Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams" with Sam Sanders

One, two, three. acoustic guitar plays Hey there, we're going live It's us, the guys from One Song We're talking dreams by Fleetwood Mac It's luxury diablo and our friend Sam Sanders Watch us carefully break it down Here on On Airfest K-C-R-W On Airfest And if you know this song sing along And what you had And what you lost I think you guys know these lyrics And what you had Everyone together! Here we go! And what you lost Let's do it! Thunder only happens when it's raining Players only love you when they're playing Say women, they will come and they will go When the rain washes you clear You'll know You'll know You'll know laughter & applause Alright, alright! On Airfest, let's go! Y'all surprised me with that! Oh, thank you! Welcome, y'all. It's great to have you here. It's so fun to see real people. Yes, welcome to KCRW On Airfest! Thank you, KCRW. Thank you, On Airfest. In conjunction with Heartbeat, One Song, and our good, good friend Sam here. Hi! For those who don't know me, I'm writer, director, actor, and sometimes DJ, Dialla Riddle. And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter, and guy who whispers interpolation, luxury. Hello. And new KCRW DJ, every Friday at 10 p.m. That's right, that's right. Can I just say, as a friend, two masterful episodes already I've heard. You're doing such a good job. Today, we're so excited to be doing this show in front of a live studio audience at KCRW On Airfest. We're going to be diving deep into one of the most hauntingly beautiful breakup songs of all time. Any of y'all been in a breakup? Make some noise! Yeah! That's right, this is the song that reminds us all that players only love you when they're playing, and women, they come and go. Apparently. Or when they're riding a skateboard with a bottle of ocean spray. That's right. Let's not forget that seminal moment. We're talking one song, and that song is Dreams by Fleetwood Mac. Yeah! You're only helpless when it's raining Yamaha Resort & Casino at San Manuel is making dreams come true. Out of my dreams Earn entries all December long for a dream luxury car. Then on January 2nd, one Club Serrano member will win the luxury car of their dreams. Lambo, Rolls Royce, the possibilities are endless. Now is the time to ask yourself, what is your dream car? It just might be waiting for you at Yamaha Resort & Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You in? Details at Yamaha.com Must be 21 to enter. Please gamble responsibly. This episode is brought to you by Diet Coke. You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh? An ice-cold Diet Coke isn't just a break. It's your chance to catch your breath and savor a moment that's all about you. Always refreshing. Still the same great taste. Diet Coke. Make time for you time. You never get tired of the song. And yet, are you a little tired of the song? Never. Well, we're going to break it down. You're going to hear it like you've never, ever heard it before. And here to help us break this song down, as we sang, we've invited a special friend of the pod. He is a big Sleepwood Mac fan. Please welcome award-winning reporter, radio host, and podcaster extraordinaire, Sam Sanders. Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming on the show, Sam. We really appreciate it. Yes. I mean, when y'all asked me, I was like, okay, I like these guys. And they were like, it's going to be Sleepwood Mac. And I was like, okay. And then they were like, it's going to be Dreams. And I said, yeah, I'd pay you to do this. It's one of the best songs of all time. One of the best songs of all time. But there are two songs, favorite Sleepwood Mac songs of all time that you have, right? You've stated many times. Why is it neck and neck between this one? What's the other one? Tell the audience. The other one is Silver Springs. Okay. Wow. Which I think is the emotional sequel or continuation of Dreams. And with both songs. She wrote it. She wrote it. He wouldn't let it get on the album. Exactly. She waited for 30 years to get that song on a Fleetwood album and then made him perform it live with her. And you can see the two of them locked in a visual embrace the whole time. And Stevie's like, I won. Yeah. She kind of won. Yeah. What I love about Dreams and Stevie and Fleetwood Mac is that they are, at their best, the platonic ideal of like white chaos. White rage. I like it. Good night, everybody. That's the show. We're not going to talk about it. They do this thing that I wish all white people did when they're feeling messy. Fleetwood Mac turned the mess into art. What a great way to live a life. The mess was music. Now they turn it into podcasts. Real quick. Sam, by the way, I heard that that was her after she heard Go Your Own Way. Oh, yeah. That was the answer to it. Yeah, that was her answer. So those two songs. What Tupac had was Hit Em Up. That was her Hit Em Up. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, it's also beautiful, it's like her version of their breakup was dreams. His version was Go Your Own Way. And it just proves this universal truth that there are many truths when it comes to a breakup. And all of these truths can be beautiful. Yeah. I don't know. It's like the best way to do a breakup. Fleetwood Mac. Sam, how did your love of Fleetwood Mac begin? I grew up really Pentecostal. And so all of my music appreciation and education had to kind of come secretly when mom wasn't home because my dad didn't care. But very early on, VH1 kind of raised me and behind the music was a big part of my education. And I'll never forget the Fleetwood Mac behind the music. Yes, it's a classic. I was like, how are these people so messy? How many of you guys have seen that episode? It's so good. If you remember that show, that's sort of the ultimate episode. Yeah, and I really latched on to dreams and the entire album, Rumors, but it got to the point where I could hear that opening drum lick and I would know right away. Oh, yeah, I'm in. I'm there. We can talk about it. And I've had the experience of showing young people in my life or playing for them for the first time dreams. And you watch the moment when they realize it's perfect and you're like, oh, this is why we're here on earth, to tell young people about Fleetwood Mac. It really is a perfect song. It's 48 years old, this song, and it still feels fresh. It never gets old. It never gets old. It feels like it's captured a real moment, both in the relationship of Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham. That's the he that we've been mentioning so far. We'll be getting deep into the stories of these people. But it's also, the whole band, there's a lot going on. 48 years later, you can still feel the tension in the song and in the beauty of the song. And it's a very simple song. When she first wrote it, I think Christine McVeigh was like, this song is too simple. It's three chords, where is the melody? And it's perfect in its simplicity. So people really think that the drums on this song are particularly haunting. And they're very haunting and hypnotic because they took, I want to say, eight bars of the drums and just looped it. That's it. That's wild. That's incredible. It worked. It puts you in a trance. We're going to be getting deep, deep, deep into each of those layers. We'll be playing for you the isolated parts. tracks and the bass and the vocals, but we'll be getting into that story in particular, because you're absolutely right, that contributes in big part to the hauntingness, the hypnoticness. Yeah. Real quick, I wanna ask, how many of you, I'm gonna play a video for you real quick. How many of you know this song, because we got some younger people here, I see some young faces. How many of you know this song from this viral TikTok video? ♪ Now he is a lover of mine ♪ Wait, wait, that's not the right one. Oh, cut, cut, we can't embarrass my friend like that, come on. All right. Let's watch the whole thing anyway. Listen. Cut, cut, that's not the video we wanted. I'm so glad you didn't injure yourself. I almost died, I almost died. It was worth it for the comedy, though. That was not, I've never ridden a skateboard in my life. Wait, can we play the proper, I don't know, yes, there we go. There's the one. Nathan Apodaca, aka Dogface. So COVID era, it's so COVID coded. And like, it speaks to the power of this song. This is a breakup song, this is a heartbreak song, and old boy is just like vibing and cruising into it. He's just vibing. That's how good this song is. Drinking his ocean spray cranberry. Yes, yes. It's incredible. It's already like a pop culture classic right there. No, listen. COVID coded. Before we dive into the music, we thought we'd have a little fun with a quick round of Fleetwood Mac trivia. First question, are you ready? All right, that's not the first question. First question, true or false, Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham joined Fleetwood Mac almost a decade after the band had been around? Yes. That is true. That is correct. And in fact, for those who don't know, Fleetwood Mac was a going concern for a decade before Lindsey and Stevie joined in 1975. And they started as a British blues band. And by the way- And they were good. And they were good. They were actually really good. That's absolutely right. Peter Green wrote the first Black Magic Woman, made more famous by Santana, but they had hits. They had hits. Yeah, let's play one of them. This is one of my favorites, even though I just said they were notoriously or well-known for being a blues band. One of my favorite tunes, which you may recognize, is this one, which is on the more chill side. This is Albatross. Before there was Krongbin, there was Albatross. This is what they were playing in Ojai, in every hotel in Ojai. Let me tell you. I was gonna say, this is like desert road riding. It's so desert road riding, for wealthy people. Play too much of that, we will fall asleep. Soporific. Yeah. That's a soporific tune. Densmore is 80. John Densmore is 80. Okay. John Densmore, The Doors was 80. Well, I got question number two for you, Sam Sanders. Yes. All right, so the band, as we've just been discussing, went through previous incarnations before the famous Five that we know to this day. Yes. Do you know how many guitar players Fleetwood Mac had in their illustrious career? Can you name? I have no idea, but I'm gonna say seven. That's a great guess. Super close. Actually, I stopped counting at eight. Okay. But with founder Peter Green, there was also Jeremy Spencer, Bob Welch, Rick Vito, Billy Burnett. Bob Welch. Of course, Lindsey Buckingham. Yes. Mike Campbell from Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers has come back and forth taking his place. When Buckingham has recently been booted and then been reintegrated, Campbell was his replacement for a while. All right, next question, true or false, Christine McVie used to write reviews for a music magazine before she joined Fleetwood Mac. True. Unfortunately, this is false. I told you I was gonna nail you, man. He gotcha. She was already an established musician when she joined the band, so you'll get the next one, I'm sure. And fun fact, her maiden name, do you happen to know this? No. Well, this is for my dad who's in the audience. He loves the fact that Christine's maiden name was perfect, so she was Christine Perfect. Christine Perfect. And yet she changed it to McVie. Yeah, there he is. To me, he called onto that last name. Yeah. Mistake. All right, we got next question coming up here. True or false, every member of Fleetwood Mac was either divorcing, breaking up, or having an affair with another member- That is very true. Of Fleetwood Mac during the rumors era. That is very true. This is very true. Just for those of you who don't know, Stevie and Lindsey had broken up right before the making of the record. Christine and John on keyboards and bass, respectively, the McVies, had divorced. Mick started an affair with Stevie during rumors, the drummer Mick Fleetwood, cheating on his wife, Jenny Boyd, in the process, whose sister- White chaos. Whose sister, Patty Boyd, was cheating on her husband, George Harrison, left him for Eric Clapton, and that's how we get Layla. What? Yes. Also, there should be a rule. If you are in a band, and you're having relationship issues with other folks in the band, you have to stay in the band, because then you make rumors. Because then you get these beautiful, perfect records. You can't break up. Yeah. Well, you can break up, but you must stay together right about that. It would be wise not to break up for the sake of the argument. Yeah, yeah. Every band should have to stay together throughout the show. Peripheral question, not on our question list, question for you, I've been thinking about this. Yeah. I'm obsessed with it. Is Fleetwood Mac a British band, or are they an American band? No, they're American. America loves Fleetwood Mac more than anybody else. But it was founded in Britain by British people. I don't care, so was America, kind of, if you think about it. Ah, all right. Fair clap back, that's a nice. That's fair. That's fair. Next question, thanks. We won Fleetwood Mac in the war. In the Revolutionary War of 1975. It was written. Yeah. All right, do you know why they called the album Rumors? Well, because of the rumors. It's not, it's very close. We'll give it to him. So John McVie, yeah, let's give it to him. 100 points. Four out of five, four out of five. Someone out here is keeping track. John McVie suggested the album. They were making it be called Rumors because they were all writing songs about one another without actually admitting it. But he called it out. You can literally go through the entirety of the track list. We've got Go Your Own Way, Secondhand News, Never Going Back Again, all Lindsay versus Stevie. Stevie claps back, by the way, fun fact, was dating Dunhenley at the time. Dreams, Silver Springs, I Don't Want to Know, Gold Dust Woman. But Silver Springs didn't make an album until the 90s. That's right. Fair point, fair point. So that's kind of like an also- One of the reasons why he kept it off the air. He was like, no, not that. Too much. But let's not forget that we had Christine McVie as a songwriter. The third songwriter breaking up with her husband, John, on bass, wrote Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow. It's about John. Wow. It's not about Bill Clinton and A Better Tomorrow. It's about John McVie. Oh Daddy is about Mick leaving Jenny, the aforementioned Mick Fleetwood leaving the Jenny Boyd, that other relationship. And then she wrote You Make Love and Fun, not about John McVie, but about her affair with the band's lighting director. What? That's right, lighting directors. What were their signs? Hooking it up. Hooking it up. What were their signs? I see you, Jack. Okay. What were their horoscope signs? That's a great question. I don't know. I have to know. If anyone knows, just yell it out. Would that solve everything? Because I have a theory. All right, last one, Sam. That's a hard one. It's a hard one. True or false, this song was originally called Spinners because Stevie Nicks thought it sounded like a song by the Spinners. Really? Sure. No. It's true. Oh wow. It's true. Luxury, can we hear? Yeah, so Stevie Nicks, apparently when she first wrote the song, she was vibing on the two chord vamp that we'll be talking about a little bit later. And in her mind, she's like, oh yeah, that kind of reminds me of that Spinners tune, which I will now play for you. Let's see if we think that there's any connection between them. The Spinners. You know what? I get it. I love when this happens. My favorite of this happening, when Prince was about to record Purple Rain, he called Journey to be like, I think this song, the chords sound too much like- Faithfully. Like faithfully. And Journey was like, it's okay dude, make your song. Good answer. Also, I love this tangent, Dave Grohl says that all of his drumming from Nevermind was just the gap vamp. The gap vamp. Fucking amazing. But I thought when you brought up Prince, I thought you were going to mention the fact that he's probably the person playing keyboards on Stevie Nicks' stand back. Oh, he is? Yeah, stand back. Yeah, she heard Little Red Corvette and she was like, I love this song. And then they connected. And Prince ran to the studio and laid down all these keyboard parts like that. Laid it down. Laid it down, though. Leave it there. And when you go back and listen to stand back now, you're like, I can hear the Prince. Yeah. The Prince influences. Let's get our tally. You got three. You are officially a Fleetwood Mac fan. Should we call you a Big Mac? What do we call that? Fleetheads? Call me a rumor. Everybody's like, ooh, nice one. All right, guys, so if you're new to Fleetwood Mac. from the trivia questions. This is a band with quite the storied and yes, dramatic career. So in the Rumors era, the lineup consisted of, as we've mentioned, founding member Mick Fleetwood on drums, John McVie on bass. And for those of you who didn't know this, that's where the name comes from, Fleetwood and Mack, as in McVie. So that was the rhythm section. When John brought in his wife, Christine Perfect, AKA McVie, it was all British. And I guess the crossover into Americana happened when Lindsey and Stevie joined. Lindsey, according to the tale, they had just recorded Silver Springs and he saw Mick Fleetwood. And Mick Fleetwood happened to be, I believe, listening to Silver Springs and he liked the sound of it. He said, oh, that's my tune. If you dig it, you know, I'm glad you like it. And then later got a phone call from Mick saying, would you like to join the band? And famously said, I would love to, but only if you bring my girlfriend. So Lindsey and Stevie were a package deal. And that's how we have the iconic lineup that we know and love to this day. Why isn't there a reality show that recreates those dynamics? Like you bring musicians who the judges know have been like sleeping together. Do you find, do you find couples, I'm sorry, I know that, do we find couples that are fucking and then make them do music? Can I say that on a fair basis? You just did. It happened. You just did. I'll start using my Warren Olney voice. Or do you find like great musicians and get them to sleep together? Both. There's two houses. Okay. Okay. Then half way through the season, you flip the houses and you make it all crazy. Did he get like, people sleep together who are really bad musicians? Yes. I love it. Yes. So the five of these wonderful individuals recorded Rumors at the Record Plan in Sausalito over the course of a year. And things were tense to put it mildly. As we've mentioned before, everyone's relationships were falling apart and they were literally writing songs about each other while still showing up to sing beautiful harmonies together. So when we get back, we're going to take a quick break, but when we get back, we're going to hear not only Stevie's beautiful isolated vocals, the amazing musicianship. We will also hear Sam tell us why this song has stood the test of time. 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Welcome back to One Song. We're about to dive into the stems of dreams, penned by Stevie Nicks. The story goes, she wrote it all in one afternoon, tucked away in Sly Stone's room at the record plant. While the rest of the band was recording, Stevie sat alone in that room with a keyboard and came up with this hypnotic spell of a song. Stevie said, quote, I found a drum pattern, switched my little cassette player on, and wrote dreams in about 10 minutes. Isn't that always the way? It's always like, yeah, we wrote that last song. It was a thriller. Also, the room was wild. She said it was a black and red room with a sunken pit in the middle. And a bed. With a piano and a big black velvet bed with Victorian drapes. What? The 70s loved a sunken pit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Relationships in Fleetwood Mac. Sunken pits. The sunken place, exactly, yeah. We don't have that first demo, do we? We don't have that first demo, unfortunately, but you did allude to this great quote. We do know that it was very simple. And wonderfully, Christine McVie says, when Stevie first played the on the piano, it was just three chords and one note in the left hand. And I thought, this is really boring. But then the Lindsay genius came into play. So Lindsay helped her develop the song. And this, by the way, just to remind everybody, not only had they broken up, but Stevie broke his heart. And the song was about him. Yeah. And he's like, I'll help you. This is a big act of artistic generosity to participate in turning this two chord thing that Christine was rolling her British eyes at and turning it into the masterpiece that we know it today. And we'll be getting into that in just a moment in great detail. Would either of you make a song with an ex? I don't think so. That's just too intimate. I mean, you can be so vulnerable. I got one version of him. Oh, yeah? Sing it, damn it. It could be a power trip. It's true. Yeah. You take control. Yeah. It'd be like an ABBA situation, actually. That's literally what ABBA was. Sing it. Yeah. We are going to now play for you an early version of the song as it was known at the time as Spinners. This is an early take as according to the story, they ran about 24 takes and then the last one they thought was perfect. So we're going to hear a little bit of, I don't know which take this is, but you will recognize some things and some things will sound a little bit different. ♪ Well, whoever I keep you down ♪ It's pretty fully formed as a song, but it's just three layers of music. And just sort of like, because it's fun for us obsessives, there's one like lyric that ended up changing later. So I'll play it for you. See if you can identify the lyric that changed. ♪ Now here I go again, see the crystal changing ♪ ♪ Now here I go again, see the crystal changing ♪ Right? Crystal changes? Crystal vision is so like iconic. It also feels like this version is really just hanging on two chords. Lindsay's final version does three, it feels like. It barely does the third one. We're going to get into that, but you're nailing part of it. But part of the magic of, I think what the whole band was able to contribute to the core idea, which was so solid, is to give it, it was really that third chord that made it cohesive feeling. But I will also weigh in and say that maybe it's the DJ and me. sound way more prominent than the drums that eventually filled it. Like this honestly feels like a disco remix of Dreams. Yeah it's super hypnotic and you're right it's a little less pop sounding and more dance floor but there's no bass there's no bass quite yet. Well let's get into the stem. So Mick Fleetwood plays the drums, plays the congas. I'd forgotten there were congas in this song. Oh I love the congas. They're pretty buried but they're there. All right so let's start with the kick and snare was recorded separately from the hi-hat and I'll explain to you what that means. The hi-hat and the toms and then you alluded to it there's a whole story about the hypnoticness that was amped up with a very clever ahead of its time recording technique but here's Mick Fleetwood. So that's both tracks but here's just he overdubbed the hi-hats and snare and was just playing kick and snare separately and then they merged them together for the final and it's super sparse super simple. Let me tell you you mentioned it so let's just jump into it that loop in 1977 if you wanted to have a loop like what today would be a drum machine or a splice loop yeah and you throw it in there and you copy and paste it yeah back then copy and paste meant cutting with like you got 20 feet of magnetic audio tape yeah you got eight guys around the studio to get that 20 feet because they had to pull it tight so they had microphone stands and they were like their arms were up and they're holding their breath for four and a half minutes recording one eight bar loop of Mick Fleetwood getting it perfectly for eight bars wow and then that was that's the basis of the entire song yeah so this is in 1977 this is kind of it's a hip-hop technique it's a breakbeat I also love like the opening it's like it's telling you get the fuck up you're about to hear dreams every time I hear it I'm like sonar it's on let's go let's go there aren't too many other songs that start off like that I know that song in one second yeah it's a signature motif yeah and that was overdubbed I believe because for the four and a half minutes you just have this bedrock of yeah that boom bat and then he went in Mick Fleetwood went in and overdubbed all the fills that are so iconic and that give it the interest so that it isn't just simply a hypnotic beat hypnotic is great but hypnotic after a while is soporific it's back to albatross land which is great too great song sleepy too you got that word you didn't want to sleep that's a great word very impressed so a lot of by the way full credit we on our show on one song we like to give full credit to what we call unsung heroes so Ken Calais wrote this great book called making rumors super detailed super nerd fest I highly recommend it it's just about the making of this record and that's how we get some of the detail about eight dudes and microphone stands and 20 feet like those details that we know and love on this show all came from him so he's a co-producer and the father of Colby Gaia as well by the way I was wondering yeah I kept seeing that name okay same dude same family yeah yeah one of the things I like the most about the drums of this are the are the congas play that for me because because I because I if you listen I mean like those congas I do believe it's pronounced thank you Melissa is it congas Melissa taught us to say congas correctly it's not congas California congas can we hear a little bit of the congas I'm gonna play you some congas it's mixed in with some other stuff it's one of these tracks that's a little bit mixed up but you'll hear them in the background along with um I believe some organ and some cool lindsey weird sounds my lord is coming oh there it is super background there it is that's in the song yeah so that's a b3 organ played by Christine McVie but then there's little swells that are coming in and out are lindsey playing guitar with his fingers finger picking because he doesn't use a pick so that's why it gives it a very soft feeling and it's all going through like a leslie speaker I never heard the congas that's so funny because maybe because I have been a drummer I always notice those congas in there yeah and you'll you'll hear them now that you know that they're there they're louder in some parts than others yes for sure yeah really post second verse okay let's talk about the uh what's happening with the keys here now in our notes it says a rose but I heard you just say ham and b3 well they're both in there let's start with the roads though I believe it's stevie playing the record credits it's one of those things where two names are on there so like who did what is not always clear I'm pretty sure though given that Christine McVie has talked about the origins of the song it was weird to her that there was just this f bass note the whole time you'll hear that Christine is playing two chords the whole time the entire time but she's interestingly not moving the bass along with it you'll hear it and it'll make sense here it comes stevie nicks fender roads see how the chord goes up but the bass is still so we're already in super hypnotic lands and that's the whole song by the way so good in the chorus she changes it's beautiful because it's like it's it's it's never given you resolution it's no resolution you're nailing that low fender note is hanging tension on the four which is just a note of no resolution it wants to go to five it wants to go to three and they're just hanging there saying yeah that's heartbreak bit I'm glad you said that no resolution no resolution you'll never be resolved you'll never be resolved we won't keep saying this all the episode this is structurally it's such a weird song because like usually like a song like this would have like some crazy bridge that was like almost like a different song but like this song literally it starts she sings the verse they go to the chorus it starts over she sings one more verse one more chorus like when you finish that first verse the song is halfway over both literally and figuratively it's like about 202 mark and the song's like 404 so like yeah it's just enough and like you said it's left unresolved totally unresolved let's move to the chorus and hear some more unresolved and there's a drone that gets added uh i'll just play it for you and then we'll talk about it that's yeah add the chord you hear she sort of switched she's like the high part of the five yeah the bass note is now changing it's going to record is not changing yeah she just flipped what she keeps the same and that's essentially the whole of you can hear like her anguish is like girl let me do this there's more than two chords in the world let me do this and then finally because we've all been alluding to it there's this really crucial bridge so this is the setup for what will be the punchline will come later so to speak but this bridge is the moment as you were saying the midpoint of the song first chorus bridge middle eight eight bars first second chorus that's the whole song very simple and it's the same two chords the whole time in this bridge in the roads she just keeps doing the same thing and that f is still nagging it's like this nagging it's like her she won't go away he won't go away that f is just nagging and persistent yeah so that's that's the setup we'll resolve that in a moment because somebody saved the day another unsung hero of the song gives us the third chord that only briefly appears in the bridge but it's not there yet and in it what's interesting about going back to the demo is in the demo it didn't exist yet either so our unsung hero is a band member who's like i'm gonna play one different note just momentarily breaking up this unresolved tension and then we'll get right back into it for the last half of the song yeah yeah well let's listen to some uh christine mcveigh on uh interestingly enough you may not have noticed she plays the vibraphone in the pre-chorus i'll play you a little bit of that by itself and then i'll build for context and then we already teased this a little bit before but then you can hear her b3 organ playing in that section let me see if i can find you like a new a new version of it here we go that high note is is the b3 organ but stevie high oregon vibraphone it's like the roy ayers episode it's super roy ayers it's also 1977 Instruments of the of the era. Well, and also like the beauty of that song is that like all of it works so well together You don't hear the pieces. You just hear this wonderful wall of Fleetwood Mac. Yeah, it's so it washes over It washes over you and if you were if you would ask any fan of that song name all the instruments you hear in this So, let's go back to Lindsey for a moment because as mentioned before when Stevie handed her demo to him And played it for him for the first time and some of his contributions Were very simple at first It was just a basic acoustic guitar not dissimilar to what I played at the top of our show But gradually over time because they it was 1977 and it was lots of money for the budget So many months of overdubs, they were in Sausalito, but they also did some in LA and what emerged was this really beautiful strange Swells and bends that are sound more than they are like clearly a guitar I'll play some of that for you. And of course, you'll recognize it because it makes the song very early on what it is Melodic Before the vocals come in this is the melody No, well he's playing guitar but he's playing with his fingers, okay and between that and some other treatments I believe there's a tremolo. I believe there's my there's certainly a Leslie There's all of these effects basically on the guitar guitar that contribute to it not sounding very guitar It sounds like Sausalito. It's not very foggy If there was one that made me not listen to this song, yeah, it was probably this song I love that part. Oh, here's the thing. I grew up in Atlanta. This one element sounded like country music I was gonna say But they would do the Grammys they would like present like the country award my mom was always like bathroom break But in our defense Country fans of the South were not it to us. See I love a good steel guitar moment. I'm all about that I love it. I'm like Let's give a little more shine to Lindsey because of the beautiful things he did in the pre-chorus Which is where we heard that vibraphone before he does this and as always I'll build after I play it by itself He makes it walk so we get to that third chord we're going FG to a minor and then that we're teasing the a-minor. Yes Yes, we're teasing the a-minor and I promised you the bills You know, what's so interesting as that happened I was like that sounds like a train wreck but it's in the song What he's doing is building. He's rising. What's he doing? He's building. He's building But it's in the song What he's doing is building. He's rising. Yeah, the chords are going up basically. Yeah, and so is In the vibes so is Chris, but Stevie is not and so there's a little bit of a rub Which is why I love doing the show Yeah, because for music producers and songwriters out there the demonstration that some of the most iconic songs of all time Yeah have like things that are imperfections Technically not wrong, but like to your ear here. I'll just play with you what I'm talking about. Here's the roads And then when I add those other things, he'll be like, is that right? Because she's just playing the two chords, but these guys are rising It sounds great, there's nothing wrong with it at all what do you say in interesting? We're in it's kind of F major 7 Yeah to g6 ish in the chorus, but there's also like that e drone going on in there Which makes it the F minor 7th. Basically, it's super tense chords Yes, that cycle through one bar per chord the whole song without resolving until our unsung hero Our unsung hero comes into play and that's my man. Johnny McVie Who starts out innocently enough with two notes Johnny plays the two notes? Little eighth note anticipation Little fills, but that's it. That's how he keeps himself awake for four and a half minutes of the two notes I'll give you some drums just so we get the full rhythm section because it's Can I just say the bass is You know, we always say on the show fight me The bass does a thing in the second verse that I absolutely love Oh, yeah, like you're you're you're building up to that. Well, I'm building up to the bridge and what happens in the bridge We're building up to that in this whole episode. It's been a three It's been a teamwork to get this bridge idea to this moment. Yeah. Yeah, you've arrived at the right time I'm ready. If you've just tuned in what the hell was that? We're all in the same room the whole time Yeah, I don't know what I was saying, but I do know this when we get to the bridge We've been hearing just those two chords. I'll play you Stevie. She's playing this But I'll play what John plays and then I'll put them together so John goes up to the octave in the bridge And Right here he goes to a That's it for a second one quarter note and then dad I'd offer like you think you're over this heartbreak You're not he's playing this a no just for the one quarter note and then he returns to briefly But I'll in the mix. I'll bring back those other instruments. It has this magical effect. Yeah of you momentarily can breathe out Oh It's like we even argue with somebody and then you briefly have like a moment where you like start laughing together That tension was released for a second, that's actually not the part I was thinking about. Oh, really? There's another part in the second verse. I know you're talking. Do you know what I'm talking about? He's got a rise with her a little bit. Also hearing this play, especially when the bass comes in you realize This song is always faster than you remember it. Yeah, it's 120 BPM. Yeah, it moves It's a disco beat and a disco tempo, yeah, this is like a heartbreak song like it's a love ballad, but like it moves It's relentless yeah like Stevie Here's the part. I think you're talking about. Yeah, and I will tease a little Stevie just cuz it's pleasant You're right. You got it. You got to hear with John is basically playing what she's singing So I'll play it alone and then we'll hear together You can hear how they participate how they collab in this little moment That's a good bass player that's a silly listen to the vocalist so good in it, that's good I mean, he only does it once in the whole song. Yeah such restraint No, I'd have been like Way less special. He can't do more of that because that would take you out of the trance fugue state of the song Yes, I know. Trust me. They rejected my my suggestions There's a dance break in the middle and we modulate up a half-step that is a flash mob that baby is talking He's not even one, okay Honestly what makes this song really stand out For me is the powerhouse vocal performance to me It's what it's such a huge part of what makes it a multi-generational hit We have Stevie's isolated vocals and let me say when we open the stems We were surprised at the first thing we heard But it was Stevie humming. Can you play us some of the humming? Maybe the Uber fans already knew this. I never noticed it. I don't think I noticed it. You'll never hear it again without noticing this. At the very beginning, before the verse, she does this. Mm-hmm-mm-mm-mm I never noticed that. She does that twice. Mm-hmm-mm-mm-mm-mm And then she sings verse one. And it sounds like this. Here we go. Now here you go again You say you want your freedom Well, who am I to keep you down? Lindsay does a thing right here. It's only right that you should play the way you feel it But listen carefully to the sound I hate stopping things in the middle. Believe me, that's painful. But we should talk. We should talk before we move on. Thoughts, feelings. I saw some people, like, just really feeling it right now. This is the beauty of a really great vocalist. They sing what is actually a difficult performance, but they sing it so smoothly that you think you can sing it. I don't know what you're talking about. The really amazing thing about this song, as soon as anybody hears it, in the first listen, by the second chorus, you want to sing it too. Her voice is inviting you to sing along with her, which is wild because no one can sing like her. She is one of the truly greatest voices of all time. And she has such a distinctive voice. The quality is, you can't, all of this breakdown is useless when you get to the human voice. It just is Stevie Nicks and it has a unique, you can use words like rasp and you can use words like witchiness, but you can't really nail down any, there's a language for it. No, the language is spite. If you listen to the vocals and think about the context in which she's singing this, she is singing a song about her ex that her ex helped her fix. Then the other girl in the band was like, I don't like your damn song anyway. And the whole time she's singing it with lungs of steel and the wings of an angel. She is steely with spite. I hear it. To build on what you were saying too about the first two, it's A, A, B, C of the first four lines. The first two are roughly the same melody and it hooks you in because it's simple. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. I can do that. It's called conjunct when the notes are so close together and they're sequential. But then what does she do next? Whoa, how do I do that? Your average lay person cannot hit that. It's only right. And she doesn't struggle at all. When she's walking up to that jump, she's just like, da, da, da, da, da, da. How'd you do that? It's spite. It's spite. Spite is the answer. I just also want to say, you have to remember, when the band went to hire them, they were hiring one person. They thought they were hiring Lindsay. And the fact that Stevie- Stevie was the star. Stevie's just like, he's like, no, he literally said you have to hire her too. Buckingham-Nixon had been the album, but she stole the show. She stole the show. As we move on to the pre- Pre-chorus. Yeah, let's keep going. Keep noticing how few notes there are. I think the pre-chorus is, again, like three notes about 80% of the time. And you're also not getting a lot of rhymes. You're getting a handful of near rhymes, but you don't even notice. You're so- between the chords cycling through the two-bar loop, you're essentially distracted because of her voice, because of the spite in her voice, because of the lyrical- there's all these other things, but it's not really rhyming, and it's not really repeating melodies very much. Without further ado, let's get into the pre- In the stillness of remembering what you had Let me throw in the backgrounds. And what you lost And what you had And there's a big stack coming in. And what you lost Oh, thunder only happens when it's raining Fun fact, no fewer than two people, as we were rehearsing the song, were like, are you sure that's the right note? Because I wasn't really nailing it. But it's really in the stack. It's a three-part harmony. Well, and then there's a moment when she's walking up to the chorus where that high note is lingering on the five, which is not a note you would think to hang on given this chord progression, but it works. And it's like this siren call. Yeah. It's incredible. It's momentarily- yeah, there are moments- this is a three-part harmony that's basically- I think it's root, third, fifth, but a handful of times we diverge from that, like you're saying. We get a jazz moment or a gospel moment. Yeah. And it's all Stevie, right? No, it's not. I was just going to say perfect. Thank you for teaming up. The blend- We do this. The blend is the three songwriters in the band. It's Stevie, Lindsay, and Christine. Christine, R.I.P., you know. Yeah, passed away a couple years ago, I believe. So Christine McVie is singing the third, but live I think she sings the lead. In case you were wondering, I thought that fact was important enough to stop the show and spend nearly five minutes on it. I appreciate it. We live in the weeds on this show. It's true, it is a weedy show, to be fair. Hearing you introduce the chorus, it reminds me of my favorite reality of this song. The most popular lyric of the song is a lie. It can thunder when it's not raining. Wait, what? I've thought about this. No, I'm so glad you brought this up. It can thunder when it's not raining. Everybody knows this. Thunder only happens when it's raining? That's a lie. Not true. That's a lie. Not true. Team Lindsay on that one. I'm from Texas. We have just weird weather all the time. It just be like thunder for no goddamn reason. That has never dawned on me. Yeah. Interesting. But it's delivered so beautifully. Do you think they noticed that that was the case and therefore- I'm sure Lindsay noticed and was like, you see me? And she's like, fuck you. No, because maybe- We're singing the song. There you go with your meteorological lies again. Only because it's one of those songs where the title of the song is not the chorus. Exactly. So theoretically, the chorus might have been thunder only happens when it's raining. Maybe they were about to press it and send it out the door and someone was like, wait a second. Hold on. This is going to throw some people because it's a lie. It's a lie. Maybe players love things other than playing. We don't know. We don't know. Who knows? Dreams. Just distract them with dreams. That'll distract everybody. Does she sing the word dreams? It comes up once. I think twice maybe. I want to say in the second verse. Have you any dreams you'd like to sell? Dreams of something. Have you any dreams you'd like to sell? Dreams of loneliness. Yeah. That's not the chorus. That's not the chorus. You can do that though. It's okay. Do you guys want to hear one more chorus and then into the end of the song with that last little bend? Yeah. Let's do it. Oh, thunder only happens when it's raining. Let's give you a little bit of isolated Chris and Stevie. Players only love you when they're playing. See, I'm vindicated. That's what I was singing. I'm vindicated. Say when they will come and they will go. They attacked me. Hearing the way they sing this is very country, my dude. It's super country. I didn't want to say it because I can tell the audience is already turning against me. The three-part harmonies are country. The three-part harmonies are country and so is the guitar, right? It sounded like gospel country. Yes. Also, the way they sing women, it's like women. They will come and they will go. Did you hear that? Women. Women. Women. Women. They will come and they will go. They come and they go. You didn't hear it? It's going to be a George Strait song. Play it again. I didn't have the Pentecostal upbringing. Play it again. Play it again. Play it again. Listen for it. Say women. Women. Women. Women. Women. Women. I hear that. She heard it. She heard it. She heard somebody say that. Women. Women. They will come and they will go. They come and they go. I'm sweating. I know. It's the hot light. That concludes our STEM portion. That's the STEM portion. It's a good STEM portion. Give it up. It's a good STEM portion. Give it up for the Fabulous Five, son. We're all feeling the feels here. We've heard the song. Give it up for the Fabulous Five, son. We're all feeling the feels here. We've heard the STEMs. Tell us Luxury, how do the song splits break down? 100% Stefanie Lynn Nix. She didn't share anything. Good for her. It's just her song. Good for her. who stems with us today and really immersing yourself in Dreams, what do you think the legacy of Dreams by Fleetwood Mac is? The legacy of Dreams and the legacy of Fleetwood Mac as a band from the very start was finding creative and collaborative partners that you trust enough to create with through every emotional arc, everyone. I think we have not had a band like that since. I know so many bands from my youth that had a good run and broke up because they were fighting or had a good run but broke up because one of them broke the other's heart. Fleetwood Mac said, we will go through the breakups and the fights and the animosity and we will still make music together and we will still help each other perfect their songs and we'll perform them together for decades. That is such a beautiful way to approach your art and to approach collaboration with anybody else. That is the pinnacle of artistic trust. I trust you enough to be happy around you and sad around you and to sleep with you and to not sleep with you and to love you and to hate you and still make songs with you. No one does that anymore. And when I think of the ways in which conflict musically has changed in our modern era, imagine if today artists who had beef with each other said, I'm not gonna put you down, I'm not gonna fight with you, we're gonna make music together. Imagine if Drake and Kendrick had to look each other in the eye and perform a song together. To look at each other in the eye. And imagine Kendrick saying to Drake, here's how you make that diss line about me better. We'd all be better and richer for it. And so like, I don't know, I listen to Drake. Our MP3 collections are poor for that having not happened. I totally agree. Yeah, and so like, I listen to Fleetwood Mac and listen to Dreams and I enjoy the music and I think it's sonically beautiful, but I think it's even more beautiful for the story it tells about emotional endurance with creative partners. We need more of that. Luxury, I wanna ask you the same question. What's the legacy of Dreams? I mean, that was really well said. I will say that one thing that strikes me thinking about Stevie Nicks is how she never went on to have children or kind of music was her- Oh, Dreams is her baby. Music and songwriting is her family and creativity is what she is in the world. And she's made a lot of sacrifices. Perhaps she doesn't think that way. I don't wanna like push that on her that her value is only... Clearly we are richer on this earth because Stevie Nicks has chosen music over everything. But there must be part of her that feels that that choice has led to things that she didn't do and that she doesn't have in her life. We can only wonder. She seems quite happy, but it's such a sacrifice. She sacrificed everything for her music. Yeah. What about you, D'Alan? I had a pre-written answer. I'm tossing it out. Toss it out. Toss it out. We don't need that. No, seriously, this conversation is bad. I, after immersing for the last couple of days and weeks, I think, this is a little bit out there, Lindsay and Stevie were in a relationship and they were like, they were hippies. You know, like they were living in San Francisco. And I think I read somewhere where he said, I think if we hadn't started making music together, we would have lasted as a couple. But the fact is, is that they went from being extremely broke to extremely famous in six months, which, you know, to throw that into a relationship, and it may not be fair to them, but I see them almost as like these avatars for like, you know, like, And it may not be fair to them, but I see them almost as like these avatars for like that hippie generation that fell in love in 68 and 69, and then they tried to make music together. And then by the mid seventies, and I always thought of the seventies as sort of a weary decade anyway. Like you can hear sort of like a weariness of like the free love and the drugs and everything has started to take its toll six and seven years on. And you can see all of that in microcosm in this group. You know, people who fell in love with the blues and rock and they started making music, but then all of the excesses by 1975 and 76 and 77 have started to take their toll. So whenever I think of that generation of free love and the hippies, I always do sort of think, and we saw it a little bit more here earlier in it on AirFest, you sort of get this sense of like, yeah, that wasn't sustainable. The parts of it that were beyond the intellectualism, all that stuff, it wasn't sustainable. And I sort of see that in microcosm. And the part of their story that lingered the most was a story of the unsustainability. Like the story of the heartbreak. That's what lingers of them, not the stuff before. Right. You know, it's beautiful in this tragic way. Being vulnerable and throwing that pain into the music is what has made this music generally very timely. There's something, everybody writes songs with their exes. Do it. That is the lesson. There's almost something on the nose about how this song perfectly embodies and remains 50 years later, a song that is unresolved about an unresolved couple in an unresolved situation with unresolved chords. It's almost too on the nose and perfect musically what they did in the song, but it demonstrates the effectiveness that we are still talking about it. And it still has the magic that it has literally half a century later. This is half a century old. Oh yeah. Okay, well, before we end the show, Sam, we want to play a game with you. We've already played a game. A second game. It's called What's One Song? Here are the rules. We'll ask you a question. You'll give us a one song answer. You have a minute to respond to as many of these questions as you can. So please don't overthink it. Answer as quickly as possible. Let's begin. What's one song that never fails to make you emotional? I'm a millennial. Robbins, Dancing On My Own. Oh, nice. Always. What's one song you wish you could have been in the studio for? Hey Ya. What a weird fucking song. They broke up. The time signature is strange. What's one song, truly, what's one song that's taught you something about yourself? Herbie Hancock's recording of the jazz standard, My Ship. Go and listen to it. What's one song that you think is underrated? You're just talking with Novena about the Black Eyed Peas. A lot of those songs are actually good. I was not expecting that answer. Name one. Boom Boom Pow. What? Holy shit. Wow, did not see that coming. Underrated. What's one song you low-key know all the words to? Boom Boom Pow. That's just nice and slow. Oh, that's a great song. I was in eighth grade singing all those words. That's a great song. What's one song that you'll always dance to no matter where you are? Boom Boom Pow. All right. Thanks for being here. Everybody give it up for Sam Sandler. This was so much fun. This was a blast. I love this. I hope we can do this again with you, you know. We'll figure out a way. Let's do Tusk next time. Underrated album. Good choice. Underrated album. Okay, well, thank you so much, Sam. As always, you can find our team on Instagram and TikTok. You can find me on Instagram at Dialo, D-I-A-L-O-O and on TikTok at Dialo Riddle. You can find me on Instagram at L-U-X-X-U-R-Y or on TikTok at LuxuryXX. And where can we find you, sir? At Sam Sanders. Only Instagram. I don't get the TikToks. I think me too. Yeah, it's too much. But I will also say that you can follow our podcasts on TikTok and Instagram at One Song Podcast for exclusive content. You can also watch full episodes of One Song on YouTube and Spotify. Just search for One Song Podcast. We'd love it if you'd like to subscribe. Also be sure to check out the One Song Spotify playlist for all of the songs we discuss in our episodes. You can find the link in our episode description. And if you've made it this far, you're officially part of the One Song Nation. Show us some love, give us five stars, leave a review and send this episode to a fellow music fan. It helps to keep the show running. That is it for us today. Where's your catchphrase? Gosh, I forgot. Luxury, help us in this thing. I'm producer, DJ, songwriter and musicologist, Luxury. That's who you are. And I'm actor, writer, director and sometimes DJ, D.L.O. Riddle. And this has been One Song. We'll see you next time. This episode was produced by Melissa Duanez. Our video editor is Casey Simonson. Our associate producer is Jeremy Vimbo. Mixing by Michael Harmon and engineering by Eric Hicks. Production supervision by Razak Boykin. Additional production support from Zee Taylor. This show is executive produced by Kevin Hart, Mike Stein, Brian Smiley, Eric Eddings, Eric Weil and Leslie Guilm. $15 a month, now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com. This isn't just a game, it's a once in a generation event. The Harlem Globetrotters 100 year tour. Celebrate 100 years of high flying dunks, 100 years of show stopping moves, and 100 years of changing the game. Bring the whole family and be part of the legacy. This game is once in a century. Be there at Chase Center on January 18th. Go to harlemglobetrotters.com for your tickets to the 100 year tour.