Why chasing the algorithm leads to burnout with Mark Rober

With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One NA member FDIC. This episode is brought to you by Walmart Business. Here's something I've seen over and over in high-growth organizations. The leaders who actually transform how their teams operate aren't the ones with the biggest visions. They're the ones who ruthlessly protect their team's time and attention. And yet so many of us are still losing hours to the basics, like procurement, ordering supplies, chasing down purchases that should just happen. That's where Walmart Business comes in. It's built to simplify your operations. A huge assortment of business products, everyday low prices, and fast, reliable shipping and fulfillment. You can manage all of it on your schedule. Online, in-store, or right from the Walmart Business app. It's Walmart, built for your business. Get your team focused on what actually moves the needle. Sign up for a free Walmart Business account today at business.walmart.com. This episode is sponsored by Study.com. Life can be messy and complicated, and it can be hard to work towards finishing your college degree when other responsibilities get in the way. Luckily, Study.com is designed to help you earn college credit online and on your schedule. They offer over 220 online college courses that help students make progress towards completing a college degree in a flexible and more affordable way. Knock out your general courses like English, math, and history, and study on your phone or computer for just $95 a month. Study.com courses are fully online and self-paced and designed to transfer to over 2,000 colleges and universities. It's a great way to earn your college degree at an affordable price and on your own schedule, so life doesn't get in the way of your education. Go to study.com slash podcast to browse courses and get 10% off your first month when you sign up. That's study.com slash podcast. This is what I tell people when, like, they wanna be, I wanna start my own YouTube channel. I was like, great. There are, like, a thousand great reasons. There's only two really bad reasons. And the two really bad reasons are to get rich and to get famous. Because you'll never be rich enough, and when you get famous enough, you're like, why did I ever want this? Mark Rober is one of the most successful creators on YouTube. His channel has almost 75 million followers and over 16 billion views. He has posted once a month for 15 years. Each one is carefully built, deeply thought through, and driven by his own curiosity. His goal is to help people, especially kids, fall in love with science. Mark is an engineer and a scientist by trade. He spent nine years at NASA and then five years at Apple. And somehow he's brought that same patience and rigor to YouTube. When I talked to him, Mark had just announced live at the TED conference that he's launching a full science curriculum for third to eighth graders and is giving it away for free to all teachers. He is full of excitement and energy about what he's doing. He still writes every script himself. Every video takes weeks. He doesn't seem to chase trends or let the system push him around. And somehow it's working spectacularly. So I wanna understand how he does it and what it actually feels like on the inside. I'm Molly Graham, and this is WorkLife, where we untangle the messy human side of work. So Mark Rober, welcome to WorkLife. Great to be here. It's so nice to see you. So before you were a successful YouTuber, you worked at NASA for nine years. And seven of those were on the Mars Curiosity rover. And I think it's such a hard timeline for most people to imagine because from what I understand, you worked on something for seven years and you didn't actually know if it would work when it landed on actual Mars. Yeah. I'm so curious like what that time and that project specifically kind of taught you about time and investment and success. Yeah, it's a good question because it is very interesting where it's like there's so many things that you can put a lot of work into and you could see at least, yeah, maybe you don't fully hit your goal, but you hit 80% of it and that's pretty damn good. But when you're putting a rover on Mars, it's kind of binary. It like either works or it's in like a smoldering heap. Or you miss the planet, which has happened before. So yeah, it was like seven years of my life. Like I had a kid, I lost my mom, you know, so many, like that's just on the personal life. I got my master's degree. And then at work, it's, you know, 14 hour days for like lots of times because Mars is on a timeline. The stars literally have to align. So you can't just launch whenever. It has to be a specific window. And so for it all to come down to just like seven minutes going from the upper atmosphere at 25,000 miles an hour down to like a comfortable four miles an hour. That's seven minutes. Either it works or it doesn't. And that first picture we got back from one of the HazCams, it's low res, it's black and white. It's like 300 pixels by 300 pixels. The first picture we got back was just the shadow of the rover dominating the Martian landscape. I'll never forget that the rest of my life. We're all sitting there. It comes down like line by line, like bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep. And it's like, yeah, so cool. And my hardware, by the way, is still working to this day. So fingers crossed. Seven years of work and you have no idea. And then you find out in seven minutes that actually. Yeah. And then, all right, now let's get to work and let's like explore Mars and learn some cool stuff. Yeah, that's so crazy. So you left NASA and then you worked at Apple for a bunch of years. But while you were working at Apple, you started posting on YouTube. Well, actually, while I was working at NASA, I started posting on YouTube. Oh, really? I didn't know that. No, 15 years ago. 15 years ago. So yeah, I had a Halloween costume with like an iPad in front and an iPad in back. And if you do a FaceTime chat, it looks like you have a hole in your body. So that was like my first. And it went kind of viral. I had like a couple million views. I was like, well, this is a cool feeling. I have more ideas. And that was back before you knew you could make money off YouTube or it was like a thing. I just wanted to barf out these cool ideas I had. And so it's basically been one video a month since then. So I went from there and then I worked at Apple for five years. I didn't quit Apple until I had 10 million subscribers. And it was still me and a tripod. And like I had no one on my team up to 10 million subscribers. And now with Crunch Labs and everything, now the channel has 75 million subscribers and we have like 140 employees. 140 employees. Yeah. It's grown so much. So I am curious because like YouTube is a platform where I think there can be a lot of like pushes or nudges. Like it can, you know, push you to post daily, right? Like the algorithm changes and it kind of like can screw with your business. But you just haven't like followed that. You've just posted once a month for 15 years. How do you actually like stay grounded in what is right for you when an algorithm is sort of like messing with you? Yeah, it's an interesting point you make, which is that like as a person who uploads content, it's like I am part of the algorithm. Like the algorithm can train you because you do this one thing that gets hot. Sometimes people do this. They do one video that gets hot and suddenly now that's their whole channel. And, you know, they become the, you know, the scrub daddy guy in the kitchen because that's the video that went viral, you know, across all their other. You could have been the Halloween costume guy. I could have been the Halloween costume guy. Exactly. And so I don't know. I think it partly comes down to like my initial motivation. And this is what I tell people when like they want to be, I want to start my own YouTube channel. I was like, great. There are like a thousand great reasons. There's only two really bad reasons. And the two really bad reasons are to get rich and to get famous. Because you'll never be rich enough. And when you get famous enough, you're like, why did I ever want this? And so it's like, you know, but there's a thousand, maybe you want to get, you want to sharpen your creative skills. You want to be a better storyteller. You just want to feel creative. You want to learn a skill. Like those are all great reasons. And so for me, it was never about being rich and famous. So it was like, why would I care? Like, I'm going to stick to what feels good to me. And you're right. Like, I've done one video a month. And there was a time where they wanted vlogs and daily uploads, but we just have a radical sort of focus on quality over quantity. And like So we're going to make a viral video that shows, we're not going to give all the steps, but basically, you know, we're not using, you can get these for like $15,000 on the dark web, but it's cooler to kind of make our own and be like, this is as simple as this is, so to protect yourself, just don't put your keys by the front door or put them in like a metal tin, and now you're going to save yourself. But like, again, even now, all this later, we have all these resources, but to the extent that we can do it with simple, with simple tools, it resonates so much more. You get more of a visceral response, right? Yeah, I love it. Okay, so you're, you may not remember this, but you made a throwaway comment on a different podcast about having a constant need for approval and using that as motivation. I'm really curious about to hear you just talk a little bit more about that and how you manage to keep it healthy, particularly, you know, given a platform like YouTube or the work that you do that's so public. Yeah, I think so. I grew up in a household where it was like, creativity was really encouraged. You know, I mean, my mom had the most, she had the most impact on my life by like a very, very comfortable margin. But it kind of was a household where it's like, do the right thing. And like, that's when you get the most support and the most love, right? So I think you're really, it impacts how you sort of go through the world. And I think that's a blessing and a curse, right? I think in some times it can make me feel like I have, everyone's all over on me here. It's great. It's cool. It kind of makes you feel like you have to earn the love, you know? And so that can be a double-edged sword, right? And less so with the public. I don't feel it as much like parasocially with like people who come up to me on the street. Like, it's less that, it's more in like interpersonal relationships, which is something I think everyone can relate to where it's like, you know, you can just relax a little bit and don't feel like, because it could be almost like a nervous energy where it's like, I got to be the best possible partner, you know? And then I hold myself to like an impossible standard. And so it just takes a really good partner, which I have, to just like get you in a good spot. So it's a team effort. Does it manifest in your work? I think, I don't, not in a negative way. I think it manifests in my, in my work in a good way. I, I feel like the negative can be in, interpersonally where you get like, but. How do you use it in a good way though? Well, just like, I want to make cool shit, you know, that like people, like I'm excited to share a video. And I think some people will be like, I don't care at all what anyone else thinks. And that I think can lead to, you don't push yourself as hard, right? So like in my work, I feel like it is a, it's healthy. Like I want, even last night, I did a TED talk last night and I was like talking to my partner. I was like, Oh, it was good. But it's like, I wish I, oh, this one bit I would. She's like, you don't get to say that. And I was like, she's like, you slayed it. And I was like, that's true. But also what got me to this point is that constantly being like, that was good. And I can appreciate that it was good. And I can look back on what I've done and I don't do it very often. But if I do, I'm like, yeah, that's good. But it's constantly like, but what's the next goal? What's the next mountain? And I think some point, I mean, that's what the role of dopamine in your brain. I have a pretty dopaminergic brain, but not to the point like Mr. Beast is a buddy of mine. He's a YouTuber and he is a very dopaminergic brain where it's like that, I think you can go too far on that spectrum. I do feel like I have a dopaminergic enough that pushed me to do stuff, but I can enjoy the weekend and enjoy what like I've done. Well, I'm so curious because like he has this quote, that's like, you can be me or you can be happy. And then I heard you say on a podcast that you feel like you're further from burnout than you've ever been. And I do think in your industry and world, there are just a lot of folks that burn themselves out or make themselves really unhappy by chasing certain things. But you haven't done that. Like why? Even from whenever you heard that, I'm even further from burnout, right? After last night? Yeah, especially after last night. But I think that's what it comes down to. It's like trusting my gut, focusing on quality. You know, I've given this analogy of just like keeping the treadmill at a speed that I could maintain. Because it's like exciting when you start doing this. And this happens a lot where someone gets some views and they hire a team and now they have a, you know, and now they're a team of 20. And basically what they're doing is they're cranking up the treadmill to sprint speed. And it's exciting at first, but the dopamine wears off. That's not a bug. That's a feature of the way our brains work and how we've evolved. And but you're still sprinting. And so, and that's what sucks. And that's what burnout is, I think, is when you're still doing the work, but you're not getting the reward for it. And so for me, the trick is like, look, keep it at a, keep it at a jogging speed. Again, like I didn't quit my job at Apple till I had 10 million subscribers, right? I didn't start my job or my company Crunch Labs where we build these boxes and we ship them to your door. Kids get to put them together and like, they're really fun toys that teach them the science. I didn't start that until I had enough subscribers and I could pay for it all myself to fund it, to get it off the ground. And so it's like, I will take risks, but they're like calculated risks. And in time, I'm never like betting the whole system at any moment, right? You sound like you have like a, like a sustainability compass too. This is it. I think that's a good way to phrase it. It's like, you know, when I say maximizing area under the curve, if, if like that's your goal and you're tracking progress, views, revenue, you know, our metric is brains reached, uh, you know, you can get VCs on board. And that's why I was afraid to even take funding. And they're going to want to pump this up and do all the things and get 2000 employees. And that's great like this. But then what happens is everything's lame and sucky. And then it goes down like this. So that's less area than just like sustained growth over time. And I do like, I focus a lot on, I'm very protective of my mental health and in the sense of just like trying to keep it really healthy and balanced. And this is why I've never built like a community, like, you know, the Rover crew or something. Like, I feel like that's to each their own, but like, that's a parasocial relationship that I don't think is healthy. Like I love meeting people on the street who have been impacted by the videos. Like I love that. But this idea of like forging this community that I'm talking to every day and they have input on my personal life and I don't really know them to me seems like super obviously unhealthy, at least for my brain. Same with like, you know, I've never bought a Ferrari or I lived in a rented a three bedroom town home for until like a year ago. Like I've never had that also seems very obvious to me of like, if you spending a lot of money and being flashy about it is like, duh, that's not going to bring you happiness. Right. So like certain things, I feel like it's not like I try harder. They just seem glaringly obvious, a bad idea and maintaining and really like kind of optimizing for long-term happiness and sustainability feels very clearly the right thing to do. This episode is sponsored by Rula. When you're going through a difficult breakup or a tough time at work, or just dealing with the anxiety and stress of everyday life, the last thing you want to do is scour the internet for therapists who take your insurance. A lot of online therapy won't accept insurance at all, which means taking care of your mental health requires paying out of pocket or signing up for a pricey monthly subscription. But Rula does things differently. They partner with over 120 insurance plans, meaning the average copay is just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price point that actually makes sense. With a network of thousands of therapists nationwide, Rula can help you find the right one for you based on your needs, preferences, and state requirements. Thousands of people are already using Rula to get affordable high quality therapy. That's actually covered by insurance. Visit Rula.com slash work life to get started. That's R-U-L-A.com slash work life. You deserve mental health care. That works with you, not against your budget. This episode is brought to you by National Business Furniture. You can find them at nbf.com. What your workspace looks like says a lot about the way you work and can make a big difference when it Yeah, I saw you tear up on stage when you announced it, and I know that you've always said you wanted to be a high school science teacher. I will be, yeah. Well, you, I mean, in some way, you are the world's science teacher. I know that's true, but also, like, I'm halfway through getting my teaching credentials. Like, I'm going to do it. Yeah, I started, like, in 2018, and then things got really crazy. And so it will happen because teachers are the best. Like, it's the most important job on the planet. They're my favorite people. If I'm at a party and there's like an agent and, you know, some investor, a lawyer, and a teacher. I mean, obviously it won't be the lawyers. Sorry, lawyers. But I'm immediately like, okay, me and the teacher are going to go to the corner and we're going to chat. Like, they're my people. Yeah. And they did. It's the most important job on the planet. So it's like I'm, I'm like, reinforcements are on the way. Like, look, we're going to team up. They're the hero. This isn't them playing a video. Like, we team teach, right? And it's going to be, it's going to be really freaking cool. It's so amazing. Well, Mark Grover, thank you so much for making time for this. Of course. It's been so fun. It's been so fun to get to know you, and I'm so inspired by what you announced last night and just what you're doing to empower teachers. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the platform. Like, this is a big deal for us. No, it's incredible. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. That was so fun. Mark is such an interesting person. There were a lot of takeaways in that conversation that I'm going to be thinking about for the next couple weeks. But honestly, the biggest one that I took away was this idea of sustainability. And Mark talked about it in, like, a bunch of different dimensions that I actually think are all really important. He talked about this idea of, like, putting the treadmill on a speed and an incline that you feel like you can keep doing for a very long time. And I think even thinking about that in years is kind of crazy. First of all, the idea of walking on a treadmill for years. But actually, like, you can just imagine how in a system like YouTube, you really need to do that if you're going to try to make this a long-term sustainable business. And I think that's so hard to imagine, what does that mean for you? Because what's sustainable for you is going to be different than what's sustainable for someone else. But it really is kind of grounding to think about what would let you keep doing something for years and years and years. The other two types of sustainability that he talked about, though, that I thought were really interesting because you've definitely seen bad examples of this, are, number one, company building sustainability. So, like, he talked about the fact that he didn't leave his job until he had 10 million subscribers and he didn't hire employees until he knew that he was profitable enough to sustain them. And that is something that I've seen a lot of founders or a lot of creators make the mistake of sort of, like, getting ahead of their business. And then somehow either the financial weight or the operational weight actually crushes sort of what was working for them, what made them happy. And then the last kind was financial, right? Personal financial. He talked about not buying the big house until you know you can afford it, not buying the big fancy cars and the outward signs of wealth that honestly can get really addictive. For people in terms of just this outward sign of success. And I just thought across all of his dimensions, it was such an interesting set of examples to think about what does sustainability mean for you? What helps you build the life and the time that you want? That's our show. All right. See you next week. WorkLife is a production of TED and Pushkin Industries. This episode was produced by Isaac Carter and Leah Rose. Ban-Ban Chang is our story editor. Mixing by Hansdale Shi. TED's executive producer is Daniela Bolarazo. Constanza Gallardo is the executive producer for Pushkin. Special thanks to Roxanne Highlash, Valentina Bohanini, Laney Lott, Tonsika Sungmanivong, and Ashley Murphy. If you like the show and want more, come join the discussion on my Substack Lessons. I'm Molly Graham. Thanks for listening. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. Hi there, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking podcast, and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. I get to spend my days studying how people think and what it actually takes to change our minds. It's work I find deeply meaningful. But even meaningful work, there's still busy work. The admin, the repetitive processes, the invisible load that pulls attention away from what really matters. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish. Cases closed. Requests handled. No extra work for you. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com. Real winning means showing up stronger, faster, better than before. The drop by GNC cuts through the noise, bringing you the best new innovations in performance and nutrition. From strength and recovery to endurance and focus, you're always leveling up. The drop by GNC. What's new, what works, what's next.