What to do when your industry keeps changing with Manoush Zomorodi

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I mean, I used to feel pretty clear about how to build a great company, that the lessons I've learned scaling organizations over the last 20 years would be useful to people that I write for and coach and teach. But lately, I've been asking myself, are these skills that I've spent years building still the right ones for what's coming next? It feels disorienting. Things that used to feel obvious or certain are suddenly up for grabs. For people in fields like software or design, jobs that have felt stable and secure, this is brand new territory. But in other industries, constant disruption and uncertainty aren't new at all. Take journalism. For the last 30 years, journalism has been living through wave after wave of disruption. The internet, social media, the collapse of traditional business models, the rise of independent creators and podcasts and newsletters. The ground beneath that industry has been shifting for decades. And people in media have had to reinvent themselves over and over and over again. I think there's something the rest of us can learn from that experience as we confront this new AI-driven reality. What do you do when the thing you've built your career around keeps changing? I'm Molly Graham, and this is WorkLife, where we untangle the messy human side of work. My guest today is Manoush Zomorodi. Manoush is a longtime journalist and podcast host who almost seems to chase this disruptive change. And along the way, she has built a thriving career. Early on, she became fascinated by technology and started reporting on how it was shaping our lives. And she moved into the world of audio long before most of us realized that podcasts were about to become a major platform. She even made a podcast on the blockchain. On the blockchain. We'll get to that. But you see what I mean. She likes being on the edge. Today, she hosts TED Radio Hour, one of the most widely listened to idea shows in the world. And she has a brand new book out called The Body Electric. In other words, she has built a remarkable career while the industry around her kept changing. So I want to talk to her about what it actually takes to keep moving forward when the ground keeps shifting beneath your feet. Manoush, welcome to WorkLife. Oh, I'm so happy to be here, Molly. Thanks for the invite. I know, same. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Great. As have I. So throughout your whole career, you've had the ground moving under your feet in media, in audio. And that's now starting to happen to a lot of people in a lot of different industries with AI showing up. So I'm curious, like what's been the most helpful compass for you when, you know, the map keeps changing? Yeah, so almost exactly 30 years ago, I got into the news business, media business. So I was like, I think I want to be a documentary filmmaker. And I was living in Washington, D.C. I was going to college in D.C. And I was like, well, the BBC makes documentaries. So I'll call them. So I literally took out the phone book and looked up the BBC's bureau and called. And the secretary, there was a secretary at the time, happened to be out. And so the bureau chief answered the phone. And I was like, hi, so do you guys need any interns? And he said, that sounds great. And I ended up working for the company for 10 years after that. I did not become a documentary filmmaker because they were not making documentaries. It was the news bureau. So I just got, I think, a boot camp in how to tell a story because that really was, it was very classic news storytelling when I was there. And because I was young and when I graduated, cheap, they hired me and gave me ridiculous amounts of responsibility. I was the producer for two correspondents who worked for BBC World Service. And those two correspondents did radio and TV. So I really lucked out in that I kept showing up. I was eager to learn. I asked a ton of questions. I think I, like, I had a good attitude. I was just pumped to be there. I learned, like, the basics. Like, how do you tell someone a story so that not only do you get the information across, but you understand the stakes of the information? Why this is important to listen to. You add a human component to it. You explain the background just enough so people get it. And then you cast forward, like, where is this going next? You know, there's just sort of the formula that was there. And I think that formula of storytelling as it relates to news and changing things, that is the one thing that has not changed in the 30 years that I've been a journalist. And so every time I've sort of zigged or zagged, it's always come back to the fundamentals. And I feel very lucky in that I like change. So maybe I convince myself that I like change, but I find it interesting. I'm like, oh, so now, you know, we can add AI to it? That's kind of cool. I know there are a lot of problems with it, but I also find it inherently interesting because every time you add something or you take it away, you change the creative formula and then you have to figure it out. But truly, the fundamentals always stay the same. It's so interesting because you actually sound like your intention wasn't to become a journalist. It was to become a storyteller. I think that's right. But if I kind of roll my eyes at that now, because aren't we all storytellers? We're all on social media. We're all telling our own story. We're all marketing ourselves all the time. So in some ways, I feel like, well, I was just a little early to that party. Like when I started doing videos at NPR, they were like, oh, you're really good at this. I was like, well, I was a TV reporter 20 years ago. It's not that different, really, you know. Yeah. Well, actually, tell me a story. I'm curious, like, if you think back to the early days at the BBC then, like, was there like a moment when you were like, this is why I want to do this. Like, this is why I'm in journalism or this is why I'm a storyteller. This is like what I was put on earth to do. Like, what was it and what happened? I just think I like the idea that I'm where history is happening. And that can be in different ways, right? Like, for example, you know, I flew into Belgrade when the parliament was on fire. And I was like, huh, there could be a civil war when I land. It was fine. Like everything settled down. But I just like the idea that I was where history was happening. And, like, I felt incredibly lucky to be watching it for myself. It just felt very interesting and exciting. And this was a moment where things were going to change. And I saw it. That seemed really cool. It still feels really cool. I was going to say, is that still true for you? Is that still what energizes you? I got tired. 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Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply. Do you feel like when you were at the BBC and at like WNYC, which is obviously like older institutions that have been around a long time, did you know that they were being disrupted? Could you feel that? Or were you just like, I'm curious about these new technologies? I think it's the BBC. I saw it happening, but I didn't really understand what it meant, like to be disrupted. It was because it was such a huge organization. I saw the disruption more within the organization, like new teams making new things because of new platforms and people being like, but what about the 6 o'clock news? What do we do about that? And it's like, yeah, guess what, you guys? It's not gonna matter. I mean, I was there when they launched their 24-hour news channel. Like, what are we doing? How are we on the air all the time? So I saw the disruption from within, but it didn't, you know, I was in my 20s. I wanted to go out a lot and I wanted to meet people and I wanted to try things and see the world, all those things. So I didn't really think about it. But then when I moved, so after 9-11, I moved back to New York and because they did have a 24-hour channel because there was the internet, they just started throwing me on air occasionally because, like, you got to fill the time with somebody. She knows what's going on. Throw her on there. And I kind of liked it. My first was, I was on Mount Etna with the correspondent and we thought the volcano had stopped erupting. So he went home and I couldn't get a flight and it started erupting again. So they put me on camera and I was on the morning news, you know? Like, I was like, oh, this is kind of fun. I mean, it's easy when there's lava literally streaming behind you to do a good job. And I do believe you don't know what something is like until you try it, until you do it, until you get your hands dirty and you can say, like, this isn't actually that hard or, oh, this is really hard. This is hard. And it's not for me or I want to crack it, you know? It really frustrates me when people ask me for career advice and they're like, what should I do? Who should I talk to? How do I do this? And I'm like, just go make it. Make it. Because even if it sucks, you will understand it so much better than if you just talk about it. You will ask better questions the next time. You will realize maybe you didn't wanna do exactly what you thought you wanted to do, or you'll find a new way to do it. And that could be really interesting, too. Like, just go do it. Just go do it. Don't talk about it. Just go do it. Well, it's interesting because I actually think it's also just not something that is comfortable for a lot of people to try things that they don't know if they're gonna be good at. Lots of people wanna know that they're gonna be good at something before they do it. What do you tell people that do have that sort of, where do I start? I have this trepidation or I'm scared I'm gonna fail. Yes, we all do. Go do it anyway. Nobody has to see what you are gonna make. You don't have to show it to anyone. Like, talk to yourself. Sit yourself down and be like, we'll just try it. And if I suck at this, it's between you and me. Like, and you will suck at it, right? Molly, as we know, like anything that's hard takes practice. Like, I really have been meaning to try pickleball. I still haven't. I know I'm going to suck. Manoush, it's, you got to try it. It's really fun. That's what I hear. I am gonna do it. There's a new place in my neighborhood. Okay, well, just to put a point on this, and then I also wanna talk about failure and just trying things that don't work out. Like, do you have sort of a way you recognize, like a ritual or just a way that you know when you're like, oh, time to go dive into that. Like a feeling or just something that tells you it's time. I can't stop thinking about it. It's like a pair of shoes. You try on the shoes and that's my rule. I'm like, if I walk away and the shoes don't come up again, I didn't need to buy the shoes. If the shoes haunt my dreams, I need the shoes. It's the same thing with ideas. If it just keeps coming back to me and I'm, it won't leave me alone. It haunts me. Then I'm like, this is the thing. This is the thing. It doesn't happen that often, though. Like, so I've also realized that. It's not like this happens every day. I am now patient with the process. I know that, like, this is a every two to three year thing for me. And it's a cycle to reinvent yourself, kind of. I don't see it as reinventing because I actually think I stay the same. It's the project that changes. It's the approach. Sometimes it's the vehicle, right? And I really love watching and seeing how media changes. It's like sports to me. I find it fascinating. I read all of the stuff, you know. So, like, it's a pleasure, right? Like, it's scarier now since everybody is media, essentially. But to me, that's like, well, then what is the value of journalism? And if there is an inherent value to it, how do I provide that? I want to continue to be a journalist. And I think that is still a vocation as opposed to everyone saying anything and everything all the time. You actually sound like you're very clear on either, like, your life's mission or the work you want to do in the world. And you're just deeply not married to the how. I think that's right. Yes, I think that's right. You're like, I'm a storyteller. I'm a journalist. There are ideas and stories I wanna tell in the world. What is the next best way to do that? Totally. I think that's absolutely right. Yes. Thank you for that. I know the ones that I'm better at. Writing a book is really, really hard for me. And I think that part of the reason is because in my very early formative years as a journalist, I wrote for broadcast. And that just formed my brain in some way, that I write very simply. I write very declaratively. I want to let the people I'm talking to, whether that's audio or video, explain themselves. I wanna leave space for that. So, like, talking for three hours, like, you know, a la Joe Rogan, like, I'm kind of like, couldn't you sub it down? It's probably more like 20 minutes, don't you think? Like, we're busy people, you know? Like, I get it. Some people like that format and maybe I'll try it. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing, you know? Maybe it's really fun. I'm having a great time right now. So, but I think that's right. Like, I think I, I can also get like stuck a little bit. Like there was a period where I had to do this one seven minute slot on WNYC radio. And anything I wrote always ended up being about seven minutes. I could not like get out of the seven minutes. And somebody said to me, they're like, you're like an athlete. You like pace yourself exactly. Like, you know, somebody just runs the hundred meter. They know how to run the hundred meters. You know how to run the seven minutes. And I was like, well, I got to get out of that. I got to be able to throw the fricking javelin and, you know, shot put. I don't know how far I can take this metaphor, Molly, but you know what I'm saying? Like, I wanna be like, yeah, so like, I think I get really fixated and focused. And once I've cracked it, I'm like, cool, done. Let's, what do we do next? What do we do next? Exactly. It's so interesting. You sound like you're in constant motion, honestly. Yes. Well, the irony that I've written a book about sitting all the time is kind of rich. But yes, I like to be stimulated, titillated. I like to be with, I wanna be the dumbest person in the room. Yeah. Because there's all these conversations right now in the technology industry, which is going through a level of disruption that they see in the future and they're just sort of moving things around to see how they're going to get to that. Does that ring true to you as someone who has been on the ground at a lot of these companies? I mean, absolutely. What you were describing is the folks that do actually create generational change. Like if you spend time with a Mark Zuckerberg or an Elon Musk, it can be like feeling like you're walking into a parallel universe. Yes, 100%. Yes. What I feel bad is that, okay, one regret. I am really good at convincing people to try things with me, so I got a lot of people. They got their money back, but I got a lot of people to be like, yes, I want journalism to not be reliant on ads for money. I want a direct way of doing this. What you've described so far seems plausible and interesting. Nobody was expecting to be rich. Well, maybe they were. I don't know. But other than the whale, the people who bought most of the coin were my listeners. So that didn't feel great, but in the end, they're certainly ahead of the game in terms of understanding crypto and blockchain, so maybe they don't have regrets either. We went on a ride together. You went on a journey and you came out someplace totally different from where you started, which just sounds like to you is the point. This episode is brought to you by National Business Furniture. You can find them at nbf.com. What your workspace looks like says a lot about the way you work and can make a big difference when it comes to productivity. The truth is, our surroundings can impact how we think, how we feel, and who we become while we're in them. Your workspace can affect engagement, productivity, and maybe even retention. 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Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply. So just to go back to something you were talking about earlier, and it sort of ties to the software engineering conversation and AI conversation that's related to the people predicting the death of software engineering, because I feel like people have been predicting the death of media and the death of journalism for a couple decades now. But you've built this long, very successful career inside of it. What do you say to people that talk about it as dying? I think two things. One is, like, there are some people who believe that as we enter this era of, like, we don't know what's real, we don't know what to believe, that actually there will be a sort of reverse backlash that people will be like, it matters that you check your facts. It matters that you have editorial standards. It matters that you know how to do the work you do. I hope that's true. I do also really enjoy the niche-ification of media. And I think we see that people who feel that they belong and are getting value will pay for it. I think we have to be smarter about not giving all the money to the platforms. So is bundling the answer? I don't know. I mean, Substack is kind of bundling. That is kind of what it is in its own way. It just feels like it's going to be very fragmented. And if you think back to the history of journalism in the United States, it was very fragmented. Sure, there was the LA Times and the New York Times and the Washington Post, and every city had its own newspaper and every town had its own. It was fragmented, but it was fragmented geographically. And now we're talking about a fragmentation that is by interests and mindsets. And that is more dangerous, I think, but also potentially the monetization opportunity as well. Well, so and it is interesting to hear you like talk out loud because I can hear you thinking about what does this mean and where do we go next? You know, and it sounds like that's part of your process, which is just letting the cycle do its work, where it's like maybe it's not time to take a leap right now, but clearly change is coming. Where do I want to fit? What is the business? I mean, literally just listening to you talk put together a lot of the pieces you talked about, which is like there'll be a moment when you sort of like have an idea or something poking at you. And you're like, I got to go do this. But I am curious, like you just wrote a book about the physical body, which is so different from, in some ways, like other things you've done. What is the sort of like next problem in the space that you find yourself most drawn to right now? Yeah, I think it actually makes total sense. So 10 years ago, I got obsessed with this idea that we didn't have boredom in our lives anymore because of our tech habits. So that sent me on this like rabbit hole to understand, like, what is boredom in the brain? Is it actually a force for good? And then I asked my listeners at the time, do you want to spend a week trying to be more bored with me and tracking your phone time? Because you couldn't track your phone then. I had to find an app and we had to customize it. It's so weird. It's now on your operating system and it pokes you all the time. But back then, this was new. So 20,000 people signed up and they tried to cut down on their phone time and they tried to be bored more often. So I wrote a book about that and the breakthroughs that they had. And then over the pandemic, I just felt like shit all the time, Molly. Like at the end of the day, like all the screens, I was like, I'm not doing anything. Why am I so tired? Why can I only like lie down and scroll? And then that sent me on a goose chase to try to understand, like, what actually happens on a physical level when you sit and stare at a screen all day. And the answers are your cardiovascular health diminishes. Your chances of having a chronic illness go up. Your chance of being nearsighted go up. If you listen to headphones all day, you'll probably go deaf earlier in life. The reason you feel tired and foggy all the time is that you're actually not oxygenating your brain because of the way your posture works and your circulation works. It was this whole thing. And I was like, but all we're talking about is the mental health effects of being online. Why aren't we talking about these physical effects because they're all related? This is a system. We have to talk about the system. And then I found this amazing researcher at Columbia who had done this intervention that had these huge effects in the lab, which was taking movement breaks, like really gentle movement breaks regularly throughout your day. And I went and joined his lab experiment and like my glucose levels dropped. My blood pressure dropped by five points. My anxiety and ability to focus. One went away. The other stayed. It was crazy. I felt like a new person just by doing this dumb hack. And then here comes the new part. Because he was at Columbia, he's like, well, we can make this a global clinical trial. I was like, real science? He's like, yeah. So we went through the whole process. So it's in the midst of going through peer review to be published in a scientific journal. But we had 20,000 people try to take these little movement breaks and respond. And it changed people's lives, Molly. Just thinking about what I call the mind-body tech connection, how their technology influences the conversation between their mind and body. People lost a few pounds. They had new ideas. They felt less depressed. They were less tired. And in this day and age, if you can help anyone feel just the slightest bit better and understand themselves a little bit more, I'm calling it a win. I mean, it actually really ties back to your blockchain story too, which is like what you love doing is investigating things all the way to the end and bringing people with you. And this is such a powerful example of like your audience becomes part of a global clinical trial and This is not available in all areas.