a human. Like, you go to the big model companies, they have these agents that run internally. They have teams of people that run these agents. And I don't think those teams are going away. The models are gonna get more powerful, the agents are gonna get more powerful, and the number of agents is gonna grow, but people are still gonna manage them. And so that looks like a very specific kind of person. And we have a couple of those people internally here, and it's like the people who are in charge of making sure your agents are working and doing the right thing. We also do consulting, so we lend that out to people, and I think that's a big thing that people want. And it's another one of those places where you're like, hmm, automation was supposed to take away jobs, but it looks like it just created one, or many, you know? And there's a specific type of engineer that really loves, you know, Nitesh, who's one of our, who fits this. He's an AI engineer, and he fits the sort of forward-deployed category, and he's on our team. He spends most of his time actually talking to one of our agents in Slack. We have an agent internally called Claudie, which runs our whole consulting practice. And he spends a lot of time in Slack. Like, there is code, and he is using Cloud Code and other things like that, but a lot of it is just talking to it and being like, why did you do this dumb thing? Like, let's fix that, you know? And so there are certain kinds of engineers that I think love that and love having their hands on the latest thing, and also love making this like being that's like in a workspace, and it looks a bit different than more traditional, building more traditional software. And your sense there is we're not near a place where these agents don't need a human. You've said that so many times now, that agents need a human, and there's kind of like the setup part, and then there's the maintaining it forever part, and it feels like both are important, is what I'm hearing. Like, this is gonna be a job for a long time. AI is not gonna get smart enough to just automate it, be fully automated for a while. Yes, I'm simultaneously extremely AI-pilled, extremely, and very bullish on humans and the role of humans in making sure that AI is working well. Interesting. Okay, so the two kind of buckets here that you're talking about, one is like the way I think I hear what you described earlier, is just the pace of shipping software and everything is just increasing, which also means there's so much more work reviewing all this sloppy output. I was just talking to a data science friend, and he was saying how his team is just, his data science team is just, their job used to be do analysis, answer questions, see if this experiment was a good, was positive. Now it's just, everyone's doing that, and they're sharing their results, and they're like, no, this is not correct. And most of their job is now reviewing bad data science work. Which is a problem, and it means that, and the same thing is happening with engineers, and it means that you need more, like you actually need that engineers for this, and you need data scientists, and it means that you haven't set up the appropriate systems or agents to help you with this. So like, the way that it works inside of the big model companies, for example, like at least one of them has literally a data science bot that every single person in the org can query, that is hooked up to their data warehouse, that knows who's who, so that it knows at the warehouse level, like who has permission to access what. And so all of the basic questions, because there's a team that sets up this bot, all of the basic questions that people might wanna ask that it sometimes gets, that might get wrong, that they're constantly making sure it's getting it right. And so the data science team doesn't have to answer all the like bullshit questions, because there's another team building an agent that is set up to do that really well. But if the team didn't exist, the data scientists would hate their lives. Yeah, it does though make the job maybe less fun, because you're just sitting there, you know, gardening people's sloppy work. Well, that's what I think is like, it can actually make the job better, because for the data scientists, you're now not dealing with all the silly requests, you're dealing with the deeper questions that are harder for the team who's dealing with all the basic requests and building an agent to do that. It's like filtering all that stuff out so you can focus. Here's a question I've been thinking about, I was not planning to talk about this, but it's something that I've been thinking about. The question is which product tech role is the least changed now? So like engineers, 100% of code AI now, it's like a completely different job. Product management, a lot of the PRDs, you don't have to write as much, you can ship code, you don't have to wait for people. Design, the whole design process, dead, according to a recent guest, just like there's no time to do the whole design process, very different role. Data science, very different work now. There's marketing, there's sales. So here's the question, what do you think is the least fundamentally changed role so far? Well, one interesting thing is, I don't know if this counts, but like CEOs and investors, it seems still very, very optional whether or not they use this stuff. It seems that way. I think the opposite is actually true. Like my experience, and we do a lot of this with senior executives and senior leadership teams, my experience is that your company's only going to go as far as your CEO goes in AI, and it's not something you can delegate. You have to have your hands in it, otherwise you don't have an intuition for it. But for a long time, it has seemed like, yeah, that's something that the people who are doing the work have to do, but like, I don't have to do that. Like I'll just tell them what to do. And so I think if you're a CEO, you kind of can get away with your day looking very similar. I think that will change rapidly at some point where it'll be like, oh no, I'm like way behind. But for now, because, or maybe even middle managers, those kinds of people, I think it's fairly similar. I think like maybe sales, because it's so in-person. That's my vote. It's sort of creeping up in the kind of BDR, like we can deal with a lot of BDR type queries. You're only talking to people who actually want it. And you can do, for sales, it's so useful to do research. My favorite Codex, like one of my favorite Codex experiences is we're hiring a head of L&D. And I, you know, we always put out a job post, whatever, but I was like, I feel like there's this company called General Assembly in New York, and they do like, they've done really good technology education for a long time. And so I was like, I feel like someone who is into, who worked at General Assembly and is now into AI would be really good. And I just like literally typed it into Codex and then like went off and was doing something else. And I came back and it found like this, the perfect guy. It was like, worked at General Assembly, was an instructor, like is super AI-pilled and follows me on Twitter. So I just DMed him and then I had dinner with him. And it's like, that's crazy. You know, that would have taken so long before and super valuable for sales, for recruiting, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, sales is where my mind went. Like the top of funnel, AI is helping a lot with sourcing and qualifying things like that. It feels like the work of a salesperson is not fundamentally different. Yeah. And customer support's fundamentally changed. So that's interesting, sales, so far so good for those folks. Okay, so maybe just summarizing some of the predictions in this bucket of just like the shape of the work, how it's gonna change. What I'm hearing so far is, should be a lot more reviewing of other people's output as a part of the work. And then two, there's gonna be a lot of like almost babysitting of AI agents to make them do the thing you want them to do for deploying and then just gardening them along the way, make sure they continue to do their work. Anything else before we get into our third bucket? I would sort of split it into less babysitting agents and more your forward deployed team is trying to build a whole system that makes it so that people who have less knowledge can build a whole system without like doing something dumb. And that's like a really interesting engineering challenge. I think babysitting kind of makes it feel like it's, yeah, you're just kind of like, you know, waiting for it to fuck up and then fixing it or whatever. And that can be the case, but I think a lot of it is this extremely interesting engineering challenge of building a system to enable everybody else in your organization to do what used to be a technical job. And then if you're not one of those people, like you're the data scientist or whatever, you can go a lot deeper with AI into like really important questions that eventually probably filter into the work that the forward deployed engineering team is doing, but is like more generative and more new and you're dealing with harder questions. One last thing that I think is really interesting is I think that we will be reading way more AI generated writing in documents and emails and we will like it. And I think we are already doing this in coding where we read plan documents. Like I don't want an engineer to hand write a plan document. That would be very silly. It would be obviously silly. And I think the same is true. You know, when we did our quarterly planning for every, at the end of 2025, we did it all with notion agents and we just had a bunch of notion agents and we had really one notion agent and then we had a top level company strategy. And then we had everybody in the company just talked to an agent and it asked them about what happened last year. How did it go? What were your goals? What do you want to do this year? What are your metrics? It pushed back. And then it was like, how does this relate to the overall company idea? Like all that kind of stuff. And then I got these like incredibly good AI generated like strategy reports or like quarterly plans for each part of each team. And then I could go in and be like, who's like, who needs to talk to each other? Like which teams need to talk to each other that like don't know they need to talk to each other. And, you know, who's, which one of these is like actually low quality or which one of these is high quality? Like all that kind of stuff, it makes it a lot easier to process. And I see that all the time now. Like I consistently get AI generated stuff and there is a difference between an AI generated document that's slop and not. And the slop one is, it took them less time to make it than it takes me to read it. And they don't stand behind every line. So my expectation is, if you send me an AI generated document, I think that's great. And if we talk about it and it's clear you have no idea what's in it, like big no, no. Not allowed to do that. And I think we have this, this aversion to AI generated stuff that will go away because the kind of strategy document that GPT 5.5 can write when it's directed well by someone on my team is way better than like them just like dinking and dunking. than like them just like dinking and dunking like their fingers on the keyboard. Right, like most people are really bad at registering for documents, the bar is low. Yeah, and same thing with email. Like most of my email is written by GPT 5.5 and Codex right now. And I honestly would prefer it to say that it's coming from GPT 5.5 and I may change it to do that. But I had this experience the other day where I had to send an email to one of our investors and I asked Codex like, go do it. And like Codex knows to ask me and it usually does but this time it didn't. And it just sent the email and I didn't look at it at all. And I was like, fuck. And so I went to my sent and looked at it and I was like, oh, this is exactly what I would have sent. And so it's like, it's pretty close to that a lot of the time. It can be like a little over formal and there's a couple of things that, it's just when you really think about it, most of your email is kind of, it's not, it's kind of rote. It's kind of prosaic. It's kind of, I definitely want to be the one to think about what it should say, like what it should say, but the actual sentences don't matter that much to me. Usually, sometimes I do a lot. And this has come from a writer. Like I care a ton about writing. I think that human writing is incredibly important and I expect we only publish human writing. Well, actually we publish a mix of human and AI writing, but we always label it. Sometimes it's nice to have an AI coauthor on certain things. I absolutely think that human writing is important. And I think that the reaction or the aversion to AI writing is silly. It's such an interesting lens on that because when people think about AI writing, I think about social media and videos. And your point is internally, if you're just like working on planning and documents and email and things like that, like that is much less scary that it's AI written. And to your point, people are already doing this. You almost prefer it a lot of times because people are really bad at doing this anyway. We have this too for external stuff. Like we publish all these guides and the guides are often agent, they're agent assisted and the agent is a coauthor and they're intended to be read both by humans and by agents. And that's because like, if you're writing a huge informational thing, I mean, you do this all the time, in order to like really apply it, the best way to do that is just like have your agent ingest it. And remember the next time I'm doing pricing to like remind me of this guide and we'll go through it together or whatever, it allows you to operationalize the ideas much better and it allows you to go much deeper because agents can read like 10,000 pages in like a second. And so you talk to the human about the story and the stuff that matters and the core ideas and the agent has all the details that it can then apply for you when you need it. Awesome. Anything else in this category before we get into our final category? No. Okay, let's do it. So the final bucket is just, who will be successful in this AI future that we are approaching slash what should people be working on to be successful in this next year or two? I am super, super bullish on PMs. And I know that your audience will probably love that. But my anecdotal case that has convinced me of this is we have this guy internally, his name is Marcus and he runs Spiral, which is our writing app. Marcus is a PM by training. He previously ran Axios, Axios is writing product and was a PM and had a big team and it got to tens of millions of revenue in ARR. And he took a year off that job and just got super AI-pilled and just learned how to use cursor basically really well. Now I think he uses cloud code, but he was extremely cursor-pilled for a long time. And he's, I would call him like lightly technical. Like knows what a database migration is. Like if he has to look at the code, I think he can understand it, but he's like, we never could have hired him to do this job even a year ago. But the coding models have gotten good enough that he can pair the kind of the technical knowledge that he does have with his really spiky product sense and sense for writing and sense for users. And it's like, it's so dangerous. Like he ships faster than almost anyone on the team. And he has such a eye for every single thing or every single user, every single conversation. Like what does it mean? And how do we collect it into a story about like where we want to go next and what are the issues we need to fix and like all that kind of stuff. And I think that he feels liberated because he doesn't have to organize a whole team of people to do that. He can just do it. And it's super impressive. And it makes me very, very bullish on any PM who gets like really AI-pilled. Music to my ears, Dan. You're making a lot of very happy listeners here. I've been saying this for a long time too. It's just like the skills you need to build are the things like the building now is done for you. What do you need to be good at? Figuring out what to build, figuring out if it's great, figuring out what problems to solve. So I love that you're actually seeing this come to fruition. I really believe it. This could be the highest rated podcast episode of my whole podcast. They're going to be like, hell yeah. It's going to be okay. Stas is back. PMs are back, you know. This is the most contrarian episode I've ever done. So, okay. So the other people that I think are going to be like super, superpower people. And again, this is because we see this internally is full-stack designers. If you're a designer and you're in these tools all the time, you're so used to, okay, I make this beautiful interaction and the engineer like just doesn't want to do it or it doesn't like happen the way I think it should happen. Or, you know, there's all this stuff. And I see so many designers for us internally or externally where they now feel so empowered to like go build stuff. Because they're like, I have all these ideas to make things look amazing and these interesting interactions. And that's the exact thing that it's really hard to do with vibe coding, because it just all looks the same. So it all looks like slop and they can make stuff that looks so different. And now they can actually build it. And what you see when we work with them internally is now they're just like, they're just making pull requests. Like they don't, they don't have to do it. They don't need to hand it off as much. Sometimes they do. But like a lot of times they just make pull requests and it's like, the thing is built and that's it. And I think that's incredible for the way that companies work, but it's also, there's a huge opportunity for those people to become entrepreneurs and like start their own thing because they can make stuff now. And I think designers are such creative people. And I think AI is like a super tool for anyone like that. I so agree. Even though there's cloud design, there's all these AI designing tools. Once you see it, you're like, that's definitely cloud design. The creativity, to your point, it just feels like it's gonna be more and more valuable to stand out from all the slop that people are shipping and launching constantly. So I completely agree. It's interesting that designer roles, I do research on the job market and interestingly designer roles have not grown in a while. So I'm waiting to see if that becomes a big trend, just like we need more designers. That is really interesting. We'll see. We'll see, we'll see. That might be a way to predict this is are people hiring more designers? I don't know. That is interesting. Yeah. All right. So PM designer thriving. PM designer thriving. I also just think generally the AI jobpocalypse is not really a thing. Absolutely, we see companies starting to reorganize and I think that makes a lot of sense. I think to be honest, a lot of the reorganization, you can say it's AI, but it's like we overhired and the company's not doing as well and all that kind of, it was coming and this is a good excuse. But the mass unemployment thing that some AI CEOs are talking about, I think that's not gonna happen. The pattern that I see so far, and again, I don't have a total crystal ball, but I do feel like we've seen enough of the new model drops to have some sense of how this is going, is that what a new model drop does or what models do in general is they make yesterday's human competence cheap. So what I mean by that is they ingest all this data of what has happened already and they make it really cheap to deploy that in whatever situation you want as your own, right? And what happens then is this is a new power that everyone has, so it gets adopted super rapidly and suddenly that stuff is everywhere. Suddenly anyone can make a landing page, there's new landing pages everywhere. Suddenly everyone can write, there's like slop tweets everywhere. But what's interesting is because it's all from, because it's all coming from these models and everyone's using basically the same models, it all looks the same if you use it in the most default basic way. And so it becomes commoditized, like it's not valuable anymore. And what humans do is we sort of go in there and we're like, yeah, we have all this like frozen human competence from yesterday. How do I use this to like make something new and interesting? And I really think that structurally because of the way the models work, because of the financial incentives of model companies to like make them compliant and aligned, structurally, they're always going to be trailing behind those people who are taking the models and using them to make new expertise or make new things that haven't been done that way before for their very, very particular situation. And that stuff is going to get incorporated into the models. But again, it will create room for people to push further ahead. And I think that you see this in a small way in like pretty much all the jobs is like engineers. Suddenly everyone's an engineer. That doesn't mean we fire the engineers. There's like way more demand for engineers because you need the engineers to like figure out, okay, this is all slop. How does this actually, how should this actually go in our code base? And I think that's something that the benchmarks rising doesn't really capture. And it feels like a thing that will take a long time to change. People may be hearing in this prediction here of just, okay, the job apocalypse not gonna, people are not going to be all fired. There's going to be human jobs remaining for quite a while. It may be almost too comforting because you probably have to change the way you operate to still have a job in the future. Do you have any sense of just like, here's what you need to do to not be one of these layoffs? Yes. And I think that is actually super important. The only thing you need to do is ride the models. And that means use them for whatever it is that you do. You know, we've talked about how Codex and Cowork are becoming the sort of standard operating system for work. If you're just doing that, and when new models come out, you're trying them and figuring out, now there are new powers, how can I use them? Instead of just being like, I'm gonna like try to ignore it because it like makes me afraid, which I think is honestly, it's rational. It's a reasonable response. And also if you ride on top of them, they extend your powers in a way that doesn't leave you behind. Like you're part of the future and part of the way work happens. And I think that we're going to need people doing that for a very, very long time. I like this term, ride the model. So what's like, say a new model comes out, what do you think someone's say working at, I don't know, Salesforce, say a PM at Salesforce, what should they do to ride the model? Well, one of the things that's really interesting is a lot of companies like handicap their employees from even doing this because like, I don't know what model, I don't know if you can use the latest models at Salesforce. You know, like a lot of times you have to wait or it's, you know, whatever. So maybe you have to do it in your off time. But the thing that I really like to do with new models is play. And there are certain things where I know it can't quite do it yet, but when a new model comes out, I like always turn the rock over again to be like, can I do it now? You know? So it, you know, it could not do the senior engineer benchmark last time and I turned it over, turned the rock over again and now it's at a 60 out of a hundred, which is like really good. So the way to ride the models is like not one specific thing because they're always changing, but it is to be curious and playful to apply the model, the new model to whatever it is that you care about, whether that's your job or something outside of your job and to keep turning over rocks because it may not work now, but it may work eventually. It probably will work eventually and the way that you use it matters. So what's really cool is that I think people think of the edge of AI as being in San Francisco and I actually don't think that that's where it is. I think the edge of AI is wherever AI meets like a real human doing something because the people in San Francisco, they're making it, but they don't actually know a lot about how to use it. They don't know, or at least they don't know everything about how to use it. They need to see how other people use it. And so you, whenever a new model comes out, you get to be one of the first person, one of the first people in the world to discover what it might be useful for. And that's, it's like a new discovery. And I think that's why, for example, we're in Brooklyn, but I really think of us, and I think we are like quite far ahead of people in San Francisco because we just use them for everything. And if people, if people do that consistently, I think it's gonna be very hard to lose. That is one of the most amazing things about AI right now is no matter how much money you have or little money you have, you have access to the most advanced AI model. Like it's not free, so you need some money, but like, and you can get it immediately when it comes out. Maybe the only people that have an advantage are the people working at OpenAI or Anthropic, but otherwise it's just like available. I know I was at their event with you, their Code with Cloud event with you last week, or a couple of weeks ago, and they're like all using Mythos, and I'm like, oh, goddammit, it's so annoying. But I think that's totally true. Like that is, if IBM had invented AI, you can bet it would not be like this. And it would be like a bajillion dollars and only like the top companies could use it, and they would be using it in the weirdest, most uninteresting ways. And I think there's, it's really important that AI was built in America and in the Silicon Valley culture, that's like we wanna make intelligence too cheap to meter. Like that's not the default stance. And it means that everyone has this broadly accessible tool that they can use, and I think that's amazing. That's such a good point. And interestingly, it's also created the most fastest growing companies in history, the biggest companies in history. That's true. Not a way to win. These Silicon Valley guys, they're smart. If I zoom out on the conversation, it's really interesting. There's kind of these two sides to the coin. One is, not a lot is actually, like so much was not changing. SaaS continues, jobs not disappearing. We're still emailing each other. We're still working in Slack. Like a lot of the work not changed. On the other hand, every role transformed. Engineers don't write code. PMs don't write PRDs. Design and design, you know, it's like, it's so interesting how much has changed, and how much has not changed. I don't know. It's interesting that people think it's gonna be this whole new world, but in many ways, it's okay. It'll continue the way it is with a lot of stuff around the edges. That's how I feel. Like, I'm simultaneously so excited, and it feels like everything has changed, and I'm so bullish on it, and the progress that we're making. And in the land, the progress, we're making all that kind of stuff. And yeah, I just I feel like there are there are these things where they're going to be pretty similar to how they are. And that's probably good. And I think generally, our intuitions about the future, the the model that I have of what our intuitions are about the future is the intuitions that people had in the Middle Ages about like, what happened at the end of the horizon, you know, it's like, are there dragons like does it drop off into nothingness or whatever, you know, like, a lot of people have a lot of deep intuition that there's something terrible going to happen over the horizon. And also that some people are like, there's something incredible, it's gonna change everything, we're all going to be happy as a utopia. And what happens is you get there, and you're like, there's some really cool things, there's some not cool things. And it's just another horizon. And I think that's, that's the way to think about the future. And until you get to that place, where you're starting to see it, and I think we get to see it because we get to see it internally all the time. It's important not to let your, your mind get away from you and being like, this is going to happen. And this is going to happen and whatever, because you're going to tell a story that sounds sounds so real in the moment, but later on, you're like, actually, it's much more complex than that. And somewhere, it's sort of a both, everything's changed, and nothing has. And once you get there, I think you're sort of starting to see like, oh, yeah, this is a real thing. Part of it is the AI companies are very good at scaring us about what might might happen in the future. And I think that's actually shifting, I think they've realized maybe we should not freak everybody out about the dangers. That PR strategy just does not make any sense to me. I do think that it's like genuine, but it's so ineffective. And I think it's also wrong. How about we end with maybe just like a few things listeners should do to be successful over the next year with the way the world is moving? By the models, I would try all of your workflows in codecs or co-work and see how that works. And if your company doesn't let you do it on your own time, I would try out some of these agent products like OpenClaw or Hermes or for less technical people, there's like Victor, we have one plus ones, I would get comfortable with both of those ways of working and try to like, try to have fun. I think there's too much of I'm doing this because I have FOMO, like it might I might lose my job or like I might miss out on this big thing or whatever. And the best way to actually figure out interesting, useful things to do with AI is to like do something enjoyable. We had Nikhil Singhal was on the podcast and the way he described it is you got to find your moment of joy with AI once you find like, wow, I can't believe AI did this for me. This is awesome. We're going to keep building stuff. Yeah, I agree. So if you haven't seen that yet, then it's just like try solving it. The thing I hear a lot is just find a problem in your life or work and see if AI can do it. Go to Lovable. Go to Cloud Code. Try to build the thing. And often it's like, holy shit, this is so cool. Dan, is there anything else that we haven't covered? We've gone deep on so much. Is there anything else you want to share? Anything else you want to predict or just say before we get to a very exciting lightning round? I think we covered it. We did a lot. This is this is awesome. And I'm very excited to see how well or poorly I do in a year. And I hope that you hold me to it. We're going to have AI score us. How about that? Great. Well, like a dance prediction series. Well, with that, Dan Schipper, we've reached a very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? I'm ready. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people? Obviously Annie Dillard. Everyone and every has to read The Writing Life, like when you join, you get a copy and you have to read it. You only have to read the last chapter, though. I think the last chapter is incredible. And it is at the intersection of writing and technology and the future and it's like its relationship to the future and to time. And I think that's like it's it's everything about every like wrapped up into like a very tight chapter. It's so good. And I think Annie Dillard just generally is fantastic. What else do I recommend? I'll just I'll just tell you a couple of things I've read that I like really liked recently. And whenever I like something, I always just like tell everyone about it. So I have recommended these a lot. I I've been I've been reading one of the things I learned, which I didn't know, is Churchill is a really good writer. And he has a whole history of World War Two that he wrote. And it's like a combination of history and memoir. And I think that's so cool because he was there, you know, he did it. And there's something about what we do it everywhere. I feel some like sort of kinship with that of like, we're building stuff, we're writing stuff. And it's very rare to find people that also do that. And so Churchill's history of World War Two is fantastic. I just finished the first volume. I'm on the second volume. The Nazis just invaded France. It's very captivating stuff. So that's one. I also just I've been on like a little bit of like a quantum physics like kick recently. AI is very, actually very good for quantum physics if you get into it. And there's this book called The Rigor of Angels that I just finished, which is it's a history of ideas that relates Heisenberg, who has the his uncertainty principle, Borges, who's like an Argentinian fiction writer, wrote a bunch of great short stories are actually starting to get like a lot of play now because they're very AI related, and Kant. And very cool, like super mind blowing, lots of like interesting overlaps with AI stuff. And yeah, highly recommend. I feel like we got a whole podcast episode about your reading and books you recommend. I know this is a passion of yours. My current obsession is The Power Broker and I think we talked about it when I was visiting you. It's just so good, never ends, but it's surprisingly compelling to read through the history of New York. OK, second question. What is a recent movie or TV show you recently enjoyed if you have time for TV? So I've been watching a lot of basketball, so that's one. I became a Knicks fan like this this year. So that's really fun. But I recently watched this, I guess it's like a it's like a miniseries documentary called The Dark Wizard about this guy, Dean Potter, who he was like Alex Honnold before Alex Honnold was Alex Honnold. And he just has this like very extreme personality where he's like free soloing everything. And then he's like, you know, base jumping and in like a wingsuit and stuff like that. And it's sort of exploring his psychology and what happened to him. And I don't know, I kind of like stuff like that. Like there's another one called 100 Foot Wave, where it's like about people who are trying to like big wave surfers. There's something about that that sort of, I guess, just reminds me of Founders or whatever. The Dark Wizard, highly recommend. Is there a product you recently discovered that you really love? Codex. It's like it's the best. It's really good. It's really good. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life? Yes, I have several. Like the core one that I wrote for myself in college was do things worth writing about and write things worth reading. And then there's this guy, Rob Rubea, who's like very popular in like, you know, the AI meditation, like overlap discourse, which is also a big thing. And who I also, I really like him. He's dead, but I think he's amazing. And I've listened to like so many of his talks. And there's like this one talk that he gives where it's just like one sentence, but he just talks about like when you're dealing with stuff that's hard, what you want to do is be able to relate to it from a position of spaciousness and strength. And there is something I think really interesting and important in that, like a lot of the meditation discourse are just generally like, how do you deal with hard things? It's like a little bit more of like the David Goggins. Like you just got to like, just got to like go for it kind of than like just and sometimes that sometimes that can work. And also, I think sometimes when you're dealing with things, so for example, when you're dealing with I'm super afraid of like how AI is going to, you know, change my job. It is it has been very helpful for me to be like, am I coming at this from a vantage point of spaciousness and strength? And if not, can I like get there? Because it will be much more productive for me to deal with it from that place. And that has been very, very helpful for me. Wow. I love that. Well, our final question, just on the theme of this conversation. Curious if there's just like an AI tool that you think is still kind of underrated that you're just like recently. I mean, like, I. Don't say Codex. I hate to say this, but I have to because like any anyone who knows me, like we were at this this conference recently, an Anthropic conference. I'm like telling like Boris and Kat from Cloud Code, like you have to try Codex. And it's it's just really good. And the things that you can do with it are so different, especially if you're using it with the in-app browser to do things like your email or check your check analytics or like anything like that. And it has completely transformed the way I work. And I would be doing you a disservice if I like was searching for something else, because is that good? Damn, that's wild. Do you feel like Anthropic can catch up? And or is this just like, well, they do. Oh, yes, I think I think they can. I like like I said, I think it's going to be a horse race and and different people will be ahead at different at different times. But I think right now OpenAI has like has has gotten back the mandate of heaven a little bit. It's been it was a rough couple a couple months, like six months or so, but I think they're back. Interesting. And and you'd switch if one became. I would. I would. People people it's funny. People are like, oh, are you like sponsored by OpenAI? And I'm like, no, I just like talk about what I like. I was super loud about Cloud Code when that was the thing I really liked. And I'll just say what I like when when it happens, you know. And to your point, people like there's a lot of value in using both for different things. So there is I switch back and forth. I truly do still use Cloud a lot. Yeah. Such a big market. Well, Dan, we did it. We went through so much. I can't wait to revisit this in a year slash get this out so people can start planning for this next year. Two final questions. Where can folks find you and every what should people know? And then how can listeners be useful to you? You can find me on X at Dan Shipper, S-H-I-P-P-E-R. And you can subscribe to every please subscribe to every every dot T-O every dot T-O slash subscribe. How can listeners be useful? You know, have fun with AI. Like, seriously, it's it's super fun. There's like a lot of it's not necessarily useful to me, but like it's it makes it I think it makes everything better when people put their hands in it and just like start figuring it out together rather than like arguing about it. And so the most useful thing you can do is like find ways to use it well in your life and share it. Dan, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast dot com. See you in the next episode.