What's With All The Nostalgia For 2008?

Hey, everyone. So Melody and I have an important favor to ask. Melody, what's going on? OK, you know how on late night shows, the host will ask celebrities to read mean tweets about themselves? This is kind of like that. I was looking at our reviews on Apple Podcasts, and this one made me laugh, but also kind of cringe, so I'm gonna read it to you. The subject line is, what question mark, question mark? It says, I just subscribed to this pod and was looking through the episodes, and they sounded good, but a couple days later, the first episode on my feed from them is about queer romance. That's not what I subscribed for, and from what I can tell, it doesn't seem relative. I think they mean relevant. To the rest of the podcast? Question mark, question mark, question mark. It's just random. So I unsubscribed because that's not what I want to listen to. What in the world is this podcast even about? Question mark, question mark. This podcast is about many things, including queer romance. So we have a huge favor to ask of you as listeners. Whatever app you're listening in now, could you leave a nice review and maybe include what you like about the pod and what you think it's about? Or you can take it in any direction that you'd like. We always say that helps people find the podcast, but I think in this instance, you can help people from unsubscribing because they don't get what they signed up for. OK, so this should only take two minutes. It's actually super easy on whatever platform you use, and it's an easy way to support the show without spending any money. So thank you. Enjoy today's show. This is the Culture Study podcast, and I'm Anne Helen Peterson. And I'm Sochil Gonzalez, the author of Last Night in Brooklyn. All right, we're gonna start very basic. What was your life like in 2007? Oh my gosh, my life was the best. It was the best. I had like alligator arms. I didn't pay for anything. I had all these guy friends, and they paid for everything. Like it was amazing. So all my money was able to go to grooming and wardrobe and rent. And you lived in Brooklyn during this time, let's just be clear. I lived right off of Fort Greene Park. I'm a native Brooklynite. So I'm originally from a much less chic part of Brooklyn, and then I went away to college. And then I literally, much as is written in my book, I was literally seduced by a shopping cart race and a night out in Fort Greene and was like, you know what? This is double my rent, and I don't care. I'm moving here because this is the greatest thing. And it was just fantastic. And I had a job that just wouldn't even exist now because it was so like almost easy. And you could semi-phone it in, but it came with an expense account and the chance to travel. And everybody was really nice. It was great. No, there used to be, we're going to talk about so much of this, but there used to be so much more robust layering in corporations where there were just more jobs doing work, but not robust work. And now every single corporation has become so lean that five jobs are kind of combined into one. And to think though, back to 2007 or to like, I don't know, 1987, how many people were doing this work for sustainable salaries? Like it was just a different reality. Just a different reality. I mean, we had like two secretaries at my first kind of real job. And then you left at mainly a normal time, unless you had something to do. It was just, you really could have a life. And I think that that was the best part. And it's one of these very weird times because then there was a before and an after. And it felt really seismic. So you say, you call this book your new book, which I'm going to ask you to talk about in just a second. But you call the new book the third and you're kind of informal Brooklyn trilogy. And so can you tell us, first of all, what is the vague plot of this new book? Because to me, there absolutely is a plot and there is a narrative. And I was telling you before we started recording that it is so propulsive. I read it. I'm reading so quickly. But it's also so vibey. So like the advertising you've done on Instagram is like, Look at my photos from 2007. I mean, it's so funny because it is very plotty. It's essentially, I went to see a gender swapped production of Company. And it was really bad. I love Company, the Sondheim musical about like a bachelor having a milestone birthday. But they didn't change anything. And I was like, actually, that kind of hinged on that character being a man. Right? I had it thought of, I was like, he needed to be a man for that to work, or you need to change this. And I started thinking about other books that you don't think about the maleness of it, but they do hinge on that. And I was thinking about The Great Gatsby and how Nick is so cagey, but he gets away with it because he just tells you a story like a man. Like it's like, there's a little errant detail that later you're like, wait a second, Nick, that doesn't add up. What were you doing with that man all night? Right? Like it's like, and then Gatsby, like just the very idea that you're going to be like, you know how I'm going to win that woman back? Is bragging about how successful I am. And I was like, a woman would never be able to do that. Like, it doesn't matter how successful she was. That would do nothing. I sort of got really into this idea of what would that be like if you really rethought it based on their gender. And then I was like, what was the last time that the economy just felt so hopeful and the country felt so hopeful and everything felt abundant. And I landed on this time that also was kind of a vibe. Yeah. No, for sure. And especially for like, let's say like the audience of people who are like the most likely to be reading books right now, like literary fiction is like women our age who also experienced this time as like young 20 somethings, right? Yes. Yes. Like, Oh my God. I just, it's so funny because I just was rereading. I was reading for the first time, like Lena Dunham's memoir this morning. And she talks about that first couple of years out of school. And I was like, you know, it's probably a couple of years after this. But I was like, Oh, it was a time. And you just had this sense of opportunity that still hovered over things. And I think it makes me, I said to somebody, the weird part about this book is that the hovering villain was the present. Yes. Because the way in which people engage and are able to engage and like all of these things, you just, the civility of which people debate politics, because there's like a looming election going on. Like the hovering villain that you didn't have to write a word about is the present. And I think that that's partly why we are all kind of feeling these feelings about this moment in time, because we didn't know, a, we didn't know what we had, and we didn't realize all that we were trading in when we were like, yay, Facebook. Oh my gosh, I can check my email from anywhere. From anywhere. That's amazing. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God, this is so cool. And then you're just like, two elections later, and like I'm enslaved to your job, right? Like it's so. Right. Well, and we're going to talk about some of those like larger, like macro shifts, but also there's this feeling in the book of like, when you know, you're like, oh, it's spring 2007. Like the financial crisis is just about to fuck shit up. And like, but it's not there yet. You can like feel the crescendo, right? Yeah. So interesting. But then how like optimism even prevailed during that moment because of Obama, I would say. Oh my gosh, we were, I just was thinking about this this morning and how, you know, especially in that community, like it was like a very kind of black and Latino community. Like I think that we've forgotten what a top down role model the presidency is, like in terms of, you know, like when you think about the Kennedys, like we had like a youth quake in this country because like we had this like handsome president and this like elegant first lady and they were into the arts and like, and suddenly like American young Americans, what was hotter in the world than being a young American, right? But everybody also wanted to be this great version. And it's super subconscious because, you know, Obama basically walked into this giant financial crisis, couldn't really get it turned around as fast as like anybody would want. And yet people still felt great, especially that first term because there was something about like anything can happen. Like we went from a country that was founded on slavery to now electing a black president. And it really, I think, made us feel that we had cracked open possibility. And that is what I actually think we were riding off of, like less than even, you know, the money. Yeah. And I would say like we're talking specifically about, I think, like upwardly mobile, college educated. Totally. Younger people felt this way because I think if you had this conversation about 2007, 2008 with our parents, they would have been like, everything is fucked. Like my mortgage is underwater. What is the future? This was And we're college students. So that idea that like, we were gonna change the world. I think that we felt like we could. And we just forget, like, he was just really cool. Like, you know, like, I was like thinking this, like about like, you know, politicians just, they're so not cool. Like, you know, like now there's like literally whatever the opposite of cool is, like they are. Like, and he just had swag, you know, it's like it felt like, like there was something very, he was relatively young, but there was also something youthful about him because he just had this like confidence that came, I think because he had earned a lot of it. Like, you know, he was so untypical of like, you know, the kind of person that usually gets to this thing. And I think that also made people just feel like, I could kind of do anything and I made this happen. I helped make this happen, right? Like, and I think it makes you feel like you could do anything. What a feeling to have in one of the first political elections that you participate in. Yes. Wait, can I just say one thing also? Like, thank God bless Michelle Obama for wearing J.Crew because it made me always feel a lot better about my H&M work dresses. Right. I was like, why would she's Justin J.Crew and she's the first lady. Yes. No, I, I love the moment, like this point about casual and business casual dresses and H&M because I definitely did that. Like I was a grad student. I couldn't afford anything else, but I wanted to look cute when I was TAing or something like that, you know? And I did like that. It gave me access to a performance. Oh, well, at that phase of my career, I was running a luxury wedding planning business. And so I literally had to dress like a weather woman. And so I would just go to H&M and I would buy a mono-colored sheath dress with like this scoop neck. I mean, they still make it. Like, they still make it. It's so classy. It's so classy. You were ready for anything, right? Like you would kind of go and do anything. And like, things just felt accessible, like the $30,000 a year and being able to go out for drinks every night. Like, there was also, like, I think right now the vibe that I always get when I'm watching young people like on Reels and stuff like is, they are operating in restriction, right? Like, and we were, even on limited, like budgets, living in abundance. Like, I would leave the house with no wallet. Like, I'll be like, I'll run into somebody. Like, you know, like, I was like, because we weren't getting paid a lot, but my male friends were. And we, like, we also had this very, it was funny because it was kind of before we talked about feminism the way that we then started talking about it. Into like girl bossing and Hillary and all this other stuff. And so we had a very open acknowledgement. And like, I took a, talk about this in the book a little bit, like of, like, you are making money that I'm, I'm not seeing. So this feels completely equitable to me that you should pay for us to go out. Like, there was like an ownership and an acknowledgement that went both ways that didn't feel like, that I think sometimes can be perceived now as like a sexist system, but that to us felt quite just. Right. No. And it just, like, I think now we talk about like, oh, people who are making more money should fit more of the bill and like the gender kind of disappears from it. It's just that back then, because of these enduring like splits and like, it was almost entirely men who were, that I knew who were already making that money as well. Right. Like whether it was as consultants or like as investment bankers or whatever. Yes. Also in grad school, though, no one had that money. So we just like, no one, it just, it was always like house parties, which is a different sort of special, you know. It's a different kind of fun. It's a different kind of fun. But that optimism, I really think is really interesting to see like when you have participatory democracy, not to be like corny about it, but like people felt like they were invested in our country because of how many people that volunteered for that campaign. And I think it cascaded. I was also going to say just that the rallies, which now a political rally feels like so cringe and corny in some ways, right? But then, you know, like George W. Bush hadn't had rallies. Like he was like, there was not, you know, like I was in Austin at the time and I went to this enormous rally on the banks of the river and it was like a profound political moment. And that had not occurred in like many, many years. Like even like people talk about Clinton on the stump, not Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton on the stump and like how charismatic he was, but he wasn't having like rallies attracting tens of thousands of people. No, no, no, no. And the energy also, like it's interesting because Obama also served this like symbolic purpose that was like, you felt that in publicly supporting him, you were like saying, this is the America that I'm voting for. Like that we truly see the arc of justice bending in a particular way. And so there was kind of a camaraderie of shared values that made people relax. Like, and I think that that also is what made those rallies have a different energy. You're like, oh, well, I'm here with you and we both chose to spend our time here. And like, right. And so like, like we clearly have this kind of shared vision for what America could be, which is bigger than tax policy. Like or like, right. Like, it's like, like it was, it was, but, and that was through no fault or credit of his. It was just his existence. Like, right. Like, and what that meant. And I'm describing this and I'm realizing what we're talking about was a religious revival. Yeah, no, totally. Not just the rallies themselves, but there was the energy of a religious revival that allowed the very stark precarity that was like in the background, like allowed us to be like, OK, yeah, but also things are going to get better. Yes, yes. That's right. Oh, absolutely. The belief was that things were going to get better. Like 100% the belief is that things were going to get better. And then it was temporary. Like, and I think that that is actually the heartbreak of the moment. Like, you know what it's like? It's like in a family, you don't know when grandma gets sick at Christmas one year, that this is the end of the family structure as you know it. Until like five years, 10 years later, and you're like, it kind of was never the same after grandma got sick at Christmas. Like we didn't know that it wasn't just a bump. It was like a new, a new uncoupling version. Right. And that is kind of a bummer. Well, and that's also the difficulty with looking at what happened during the Obama presidency is that, like, you know, when grandma gets sick at Christmas, sometimes you have to be like, OK, what's the new family structure going to look like? Where are we going to have Christmas now? How are we going to stay together, even though it's just like cousins kind of. Yes. And what we didn't do. And I actually I don't blame Obama for this. I blame like the larger, the larger voting public, Congress, and also maybe some Obama. But like we didn't fundamentally reform our economic system. We didn't punish the banks. Like we didn't regulate the banks thoroughly. And we then kind of ceded everything over to big tech. Right. Like, I think that no, I mean, we say that, but I say that because when I was working on this book, like, it's funny because I would always like if I, before I started it, I'd be like, oh, and all the optimism came from Obama. It came from one and that phase, because I think most of that book is in 07. So actually both he and Hillary were still in the race. Like, right. Like, and it was just the idea of like, we could do this or that. And they're both insane and amazing. But like when I was done with the book, what I really realized was the special sauce. And actually this is kind of in the Lita Dedda memoir is the power of being around people in a physical way, like on a continual basis that tell you, you're going to finish this PhD and like you're going to like, and it's going to be amazing. And when you're on the other side of it, don't like, don't you even worry. And not, they're not just saying it because they're like, go girl. They're saying it because you're hanging out with them two or three times a week. And you're like, I feel like, what's the point? And they're like, no, don't forget that. Like you have real relationships. And I think we don't realize how much I think that that's been the economy. Yes. Like capitalism, all these things. But I think that ceding over our fundamentals of friendship to digitized versions, I think has not helped us restore that at all. No. And this gets to the Brooklyn part of the question, right? And part of the reason there was this energy there. I mean, part of it is just like, OK, so Brooklyn was a place that was now affordable in I mean, I know people who pay 40 to 50% of their income. And honestly, I don't know any young people that are in the city that aren't subsidized. Like, I know one young woman at The Atlantic who has a second job, but other than that person, everybody else I know is pretty much subsidized. Like, they are receiving financial help from parents. Like, and, you know, like, the average amount of help, like, I think it used to be like, you'd be like, oh, somebody's on their parents' friends and family plan. Like, oh, great, you don't have a cell phone bill. But now I think the national average for parental output is almost $1,500 a month support. Like, yeah. What I would have done with $1,500 a month. Like, that, like, and that's kind of just across the board. So, like, you know, you see people. And it really has become a city of the very wealthy, but partly it's because, to your point, like, the salaries actually haven't gotten that much better. Like, for a lot of these jobs. So Melody did some inflation math and like, $30,000, if you were earning $30,000 in March 2008, has the same buying power. Now that's $46,000. So the median annual income for workers in the U.S. in 2008 was around $50,000, and now it's $62,000. So, like, the work that I will do. And then you have so many more job applicants for so many more jobs. And then you have things like AI sorting through the applications. And then you have things like AI sorting through the applications. AI sorting through the applications, the way that they sort is by looking for things like where'd you get your degree? It's so true. It's so true. Oh my gosh. And then I think this is like probably a topic for another day, but I'm like, and then after all these generations of being conditioned to go through this and then to have somebody like the CEO of Palantir be like, unless you're neurodivergent, don't bother with school. Like, like what is this? I feel like we're on the brink of 10 million people being unhoused again, but like, it's like a different version of it. And I just don't know what we do with all those hopes and dreams and preparation that so many families have engaged in over this next generation. Like you get a whole country kind of at a precipice and then pull a rug out from under them. And I just don't know what that does to our psyche. And yeah, nothing good. The Culture Study podcast is sponsored by Ollie. Guess what yesterday was, Melody? 420? What? It was. No, it was 420 and 420 is Steve's birthday, Steve's a dog. Oh, happy birthday, Steve. I mean, it's a made-up birthday because you know, when you adopt a dog, they're kind of like, we don't really know when this litter happened. And so we knew that it was sometime around like late April. So we thought, what's a day that we will always remember? Because sometimes it's hard to remember your dog's birthday because they're not like, it's my birthday, it's my birthday. So we picked 420 blaze it just so that we can remember. But Steve is seven. And as I've talked about in other ads for Ollie, he is just a picky eater. He's got a sensitive stomach. But one thing that always absolutely piques his hunger is when he hears a little plastic of the Ollie package opening up. He loves Ollie. And for his birthday, we were like, let's save Steve's favorite, which involves blueberries, is the Ollie that has blueberries just for him. 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Tell them all about your dog and use code culture to get 70% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus they offer an obsession guarantee. If you're not completely obsessed, you'll get your money back. That's O-L-L-I-E.com slash culture and enter code culture to get 70% off your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession. This is actually a great tee up to thinking about hustle culture, which is going to be our last question. So this one comes from Rachel. What is the relationship between 2008 optimism and millennial hustle culture? In 2008, I had just finished my first year of law school and it was my first summer living in DC. We received so many messages. Work hard, play hard, get involved in politics, network. Side note, is this why we all were wearing business casual to bars and clubs? The other message was no way are we paying interns and you must look and act professional at all times and be careful what you post on Facebook. It was a wild time. It all seems so quaint now. I've thought so much about this because I think the way that most millennials and I think some young Gen X, and I would love to hear your perspective on this, is like, we reacted to the lack of jobs. Some people were like, this is fucked up. Let's do Occupy Wall Street. But then the vast majority, and I think this is in part because we were raised by boomers, said, oh, I'm just going to work harder for less money. 100%. Like, 100%. Like, I literally had one of my very good friends from high school was like in Occupy. Like, you know, like she was like living down there and I remember meeting her for coffee. Like, she left like the thing and like, you know, and we met up for coffee and she was like, you of all people should really be down there with us. Like, you have like this small business and like you were so like, and I was like, but then how will I make money if I'm sitting down in the park with you? Like, like, you know, like, I mean, and that was like a very direct example, because like, if we weren't making the money, there was no money. But like, like, it was only when thinking back and doing the research for the nonfiction book that I was like, oh my God, this is really messed up. But I do think the problem is, and part of why this moment is so traumatizing for so many of us is we fully believed, in fact, the poor, poor Barack Obama meaning so many things to so many people. Like that he's just a man. He's just an overdetermined, an overdetermined symbol. Yes. Like, but he, in a lot of ways, he was the symbol that the system works. You know, he wrote a book and this made them prosperous. And, you know, like, and now they have like, they're winning at capitalism. They're winning at all these things. Like, they're winning America. And we were like, the system works. And literally we've now then, we doubled down on that for like another decade almost, right? Like, into COVID. And then the wheels have just fallen off the whole thing. Like, it's like, like, and so now we're like, what are you talking about? Like, and I think so many people have like, ostrich syndrome and their head is like, they're like, I don't, like, how can this whole thing that I wrapped everything up in not mean anything or function? Like, and it's so hard to look at. And are like confused because they're like, what do you mean I did all the things I was supposed to do to be like a successful bourgeois person? And now, AI is taking away the like college educated jobs with the spirit, right? And this is the thing about the recession, the 2008 recession, is that it was like, so many of the jobs that were lost were working class jobs. And now it's like, how dare they take away these jobs? Well, even honestly, like, I did a profile on Andrew Yang recently for The Atlantic. And part of why I wanted to talk to him is I was like, it's so weird that way back in 2019, he was like, AI is going to take all these car drivers' jobs, these truck driving jobs, and like, what are we gonna do in UBI? And I'm like, and now nobody talks about UBI at all, or anything. Nobody talks about any solutions. Like, there is no discussion of solution. No, it's just like, who's right? Is it gonna do it instead of like, Is it gonna do it? No, we're all just like, you know what it feels like the scene in Austin Powers when the steamroller is coming at him and he's like, no! Like, and it's moving so slowly. Like, it's like, no! And like, I said to Andrew, I was like, well, you know, even you didn't think it was gonna come for the white collar jobs. And you know, Andrew is so charming, but he doesn't like to be wrong. So he's like, well, I mean, I just thought it was gonna come for the blue collar jobs first. And I was like, because you never, nobody, you were conditioned your whole life that if you do these things, the problems aren't gonna come for you because now you've not just become an earner in society, but you did so in this respectable, highbrow way. And so therefore you were insulated from this. And like, it's like, and I think that it is traumatizing to feel like suddenly also be told that that whole thing is meaningless. And like, and, you know, and I, I don't know what ends up happening with college because I'm like, does this just become a thing like in the days of our founding fathers where it's just like a place for the very elite to kind of go and ponder? Yeah, life of the mind. Life of the mind. Exactly. I, some of the docs that I've been trying to connect in my head too are like, I wrote this piece a couple weeks ago about all of these women who've been doing their husband's job searching for them and why like the men, like the men do no longer have the robust social networks to like reach out or professional networks. And I'm thinking about how also the sort of work that we threw ourselves into was the all-consuming sort that like, I'm thinking of even like investment bankers who didn't necessarily want to live like, you know, in Murray Hill or down on Wall Street. And so they then became the people who could afford to live in Brooklyn, but they're working 18-hour days. They're never home. Yep. They don't have any social lives. They're not we do the actual clip. I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a career, I don't want to do that. This is a great place for us to come full circle, just in terms of, like, some of the hope is, like, maybe there's a new way forward that isn't what our parents, what has made our parents miserable. That's right. I think that that's right. And I am trying to think about this moment in time, less focusing on the end of something and more like, how do we learn the lessons of the past 15 to 20 years and build in a better, build, build back better? Like, but make it interesting. Yeah. Like, I really feel like we have a moment of opportunity, and I've never seen people in mass seem so cognitive about where we've gone wrong, which is very exciting, actually. It's like a very exciting thing. Okay, so we have this small bonus segment. It's called the Ask Anna Anything. And we have a question about lifestyle creep. And I think because of the intersection of your current fiction book and your new nonfiction book, I think you're going to be the perfect person for this one. Can you stick around and answer it with me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so listeners, if you're not a paid subscriber and you want to hear this, go to patreon.com slash cultures study to sign up. And so Jill, this has been such a delight. Everything I wanted or expected and more. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. This is so fun. I can't thank you enough. Where can people find you on the internet if they want to hear more from you? I am mainly on Instagram and it is so chill the G X O C H I T L the G. And I am, according to Alison Stewart, opinionated. We love it. We love it. Thanks for listening to the culture study podcast. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts because we have so many great episodes in the works and I promise you don't want to miss any of them. If you want to suggest a topic, ask a question about the culture that surrounds you or submit a question for our subscriber only advice time segment, go to our Google form at tinyurl.com slash culture study pod or check the show notes for a link. And if you want to support the show and get bonus content, head to patreon.com slash culture study. It's five bucks a month or $50 a year, and you'll get ad-free episodes and exclusive advice time segment and weekly discussion threads for each episode. The culture study podcast is produced by me, Anne Helen Peterson and Melody Rowell. Our music is by Podington Bear. You can find me on Instagram at Anne Helen Peterson, Melody at Melodyus47, and the show at Culture Study Pod.