Getting Buy-In for Your Next Big Idea

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We carefully curate this feed from across the HBR portfolio, aiming to help you unlock your next level of leadership. I hope you enjoy the episode. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. Middle managers should drive your business transformation. That's the title of an HBR article published in April. The authors, Michael Mankins and Patrick Litriff, both partners at Bain, implore executives to harness the ingenuity and creativity of leaders under them because that's often where breakthroughs come from. Directors and department heads have uniquely valuable perspectives. They're deep enough in the day-to-day operations to appreciate the factors and assumptions that contribute to any given problem. They're also close enough to the work to spot certain emerging opportunities. All this means that they're inclined to propose solutions and ideas that are thorough yet doable. Common sense, right? But the reason Mankins and Litriff implore executives to welcome bottom-up change is that senior leaders tend not to. I mean, think back to the last time you had an idea for changing how your company does business or for bringing in new business, different tech, a new market, an improvement to a process. How'd that go over? Did you feel you even had their full attention? Michigan Ross professor Sue Ashford says the overarching reason executives pass on an idea from a mid-level manager is that they don't immediately perceive its relevance to organizational performance. She teaches MBA and exec-ed students how to sell their ideas up the chain of command and she's here to share wisdom from her couple of decades of research into that skill. Ellen Bailey is also here with us because at Harvard Business Publishing, she's the VP of business and culture transformation. And boy, does she live up to that title. She'll give examples of how she's applied Sue's thinking in her job, tailoring her pitch, framing the issue, involving others, and more. Ellen's developed her own road-tested persuasion tactics and she'll tell us all about them. I hope that hearing about the tactics that have worked well for Ellen and for Sue and for me will help you choose your next battle and win it. Sue, Ellen, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks. It's wonderful to be here and to have this talk. Absolutely. I'm looking forward to it. So Ellen, you've had to sell really big ideas into leadership at this organization. Some of them were about growth. Some were about culture. Tell us about that and what you saw as the key moments and maybe what you've learned along the way. Absolutely. Amy, one of the things I learned from you years ago when I brought questions up or when I brought ideas up is you always said, what's the problem that you're trying to solve? And so that's where I always start. And so kind of the formula that I use is, number one, what is the problem that I'm trying to solve? Number two, what are the benefits, mutually beneficial to the organization and the people? Because it's never just about the business and it's never just about the people. They're completely intertwined. Right. And then I would say, like, thirdly, does it link to our strategy or goals or drive that? Right. So when we think about the benefits, is it also aligned with what we're at the core trying to do? Those are just literally the three questions that I ask before I even try to put a story or a narrative together. Yeah. You know, I love hearing that, Ellen, because I remembered those conversations and it took me so long to learn those lessons. It used to be for me that I'd have an idea and I'd think it was just obviously a good idea. Right. Well, that is not the proper way to get buy in. Right. You really have to explain what makes this a good idea. And it's really helpful to think it through for yourself. Yeah. The one thing I'd add to that is thinking through for whom might this not be a good idea and what would be the reason. You know, I know that we get so invested in our idea and we know why it's good, but we forget that someone from another point of view just is going to look at it differently. For example, an idea about we need to reorganize this way. You know, one case study is a woman putting forth an idea about more time off and more flexibility for everyone because the people were working themselves to death in this organization. And, you know, the person who had the contact with the client was like, oh, so we're going to tell them we work less for you, you know? And so if you think about what are they going to say, it makes you think, oh, no, we need to think about how we frame it, how we phrase it, how we talk about it. So it's more just once you think about their point of view, you have new ideas about how to sell your issue. I can build on that and give a very specific example. So one of the things that we wanted to do a couple of years ago was we were wanting to ensure that we have equity for all in our organization. Right. Like we just need to have some checks and balances in place and evaluations to make sure we're doing the right things right. And the best certification out there that I could find and I still believe is great is this Black Equity Workplace Certification. It was like, OK, so we are not as racial and ethnically diverse as we would like. We are predominantly a white organization. So how do we sell this idea and think about it from another person's perspective? And could there be a downside through further research, though, and having like your data points is really important because there are studies that prove that if your organization is equitable for a black woman, then it is equitable for all. So then everybody wins. And so then I was able to use that data point to try to address that perspective of folks that would have perceived that something may be going away or not as beneficial to them. So it kind of reiterates Sue's point. So I think I actually remember that. And I remember that as a very compelling argument that you made. My version of that is I wanted to change a process that would have affected a particular group of people who could have understood it as making their jobs harder. And having done that job myself in the past, I really in my heart believed it was just making the job different. And so what I had to do to sell this idea was to address that head on with the people affected, to hear what they were saying, to see if my perception was right or wrong. And I had to adjust and to deal with it, not steamroll them, but also to feed back the argument for the greater good. I mean, it's hard and it can be frustrating and it takes way more time than you may have budgeted. That's so true. Yeah. Our oldest model of change is a very simple one by Kurt Lewin, unfreezing the organization, changing and refreezing. And he talks about a force field model where at all times there's forces pushing for change and resisting change. And right now they're equal in their pressure. And so it keeps the organization in a stasis state. And what you could either increase the pushing forces or decrease the restraining forces. And basically, it's a better strategy to try to decrease the restraining forces because when you increase the pushing forces, people push back. You know, they don't like it. But if you try to understand the point of view, make it work for them, reducing their blocking and their desire to block, you get the movement. Right. We hate change. We do. So let's just go to this point where you're sort of you're in this moment of birthing an idea. How do you even know if it's a good idea? How do you vet your own idea before you set out to sell it? Ellen, tell us about how you do it. Yeah. Before I even think about selling it, I actually leverage my network for this because I'm like, am I am I thinking about this the right way? Like, is this even worth putting forth? Is anybody else thinking about it this way? Like how radical is this really? So that's the first place I start is just evaluating it that way. Exactly. Allies, colleagues, friends, husbands, wives, partners. All of the above, Sue. Yeah, all of the above. OK, but then how do you move from, you know, the inner circle of trust to the greater organization? How do you do that, Sue? Well, I propose and I when I teach executives, I make them do this, that you map who's out there. So you map three different groups. Who is an obvious ally for this issue? Who is an obvious blocker for this issue? And who are the fence sitters? And then my favorite sentence about change is your job is to mobilize your allies, to influence your fence sitters, to pressure the blockers. You don't go directly at the blockers. You're really just trying to mobilize people around that faction in order to get it going. So part of the preparation is just mapping who's out I also wonder about that first, you know, you're ready to take the idea, you're ready to shop it out there, take it out of the circle of trust. How do you think about those first pitch meetings, if you will? Ellen, how have you thought about them? Yeah, so one, to be quite frank, they make me nervous. So I don't even pretend that they don't. So, you know, so I play it over in my head and scenario plan. One of the things I do too, is I try to understand if it's a large group, it's a little bit tougher. If you're talking to two, three, four people, it's a little bit easier. But really, honestly, what are their personalities and what are their work styles? Do they want a narrative? Do they want bullet points? Do they need a visual? Do I need to have all three of those things in there to help convey my point? And so that's one of the things I absolutely do is try to think through what are the work styles, learning styles, and honestly, just flat out personalities of the folks that I'm addressing. Totally. I also try to socialize ideas, you know, talk to the stakeholders one-on-one to hear their concerns, to hear how they play the idea back, right? Before taking it wide. So before the big meeting with the executive committee, whatever it might be, I actually think it's important for almost everyone at that table to have heard this before and to have been able to give some feedback so that these people can also feel some authorship. Also, so you can improve the idea to bulletproof it. What do you think, Sue? Yeah, exactly. You're meeting with the team that's going to decide. It's just the most visible step in the process. It's not the whole process. The way I phrase it is issue selling is a campaign. You have a campaign plan for your idea. And I think when you get out of the circle of trust, you know, you are selling the issue. You're selling the issue in the elevator, and you better have a, you know, like a 20-second portrayal. You're selling the issue when you hold a meeting with one-on-one meeting to gain your allies. You're selling the issue. You're not just selling the issue in that one meeting. You're selling the issue all along the way, and it gives you all the benefits that you mentioned, Amy. Well, and the other thing I always keep in mind is this isn't about me. So feedback, particularly negative feedback, is not personal. And you take that as, you know, the gift it is. Yeah, it's really about the collective. And Ellen, you said, I always start with what's the strategy? How does this fit? Because all true leadership isn't about me. It's about what we're trying to create here, and issue selling is just a great example of that. Yeah. So, Sue, you think about this a lot. What are the common mistakes that you've seen people make when they are pitching an idea to the business? Yeah, well, one is going it alone, thinking that, you know, you alone are going to make this big deal happen. The second is not regulating your own emotions. Because if you think about it, you often need very hot emotions to sell and to want to sell an issue, right? It's something that, you know, you're invested in that matters to you. So you've got maybe you're angry, and then maybe it doesn't work. So you get frustrated. And, you know, so managing those emotions, because I think when you actually raise it with people, you need to be somewhat cool emotionally to raise it, to be open. And then the other is around this having a solution, which everyone will tell you you have to do. You have to have a solution. And research has shown, yes, we like people who have a solution. But, you know, solutions can also be very narrow, and there might be a much better solution out there if it was discussable and we could brainstorm about it and come to a better solution. The other thing is people, you know, they grab hold of the organization like the blind men and the elephant. They grab hold of one part, you know, the tail or the leg or the ear, and they're passionate about their issue, but they're not seeing the elephant. And other people, often if you're selling up, they have a broader perspective. And so they're not liking your issue. It isn't personal, certainly, but also, you know, they have information that you don't, and you need to better understand how the issue fits in. That is such an important piece of advice, because if you've ever been on the receiving end of a pitch and you're grappling with it, you are buying in and you're kind of playing it back, and maybe you change a word here or there, you add in a salient detail, and the author of this pitch just isn't having it. It's, you know, it's 100% my way, the way I've articulated it, or it ain't worth doing. I gotta say, that's kind of a turnoff. So I want both of you to sit on the other side of the fence, and you're being pitched ideas. What framing, what tactics really work for you? I'll start with you, Ellen. Mm-hmm. I ask the same questions of the folks that are pitching to me that I ask of myself in my prep, which is leading with the benefits. So what is the benefit to the organization and to the people? Do we actually think this is doable? And how does it impact or drive the strategy, et cetera? And what are the potential trade-offs? So I usually start with those very three specific questions. And now when folks come to me, if they come to me more than once, they come prepared with those three things. All right, Sue, who has been a senior associate dean, you have been on the other side of the fence a lot. For sure. So what works for you? People being open to understanding the bigger picture. You know, they come to me with their issue, and if I can share, like, this is hard for me because of X, Y, and Z, they will work with me on that rather than being resentful or et cetera. So that matters. Flexibility regarding timing. Like, I was often overwhelmed by the amount of things coming at me. And if I could say to someone, look, I'd love to talk about this issue. Could we do it next week in a month? That kind of thing. Their openness and flexibility about that really helped a lot. Yeah. And when I've been sold ideas, I find that when someone kind of opens the aperture and takes in strategic goals, solves a problem, articulates the argument crisply, that works for me. When I have to do a lot of work to try to figure out what this is and is it important, you know, I don't know. That's a lot. I've got to be at a meeting in two minutes, you know? Yeah, I think being able to understand how it feels to receive helps you a lot with how you think about selling. Yeah, I see you nodding your head, Ellen. Mm-hmm. Definitely. I mean, how do we get unstuck, right? And how do we help people who are pitching us ideas or others thinking about things differently? And so I embedded this question into my team meetings recently, which is, what are the other three ways that we could think about this or solve for this? Ooh, so good. Just this morning, as a matter of fact, I had a conversation with a couple of colleagues around an allyship reverse mentoring program. And so while we all know all of the benefits to this, and they're all fabulous, the first version that I received was multiple months, a year-long hours per month dedicated to this. And so the reality, back to one of the points I made earlier, is that, is it really doable when we think about our employees and what's on their plate? While we want to do it justice, that's probably too much of a heavy lift. So then the second version was one meeting. And I'm like, oh, wait, that's not enough. And so the discussion that we had then was around, what are two or three other ways that we can solve for this that still maintains the objective and the benefits that we've outlined, but what are some ways that we can do it? And where we landed was three meetings that can take place over the course of three to four months to address these three topics. And then there were options and flexibility built in, but it was me posing the question back to these two brilliant folks on what are two or three other ways? And then the brainstorming just went and we ran 15 minutes over our meeting time because of all of the great ideas that they came up with. So we receive quite a bit of email from listeners who are struggling to get their ideas off the ground. And I'd love to get both of you to weigh in on a couple of them. So let me start by reading a message we got from a listener named Pam. Pam's a program manager at a company that issues credentialing exams for specific industry expertise. And she says the company can't seem to manage projects effectively. There are no project managers, and the C-suite doesn't understand the amount and type of resources it takes to execute on certain projects. Projects are continuously slowed down and derailed by fire drills from the executive team who don't think there's a problem with how things operate. As a result, the company isn't issuing as many exams as they could. Teams are working long hours, turnover is high, and they're perpetually understaffed. Pam has talked about this to her boss and the C-suite, and she presented to them a deck with data around how much more revenue could be generated if they just had the proper resource allocation. But before she really got All structures come with issues. You know, if you divide things up this way, there's this set of issues. If you divide them up some other way, there's a different set, but they all have issues that need to be overcome. So this one does as well, even though it's got some big pluses. And so thinking through who stands to lose might be important. I also think that sometimes an idea is good and people buy into the idea as an idea, but there's so many more urgent things on the agenda. There's so many bigger problems to solve that it might be worth, to Ellen's point, to find out what else is the executive committee thinking about, right? Yeah, it might be an example of what we were talking about where she has a thin slice of the organization that she understands and may not understand the whole. Yeah. So let's go to the more personal part of Alison's question. How do we deal with that voice in our heads that's telling us, you know, you're just being annoying, pipe down? Have you ever heard that little voice in your head? All the time. And how do you tell her to shut up? I really do kind of weigh the pros and cons. And is this the battle that is worth fighting? And I determine that literally by, does it help the people and does it help the business in a significant way? And then I just keep going. At some point, if the issue is important enough, you have to be willing to risk being annoying. And, you know, I get mad at some senior women colleagues have tenure, have full, are chaired, and they're like, oh, I'm scared to bring up issues about the treatment of women. I'm like, if you don't do it, who will? You know, so, yes, you might, you might suffer a little bit, but if you're doing it for the right reason that we talked about earlier for the mission, clearly not about me, about the collective, then you might have to risk being annoying. Yeah, I agree a hundred percent, Sue. I think it, how critical is this to address? And there are things that I'm just passionate about and that I love, that I really want to address that are, that are low hanging fruit and good opportunities, but it's just not a priority. And so that's where the timing comes into play as well. But if it's critical enough, then yeah, you have to continue to be annoying, so to speak, and push it forward. But there is that balance because you don't want to be the one that seems to always be raising the issues either. Yeah, that's a pick your battles kind of thing. That's exactly. Oh, yeah. HBR Leadership will be back next Wednesday with another handpicked conversation from Harvard Business Review. This episode was produced by Mary Do. On Leadership's team includes Maureen Hoke, Rob Eckart, Erica Trexler, and Ian Fox. If this episode helped you, please share it with your friends and colleagues and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. While you're there, consider leaving us a review. When you're ready for more podcasts, articles, case studies, books, and videos with the world's top business and management experts, find it all at HBR.org. Running a small business means every hire matters. 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