Making the Shift from Individual Contributor to Leader

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We carefully curate this feed from across the HBR portfolio, aiming to help you unlock your next level of leadership. I hope you enjoy the episode. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Nicole Torres. Making the transition from being one of many on a team, an individual contributor, a follower, however you like to think of that role, to being a leader is a process. It's a process of not just convincing other people to see us as leaders, but also of convincing ourselves that we can and should lead. This episode, we are going to be exploring this process of becoming a leader, including the soul-searching that women in particular often have to do to get there. Our guests are experts on leadership development and friends of the show. You might remember Muriel Wilkins from our episode on visibility and Amy Su from our episode on claiming credit. They founded the executive coaching firm Paravis Partners and wrote a book together called Own the Room. And Amy Su just came out with a new book, The Leader You Want to Be. Amy and Muriel, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. It's great to be here. Do you remember the first time that you were being seen as a leader? Like the moment you realized, oh, actually other people see me as a leader? It was my first supervisory job, which looking back now, I was thrusted into this role and having to supervise individuals who were far more experienced than I was. And while I knew that I was there as a supervisor and as a manager, I certainly didn't see myself as a leader, but everybody else did. And it took a couple of couple of big fails for me to step into the leadership role and recognize that it was much more than just making sure that people were doing what they were supposed to be doing. So I do remember it. And now in hindsight, probably a little bit more painfully than I'd like to. How about you, Amy Sue? There was a day when I had really lost it on somebody who worked with me. And, you know, later when I debriefed with that person and you realized how much you were able to cause a bad day for somebody else, there's just this moment that, wow, you know, perhaps I'm a leader now. And my temperament and mood and state of being is actually going to impact the way others feel. Right. That ripple effect. It sounds like for both of you, it was not very positive. And as we've been discussing this topic, we've talked about how it's a bit like an awkward growth spurt to go from someone who's an individual contributor focused on learning, absorbing to someone who's now seen as a leader. I'm curious if that's how you think of it in your writing, in your work with coaching clients. Is this sort of an awkward phase, an exciting phase? How do you characterize it? Yeah, you know, I never quite thought of it as awkward, but certainly an uncomfortable phase, which, as we all know, that's where most of the growth happens. And it's hard because on the one hand, you want to go back to what you were comfortable with and what has made you successful up until now. And on the other hand, you know that you can step into the role that you're currently in, the potential that you have. So certainly uncomfortable can definitely be awkward. And at the same time, I think one of the inflection points that is really great for growth for anyone. So I see two challenges or two things that make this such an uncomfortable phase. And the first thing is like, do you see yourself as a leader? But then the other challenge is if you see yourself as a leader, but other people do not. So maybe you've stepped into a managerial role or maybe you're leading a project and you see yourself as being the one making decisions, but you don't necessarily feel like other people perceive you as that leader. Do you see those two challenges play out? Nicole, I think both sides of that equation Muriel and I have definitely seen where there's both your own shift internally around realizing that you are a leader and that you are bringing a different business judgment and a different set of decision making skills to the table. And at the same time, as you mentioned, it's also interesting to see how perception follows along with that. And I think in our coaching work, we've always seen that the internal shift often happens sooner, quicker, with a greater pronouncement than perhaps how others view you. Let's take each of those in turn because I think the internal one, while it may happen quicker, it seems really, for many people, especially women, hard to make that leap. And I'm curious, when you coach clients who are making that leap, what are the major obstacles and how do you help them get there? In anything, right, the internal piece is the harder part. And I think with clients, one of the big things they really need to embrace is that being a leader or acting as a leader doesn't necessarily require the hierarchical position. And so a lot of them wait till they get the promotion, right? Till they're the vice president, till they're managing a team, assuming that that's when they need to be, quote unquote, leaderly, right? As though it's like, okay, it's a rites of passage. You've promoted, now you can wear your leadership hat. Whereas in reality, you should be preparing for this from day one. So a lot of what we have to work with them on is not just the mindset in terms of seeing themselves as a leader, what does that mean, how do they want to lead, how do they want to be known, but also starting to understand that there are some specific skills that help in terms of establishing your leadership, asserting your leadership, primarily around your communication skills, your ability to speak up, your ability to listen, your ability to ask good questions, how you lead your work and drive your work, as well as even your physical presence, right? How you hold yourself in a room, in a conversation, and can you do it in a way that, again, makes you feel like you're a leader and makes others feel like they're in the presence of a leader as well. So the minute I have a client who says, with real conviction, that they do want to lead, that's actually the biggest breakthrough because they have to own it. Once we understand that, then we can work backwards to say, all right, so how do you do this in a way that supports who you are while at the same time being relevant and resonates with those who you need to lead? Are there specific examples of things that you tell clients who come to you and they say, I want to lead? And, you know, you want to send them out and have them practice different styles of leadership. What are some things you tell them to do to establish themselves as leaders if they don't have the title that denotes certain responsibility but they want to start embodying a leader? What do you tell them to do? I think, Nicole, the word embodiment is really important. That we could tell somebody all we want that we're a leader, we're a leader, let me tell you I'm a leader. And it's really about the felt experience of the other person. So, for example, you might be somebody who historically asked a lot of questions or asked for advice from others. And so, for example, Nicole, maybe in the past I would say to you, hey, Nicole, how do you think I should price this proposal? And instead, I think in a more leader stance, I might come to you now with what I call the comment and the question, where I'm sharing with you my business judgment first and then asking a question. So instead, I might say, Nicole, I'm thinking we should price this proposal this way. I think it inherently keeps the value of our firm and at the same time mitigates risks on renewals. But I really value your perspective. Do you think I'm missing anything here? So there's a big difference then when our stance is historically, wow, I don't have the answers, so I'm going to go ask others and follow versus I'm a leader. I'm going to share with you my judgment, but then hold openness to other perspectives. I love that. And then if I can add to that, I think if a client is working in a specific organization that has their own model of what it looks like to be an effective leader in that organization, at a very practical level, I ask them, do you even know what it means to be an effective leader in this organization? If the answer is no, then they have to go on a little field trip to HR and ask, right, what does the leadership model look like here? Is there one? And usually it's made up of, you know, eight to 12 skills. And we start working on those skills. We probably have people who are listening and saying, I've nailed the internal. I know I want to be a leader. I've looked at the competencies. I've started exhibiting the behavior, but people around me still don't see me as You know, maybe you started as an intern or you started at another entry-level position and you stayed there long enough and you've kind of grown a lot, at least on paper in your role, but also in how you see yourself and how you understand the company. I think a big challenge is still, like, how do you get people to stop seeing you as that intern, you know, who started, like, five years ago and start seeing you as someone who has a pretty good understanding of what the company needs right now and how this organization operates and can make good decisions to help lead it forward? I'm wondering if you have worked with clients who face that similar challenge and how you help them overcome it. It is a challenge, I think, when you're homegrown, right, where the organization has seen you at many stages of your development. And so I think many of the things we've already discussed here, number one, you yourself staying updated to who you are and where you've been and where you are now is very important. Some of the things that Muriel shared earlier around making sure that you're keeping others under the tent and being clear on your intentions of growth. And I think really trying to make the advantage of that you have institutional knowledge, you have a loyalty to the organization, you have a history of relationships. And so as you continue to talk about your career development within that organization, how do you keep bringing those strengths and those benefits to bear in terms of the next difference you want to make? And I think you have to be careful to keep your eyes out for cues. So if your organization keeps hiring external folks into roles that you want, or if you find that folks continue to treat you as if you were a version of yourself from 10 years ago, those are cues that you want to pay attention to and make sure you're not stagnating. And if you are seeing those cues, if you feel like you are stagnating, what do you do? I think, first, you try to have conversations with folks about your career development, that you do have a loyalty and history, you do feel like you add value, be clear on the difference you hope to make next. And if still nothing happens, then I think all of us, and women especially, need to understand that you have market value outside of your organization. And it might be worth having some conversations outside to see what might be possible. You know, this is where I think, and I don't want to speak in general terms that all women are like this, but this is just my anecdotal experience in having worked with clients and, as you said, like, talking to friends. One of the areas that I don't think women tend to look out for as much as I see their male counterparts do is when they are assigned a new position or role or project, do they make the assessment of have they been set up for success? And so to this point around when you're homegrown, using that actually as an advantage if you are offered a new role, a new position, to really take a step back before accepting and negotiating what you can to make sure that you're set up for success. And so what does that mean? In practical terms, for example, if you have a concern that the people who used to be your peers are now going to be reporting to you, how is that going to play out? Being able to get your boss or your manager to explicitly show your support and have that person help get buy-in from those peers now direct reports, sort of smoothing the stage before you get on, is a way of setting up conditions to help you be more successful. We tend to have this mindset that when we're offered these roles, the mindset tends to be, oh, my God, we're so thankful, you know, we're grateful. Oh, lucky me that I made it this far. Versus what I tell my clients, I tell myself, I tell my kids, like, no, like, you're lucky to have me, right? You're lucky to have me, right? I'm bringing value. I'm bringing it on. I am excited to be here. You are excited to have me here. You offered me the role. So let's, you know, let's kick this thing off and really make sure it works for everybody. Right. And I think that's a mindset that really helps in terms of being able to get that support and getting people to see that you are also excited. You're not stepping into it hesitantly. You're stepping into it because basically, you know, it's almost like, I've been ready for this, right? The time is now. Let me go for it. And at the same time, as Amy said, use all the social capital and institutional knowledge that you have as a benefit rather than as a crutch. Right. Legal teams are under more pressure than ever. More data, more complexity, more scrutiny. They need AI built for the realities of legal work. For more than a decade, Relativity has invested in AI built specifically for legal teams, designed to meet legal standards and support defensible decisions. The result is explainable AI that handles tedious tasks so judgment and critical decisions stay where they belong, with you. Learn more at relativity.com slash HBR. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money, and momentum. A good hire, they can help grow your business. That's why LinkedIn built Hiring Pro, your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you. So instead of sorting through applications, you spend your time talking to candidates who are actually a good fit. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com slash onleadership. Terms and conditions apply. So I really like your advice on having explicit conversations with managers or whoever that, you know, lets them know that you want to lead and here are all the things that you're willing to do and here are ways that you could use their support to get better. But I've also gotten the advice from people to, like, just start leading. If you're given the task to be in charge of something, then, like, really assert yourself in leading that. So schedule meetings, start sending emails about those things, you know, like, really attach yourself as the person who's responsible for a given project. And I'm wondering, are there certain moments when you should just do that? Nicole, I think that moment exists every day. And I would encourage people to just do that, right? When you take any project that you're working on, I think the push to ourselves to say, am I thinking about this project simply as a set of activities that I need to execute well or am I pausing to think about it differently? If I looked at the same business problem, but now I put it on a three-year horizon or if I thought about the risks involved or if I thought about the competitive benchmarks, I think there's so much more that we can each do every day to bring a different level of strategic thinking to the work we do, to the way we communicate, are we framing up in a more senior level way? So I think the world of possibilities to demonstrate a higher order of leadership is available to all of us at every moment, whether somebody gives us permission or not. Yeah. How do you stay? I know we all have those moments of doubt. We talk about imposter syndrome on this show. But if you are a leader, if you start seeing yourself as a leader and you sense that other people doubt you, you know, people think that you have progressed too fast. They kind of still see you as someone who needs training wheels. How do you just preserve your own sense of confidence so that you know you can lead and it's some people are just wrong about you? I mean, one of the things that I think is really helpful, particularly when you take on a management role for the first time and you start leading a team, really up front, very, very early on getting on the table, what people's hopes and aspirations are in terms of you being the leader, but also understanding what their concerns might be. Right. And that ability to listen up front around the concerns gives you an added advantage in terms of being able to not get defensive, but address them. And also hearing what the expectations are, because the more that you can start being in tune to those expectations and potentially meet some of those expectations and get some quick wins, that starts building your credibility. The biggest watch out is to get defensive, because if you get defensive, it's just going to alienate everyone. Right. And you don't want to be in that position. What if you're not sure if you want to lead? What if you're on the fence about taking on more responsibility? How do you decide whether this is actually something you want to do? This is where you really need to think through, what do the next couple of years look like for you? I don't think it's a lifetime decision. Right. Some people look at it as, what do I want to do with my life? And I, for one, really think just look at things in a three to five year horizon. Five years seems like a very long time to me. So really focus on the next couple of years rather than this is for the rest of my life. And from that standpoint, one of the best ways that you can do that is look ahead, right? What could be the possibility five years from now? What are the different scenarios and which one sits better in terms of being more aligned with what you want? What you don't want to have happen is I don't want to follow that particular scenario out of fear. And that's a very different way of opting out. I remember early on in my career, I recognized that I was getting very close to really being in a position to gun for partner at a consulting firm. And while I did believe that I could do it, the question was, did I want to do it? how do you come off as credible and how do you come off as relatable? And when we slice that onion, they realize it's actually not that different, right? Credible is how I deliver my message. Do I know what I'm talking about? Do I deliver it in a structured, concise way in a way that's relevant for my audience? And relatable is, you know, am I listening? As Amy said, am I demonstrating empathy? Do I seek to understand? Do I give verbal cues that demonstrate that relatability? Do I meet people where they are? And so when they start breaking it down into smaller chunks, they realize, oh yeah, it's actually not that different. It's just a mode in which I'm delivering that now. Let's talk about visibility. We did a survey of new hires, people who started their jobs remotely. And one of the biggest concerns that many of them raised was about being seen by senior leaders or other people in the organization. You know, as someone who's trying to make that transition from either individual contributor to a leader, how do you think about visibility in this virtual environment? And how do you think about it in a way that doesn't involve eight Zoom calls a day? And so you're so burnt out at the end of the day. I do think, Amy Galloway, it involves right up front, as you think about onboarding, as Muriel said, the same disciplines of what you would do onboarding in terms of who are the key stakeholders who should know you, understand your role, the connection points with those folks. And now thinking about that, every email you send is a point of visibility and how are you showing up credible and relatable, even in that platform or in the meetings where you do have the chance to show up. Those same principles of presence and thinking about the space where we're in and awareness and almost imagining we're in a room with others helps our presence to be more visible, even when we're virtual. Yeah. I mean, I think you definitely have to be more intentional and strategic around cultivating relationships than you probably would have to, you know, when you're in the office. That for sure has been a major impact. But in terms of thinking about how do I make myself visible within the organization or with my team, it takes a lot of planning to do that and prioritizing. So with my clients, it's, as Amy said, like being clear around who do I need to be visible with, how and what mode and why. And if they can answer those three questions, then we can solve for, okay, how do you go about doing it? The danger is when you don't go through that thought process and then you either become invisible or quite frankly, too visible. You're on everybody's calendar too much. Right, right. So being kind of strategic around it is really important. The other thing that a few women brought up in the survey that we did was the idea of building trust as a leader in a virtual environment. Any advice around how to either be patient with that process or to accelerate it? Trust has been one of the big challenges, Amy Galloway, as you asked us at the start of this, that, you know, how do we do that in a virtual world? And just the awareness of, in the way that you used to be able to walk down the hall and inform somebody or close the loop. Now, I do think it just takes a little more intentionality. You know, who needs to know? Who needs to be involved? Who do I need to close the loop with so they're not blindsided? I think that extra step of organizational awareness becomes more critical in terms of trust building. Yeah. Well, and I think about trust also is so much as about follow through, following through on your commitments. And I think that maybe becomes more critical to do because you're not having those informal interactions where you sort of give someone the benefit of the doubt if they forget to send that email they promised. You're not seeing what's happening. That's right. One of the things that can really deteriorate trust in a virtual environment is lack of responsiveness, right? You send that email because that's the way you communicate, right? And it's like, uh, what's happening? Is it in a black hole? Did they even receive it? You know, when you're in person, you can see what the person is doing. So you could say, oh, they're really busy. Oh, I see their door has been closed all day. Or, oh, they've been in that meeting all day. That's why they haven't responded. But in a virtual environment, you don't know what they're doing. How you can mitigate that is by being responsive and communicating on what's happening and kind of leaning more into over-communicating than you probably had to do in the past. Yeah. Well, and even setting up expectations of like, I'm on back-to-back Zooms today. If you send me an email, I'm not going to get back to it until tomorrow or whatever timeframe feels reasonable. I think that can probably go a long way for that trust building. I think as well, making time and space to be intentional is really a challenge. And so with a lot of our leaders, we've had to advise, make sure that the first half an hour of the day, now that you aren't commuting, sit down and have that time and space for yourself. Don't just assume you can start meetings right away. Grab that half an hour to look ahead at your calendar or look at your email to say, who might just need a one-liner that says, confirming receipt of this. I want to be thoughtful. I'll get back to you in a couple of days or tomorrow or whatever. Yeah. You know, one of the things that we've seen happen in organizations over the last 18 plus months is that we've gone into this all hands on deck mode where people have to step up to help out. And if you're someone who's also at the same time, trying to be seen as a leader, step into a leadership role. How can you raise your hand to help volunteer for those extra activities without being seen as someone who's more junior than you want to be perceived as? Yeah. I mean, I think that as long as you're truly leaning into being seen as a leader, then, you know, the one or two times you volunteer for something like, oh, I'll go grab the coffee or I'll send out the holiday cards or whatever it might be, won't be a detriment to you, right? So you've got to lean into the leadership piece and the other stuff should enhance it as making you more relatable rather than have the impact of reinforcing that you're not a leader. I think too, you have to ask yourself, is the raising your hand a knee jerk reaction? I'm your gal every time. Or is it coming from a true leadership place, which is driven by principles and values, which is, hey, I really see what's happening. I want to rise to the occasion, be a part of this. So the source from which you are deciding to do that is a critical piece of if it's a leadership move or a default reaction to always saying yes or being the junior one. Yeah, I like that. Is this part of being seen as a leader or is this just like what I'm used to doing because people expect it of me or I expect it of myself, right? HBR leadership will be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation from Harvard Business Review. This episode was produced by Mary Du. On leadership's team includes Maureen Hoke, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trexler, and Ian Fox. If this episode helped you, please share it with your friends and colleagues and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. While you're there, consider leaving us a review. When you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books, and videos with the world's top business and management experts, find it all at hbr.org. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money, and momentum. A good hire, they can help grow your business. That's why LinkedIn built Hiring Pro, your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you, so instead of sorting through applications, you spend your time talking to candidates who are actually a good fit. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com slash on leadership. Terms and conditions apply.