What pressure can teach you about leadership with Don Faul

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With a variety of unique colors, interior finishes, accessories, and even wheel options, the ways to personalize your Range Rover Sport are nearly unlimited. When your time to lead arrives, you need a vehicle that rises to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now. Explore further at Rover.com. Your job as a leader is to support and serve your people. It's almost the, you know, when I was a more naive leader, I thought it was the opposite. You know, that my people were there to kind of serve and support me. But, you know, leadership, you know, in the Marine Corps and this is still a philosophy that I try to aspire to. I think it's about, about serving and supporting your people. And if you can do so, they can achieve great things. I learned to lead on a mountainside, not metaphorically. I mean, literally. My first job out of college was leading wilderness expeditions for a school called Knolls. I led 75-day mountaineering and sea kayaking trips for folks in Patagonia and Alaska. And yes, I am proud of the fact that I have gone 52 days without showering. Yes, it's gross, I know, but it's also one of my fun facts. Learning to lead in the wilderness is not a slow process. When you're dealing with things like lightning or 30 days straight of pouring rain or avalanche danger, you get feedback pretty quickly about your leadership. Consequences feel bigger and more immediate. People can get hurt. But that makes it more clear why leadership is so important and what's working and not working about whatever it is that you're doing. I've thought about that experience a lot over the years. Because I think there's something about leading in high-stakes environments that teaches you things in weeks that it can take years to learn in business. It strips away all the performance of leadership and forces you down to the things that actually matter. And if that's true on a wilderness expedition, imagine what you learn when people's lives are actually regularly on the line. What does leading under pressure teach you? And what can the rest of us take from it? My guest today is Don Fall. Don started his leadership journey at the Naval Academy and then spent five years as a Marine Corps officer inside a unit called Force Reconnaissance, one of the most elite units in the Marines. After the Marines, he went on to become one of the earliest operational leaders at Google and then one of the most important operational leaders at Facebook, where he built and ran global teams during the company's most intense years of growth. After Facebook, he went out on his own, most recently serving as the CEO of CrossFit. A lot of leaders start in the military. Few of them spend the next 20 years stress testing those lessons the way Don has. I became friends with Don during our early years at Facebook. He was well-known there as the manager that everyone wanted to work for. When we both left, we created a group of execs that met monthly to keep each other sane and to learn from each other. Which means I've seen Don through some incredible highs and lows. And where I often feel like a chaotic mess, Don has always seemed like the steadiest person in the room. So today, I want to know what pressure actually teaches you about leadership. And Don has better answers to that question than almost anyone I've ever met. I'm Molly Graham, and this is WorkLife, where we untangle the messy human side of work. I feel like when people picture great leadership or great leaders, they imagine someone like really confident and decisive and certain. I'm curious, in your experience, what does great leadership actually look like? It's funny. What you described there is when I was a young leader, what I thought I had to be. And when I was young, you don't have a lot, or I didn't have a lot of certainty around anything. And you're often faced with this choice of, do you fake it? The old fake it till you make it. You have to project confidence, even if you don't feel it. And over time, I learned that actually, it's something quite different. And I think it probably took me personally, gosh, 15 years. I'd say I spent six years in the Marine Corps, went back to grad school, transitioned into technology. I think it was really, if I had to really pin it down, it was during my time at Facebook where I finally got to the point where I had finally learned and internalized this notion of, I think great leadership is often about understanding the uncertainty. It's about humility and recognizing that you don't and can't, as a leader, always have the answer. And great leaders understand how to inspire and project confidence while creating the conditions where you can bring people together when you don't have the answer and lead them to it. So, okay, so let's go back to the beginning. You started your work journey, and I think your leadership journey at the Naval Academy and then in the Marines. Can you explain, for those of us that were not in any branch of the military, your path there and also what force reconnaissance was? Sure. Yeah, so I graduated high school and ended up enrolling at the United States Naval Academy, which for folks who are not familiar with that, think of it as a combination of a normal university experience plus military on top of it. So I studied systems engineering and on top of that, you do a bunch of curriculum and experiences in and around leadership, military knowledge tactics. I graduated from there. And upon graduation, you go and do five years, kind of minimum five years of service. And for the Naval Academy, that's either in the Navy or the Marine Corps, which is a part of the Department of the Navy. I chose the Marine Corps largely for cultural reasons and then had the opportunity to serve as a Marine infantry officer. So there are a ton of different jobs in the Marine Corps from the infantry to aviation to supply. You get matched with that job type. I started in the infantry and then my second job in the infantry, I transitioned to a unit called 1st Force Reconnaissance Company, which, you know, that unit's mission was a combination of gathering information, so reconnaissance, you know, putting small teams out to gather information, you know, on the battlefields and then a mix of what they call direct action, which can be everything from hostage rescue to very specific targeted missions. So I had the, you know, opportunity and privilege to serve with that group as well. So you were in active service, meaning you were overseas on the ground. Will you just tell us a little bit, like give us, give me some context. I've never even asked you half these questions. Good. Yeah, so I graduated from the Naval Academy in 1998. I went and did a year of training in Quantico and then I was stationed out at Camp Pendleton in San Diego. So very lucky to have a great duty station. I deployed with the Marine Corps in August of 2001. So the Marine Corps at any given time, the Marine Corps is an expeditionary force in terms of the U.S. military. And what that means is that the Marine Corps can deploy, does deploy forces in partnership with the Navy in forward And, you know, that was the initiation of combat operations for us. And we eventually moved into Kandahar Airport, International Airport, and we seized that in Kandahar, and we established that as, you know, a base for humanitarian operations and some of the security operations. And then we started bringing in the U.S. then could start to fly in resources. And I remember being there, and it really struck me at that point how important my role was in terms of setting an emotional tone for the group that, you know, we had some things happen that were, you know, we had some people get injured. And, you know, I could feel myself getting impacted in a significant sort of way by the emotion, by the fear, by the sadness. And I remember having just this stark moment of looking around and realizing every single one of my Marines is looking at me right now. And it's not only what I say, but it's how I show up. It's what I project. And they will feed off that. And, you know, I think that that's obviously a circumstance and very profound situation. But that same thing is true. I found that to be true in my career of going through various situations and people look to leadership for not only specific direction, but, you know, they read off how you're feeling and what you're projecting and that, you know, infuses itself throughout the organization. So I learned that in a really significant sort of way. You know, and then the last thing I'll say, and I could obviously go on forever about this, but that was the first time I had the opportunity to serve. I served under General Mattis there and, you know, 74 levels below him, probably more than that, but we had the opportunity to be around him. And he, I've never been around a more extraordinary leader on every dimension. But the things that really jumped out, you know, this was a, we talk about servant leadership in the Marine Corps all the time, this notion of your job as a leader is to support and serve your people. It's almost the, you know, when I was a more naive leader, I thought it was the opposite. You know, that my people were there to kind of serve and support me, but, you know, leadership, you know, in the Marine Corps and this is still, you know, a philosophy that I try to aspire to, I think is about serving and supporting your people. And if you can do so, they can achieve great things. And I've never seen someone embody that more than General Mattis too. You know, the contrast is a one-star general, you know, being so senior, but being able to engage with Marines and show them and project this notion of, I work for you. I serve for you. You know, small story, General Mattis would walk the lines. You know, I would walk the lines to check on my Marines at night and make sure they were awake and paying attention, et cetera. And, you know, I would find General Mattis, a one-star general, sitting in a fighting hole with a 19-year-old Lance Corporal talking to him about his life and asking him questions about how he's doing and does he have what he needs? And, you know, the impact that had on those Marines was really profound. And I'll, you know, never forget that. This episode is powered by AT&T Business. If you're running your own business, you know that the Sunday scaries are real. 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Monday.com AI agents took over my work, and I absolutely love it. Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind now. I stay in the loop only when it matters. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday.com. I feel like when most people think about leadership in the military, they think very directive style of leadership, right? Where it's like, I give orders and you take them and you don't ask questions. But that isn't what servant leadership is. So will you actually just talk about what is different in the Marines and really what it looks like day-to-day? Sure, sure. Yeah. So, you know, I think this is one of the most common misperceptions, you know, when I talk to folks who have not served. And I understand why, you know, there are a lot of folks. I remember very early on meeting with a senior leader at Google, and they're like, hey, this isn't the Marine Corps. We don't just tell people what to do. I'm like, well, that's actually not how the Marine Corps works either. You know, the, I think the Marine Corps in general philosophically really believes in this notion of servant leadership, right? So you may, you've probably read the book Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek. That phrase comes from the Marine Corps. You know, I learned that as a, you know, 21-year-old second lieutenant, leaders eat last. That's one of those rituals that reinforces, right? It's this very powerful, subtle thing that it's not about you. Your job is to support your Marines. And now there are times, you know, and there are times when a decision has to get made. And you don't have the time to workshop it and get everyone's inputs. And there is an environment that supports. My Marines knew if I said, hey, we need to make a call, you had the trust and support to execute and line up behind it. But I think great leaders in the Marine Corps, great leaders in the military, outside of the military, they understand that the best outcomes, you know, come from an environment where you can get that input and that perspective. And often, you know, in the military, in the military needs to enable decentralized decision-making. You know, in many cases, to use force reconnaissance, for example, we would send out teams of five or six Marines hundreds of miles into enemy territory with infrequent communication or, you know, potentially at times unreliable communication, and they had to make decisions. And so you needed to have a construct where they understood what success was like and felt empowered to make decisions to go execute on that mission. And all of your training and all of the culture is about enabling that. What do you feel like you were taught in the Marines that most managers never get taught? You have an exceptionally high bar and you don't make excuses and you take ownership for things. So, you know, when you show up at the Naval Academy as a freshman, they call you plebes to reinforce that you have no rights. You are there to learn. We're going to rebuild you. And you learn, basically, you have four, they call them the four basic responses. When someone addresses you, there are only four things you can say. You know, yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. No, sir. I'll find out, sir. Or no excuse, sir. That's it. And that was super powerful because you realize very quickly when you're taught those things that you've, I had lived my life making excuses for things that didn't go right. And you just learn in the military, you know, as they say, you find a way or make one. And when I was coming out of the Marine Corps, you know, I came off of that, you know, almost six years of active duty in the Marine Corps after the Naval Academy. I went back to grad school. I started my first job at Google and I knew zero about technology. Nothing. I had this military experience, but to me it was, it felt very foreign. I remember looking at, when I was applying for jobs, looking at all of these roles and feeling like I was not qualified for any of them, right? We were looking for someone with five to seven years of consumer technology experience. I didn't have that. But I remember starting and a few months in just being grateful for, I don't, you know, starting any particular project, starting a particular work. I don't know how to do it, but I'm not giving up and I will find a way to get it done. And you come to realize that, that you can actually get up to speed At an unprecedented scale by people all over the world. So very, very extraordinarily challenging problem that these platforms are still wrestling with today. It's very hard. And it put us square in the bull's eye of lots of conflict. And, you know, there were scenarios where what I felt like was the right approach was a bad business outcome for Facebook. And, you know, I'm not saying, I won't claim that I was always right, but I had conviction around what I thought was the right point of view from, you know, where I was sitting, which was the, you know, operations side, the policy side. And it was incredibly stressful. You know, literally, we had heads of state writing in whose families had been targeted with content, kind of implying if it's not addressed in a satisfactory way that they were going to take action against the company. And, you know, I had to advocate for what I thought was the right approach for both the platform and for my team. And it didn't always go well for me. And I didn't always make the right call, but there were a lot of cases where I remember thinking, like, I can make the easy decision here that I know will get us through this in the short, it'll make this press story go away. But it then will create a whole bunch of problems for us down the line. And part of what I hear in that for you on the sort of moral courage front, and by the way, I think this is the stuff that people that have not operated inside of a social platform like this, don't, it's very easy to be judgmental from the outside and being in the middle of making these policies and understanding, like, how complicated it is, you know, to, and I always, the test I always give people is define hate speech for me. You define it. Tell me exactly how you would define it, you know, because it is really complicated. And then to enforce it, obviously, is like a whole other level. But that you, part of what I hear you saying is like, that you had the courage both to stand up for what you thought was right, but also to stand up for what the team was going to have to go through, you know, in order to implement something. Yeah, and exactly. And, you know, there were, and again, like lots of lessons for me, things I wish I'd done better in the moment. I think I did a poor job communicating and framing the issues. I did not do it at the appropriate strategic level. But yeah, there were situations where we had, I had to advocate, I advocated for things that I thought were right for sure for my team, but also right for Facebook. I thought things that I thought were right for the company. And again, not going back and claiming, I think there are areas where I was wrong or naive, et cetera. I will also say, I think what you said is really true. It is really easy to look at a variety of scenarios from the outside and say, gosh, that's a really easy decision. It's black and white. And I was this, I am, was this person. I do it all the time. I read something in the news. I see something. I'm like, ah, they're just cowards. It is oftentimes very complicated. And it is rare, at least I've had a lot of scenarios where it's not like black and white, what's the right call? It's, you have two very bad, very bad paths, very challenging paths with real lack of clarity on things. And so I have a new sense of like that experience, experiences I've had since, I guess a little bit more perspective for how complicated and challenging these things can be. Now, that said, I also think there are lots of cases where people lack moral courage. And it's, it is easier to do the thing that is, that doesn't come with a cost. And so I look back at a lot of decisions, you know, decisions I've made in my career where I lacked moral courage, like straight up. Those are the ones I regret the most of anything I've done in my, in my career in life. And I think we need more of that in companies. We need more of that in society. It is in rare supply. It's not easy, but gosh, we need it. And I think it is from a leadership perspective, people are inspired by that. 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Will you just talk, tell the story about that happening to you, both what it felt like and what you learned from it, like looking back on it? Yeah, so this goes back to, gosh, I had probably been at Facebook for about a year and a half or so. So let's call it 2010, somewhere in that range. And I worked for Cheryl and my responsibility at that point was managing a bunch of Facebook's customer-facing teams that supported users, developers, advertisers. And, you know, funny, when I first started at Facebook, Cheryl came over about a month after I reported to work for her. She told me in my first one-on-one with her, I'm so glad you're here, but I'm gonna level you basically immediately. I'm like, what is leveling? Sorry, I'm gonna hire someone over you. Like, I'm gonna basically hire someone who's more experienced and more competent, which not exactly what you're looking forward to hearing in your first one-on-one with your new manager. But I actually, at the time, I also totally got it. I'm like, I get it. You know, I understand it. But she didn't actually for two years and was really grateful to her. She gave me enormous opportunity to kind of grow and the scope of my role grew. So, you know, it grew to a point where, you know, managing this large global team and you'd come to, and at the time, Facebook is growing and scaling at an enormous rate. So, you know, going from tens of millions to hundreds of millions of users in hundreds of countries. The team has grown from 40, 50 to, I don't know, six, 700 at this point. And Cheryl calls me in, you know, as far as I know, things are going great. And Cheryl, you know, I've had weekly one-on-one. And, you know, in one of those one-on-one, she tells me, you're doing a great job and I'm gonna split your role and I'm hiring someone else. And come again? Those two parts of the sentence don't seem to line up. But she had said, hey, look, like the, you are doing a great job, but the company is growing faster than your ability to scale. And that's no slight against you. We will be better and you will be better from us hiring someone to take on the advertising piece. Because you ran like, you ran user operations and support, and then you ran advertiser operations. That's right, yeah. Advertiser side and then the developer side and the risk and payment. So I was lucky to have a pretty broad scope and it was, they were very my ability to lead our Marines. So I would write it off as, you know, I wouldn't blame him and I would get angry at him and I'd find myself fighting him just on principle, these organ and personal dynamics. I would find myself feeding when other people would complain about it. It was easy to like lean into that and be like, yeah. And then I had this moment where I was just honestly kind of ashamed of myself. Like, wow. And then I remember just thinking to my, I don't know what hit me, but I had this moment of like, what are you doing? You are making the situation worse. The way you are showing up is going to drive worse outcomes. So your ego and, you know, in that case, my lack of maturity, I let that get to me. And, you know, rather than thinking about, okay, I have this very hard situation. I have this conflict with someone that is a part of my reality, but I get to choose how I show up in this. And I can choose to be petty and fight this guy, or I can choose to manage those emotions and think about, given the misalignment we have, given our points of view on this, how do I show up in a way that drives the best outcomes for our unit, for our mission, for my Marines? And, you know, it's, I think about that quite often because I've been, I've had that, some version of that a thousand times since. Like we all, we all have situations where there's interpersonal conflict or there are things that don't go your way. And it's so human and so easy to use that an excuse or let that control the way that you show up and surrendering your agency in some respects. And, you know, in that moment, you know, again, I learned a bit, but like, gosh, I, I can still control how I show up. And that's what I should be accountable for. You're actually explaining something to me that I've never really been able to crystallize before, which is just this idea that like high pressure and high stakes lead to sort of more chances for you to be your worst self in some ways. And so like, it sounds like you now are more aware of those triggers that you saw so much of it, both in the military and after that, you can tell when the stakes are high and sort of the world is maybe pushing you around a little to sort of, yeah, maybe make you behave in a way that you weren't proud of, you know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, and I think being, and I, you know, I considered myself to be on the margin, a, I don't know if stoic is the right word, but I, I think I'm, I do a decent job of managing most of the time my emotions, but, but they're there for sure. And there are, I also know for me, I have triggers and different people react different ways. There are things for me that get me from zero to 10 on emotion quickly. And I'm more conscious of what those things are now. You know, and then there are things I think over time where you learn, like, but there are things that you can do to create space for yourself to manage and channel the emotion. Most of it honestly is awareness and time. It's just something as simple of giving yourself, you're in a meeting, things are getting hot. Most of the time you don't need to say the thing or make the decision. You have time and space. And if you can feel your, when I feel myself getting emotional, that's a little bit of a signal to pump the brace. Give yourself time and space. Let the emotions subside a bit so you can be a little more clear headed about how you choose to react. Thank you, Donfall. This is, I mean, every time we talk, I learn from you. And I don't know, what is it about you that always makes me want to be a better person? Well, thank you for having me on. This was so fun. WorkLife is a production of TED and Pushkin Industries. This episode was produced by Isaac Carter and Leah Rose. Van Van Chang is our story editor. Mixing by Hansdale Shee. TED's executive producer is Daniela Balarezo. Constanza Gallardo is the executive producer for Pushkin. Special thanks to Roxanne Hyllash, Valentina Bohanini, Laini Lott, Tonsika Sunmanivong, and Ashley Murphy. If you like the show and want more, come join the discussion on my Substack, Lessons. I'm Molly Graham. Thanks for listening. 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