How I built a 1M+ subscriber newsletter and top 10 tech podcast | Lenny Rachitsky

I just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort. And this was as I was starting the newsletter and this phrase of I have wisdom to share coming through me over and over and over. And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing. And that was for three hours. It gave me the confidence that like, OK, maybe I do have things to share. What do you want to say to our mothers right now? Do you want to take that back? Do you want to take that back? You started your newsletter 2019 and it now has over a million subscribers. 1.2 million. 1.2. Something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from actual experience. People always say if you want to write, read. The source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real. At this point, most of my posts are guest posts where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career. What do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter? On the struggle bus of startup life probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined up some company as a PM. Do you still like it? I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting, but the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones boulder is chasing me constantly. It's like this treadmill that you're on. Tell me about a time you've been really stressed in your business. Here's something I've never shared. Today, my guest is my brilliant, incredible wife, Michelle Rial, who turns the table and interviews me. I've had so many people over the years want me to be interviewed on this podcast. And what could be more fun than doing this with my wife? I share things during this conversation that I've never shared anywhere else, including some of the hardest moments from this journey. I get a lot more personal than I've ever been on this podcast. Also, the day this podcast comes out just happens to be my wife's birthday. And she is also about to publish her third book, a children's book called Charts for Babies, which we chat briefly about. Definitely preorder it. This was so fun and so special. I hope you love it. Let's get into it. Here's a puzzle for you. What do OpenAI, Cursor, Perplexity, Vercel, Platt, and hundreds of other winning companies have in common? The answer is they're all powered by today's sponsor, WorkOS. If you're building software for enterprises, you've probably felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs, and other features required by big customers. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS. Whether you're a seed stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unlocking growth. 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They find candidates for you based on your exact criteria, take interview notes automatically, gather insights across your hiring process, and help you identify the best candidates in your pipeline. AI handles the recruiting toil and gives you a real source of truth. That means hours saved per hire and a team focused on what matters most, winning the right candidates. Don't let your competitors outhire you. Metaview customers close roles 30% faster. Try Metaview today for free and get an extra month of sourcing at metaview.ai.lenny. That's M-E-T-A-V-I-E-W.A-I-L-N-N-Y. Michelle Rial, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. So what are we doing here? People constantly ask me to get interviewed myself. People are like, why don't you sit on the other side of the microphone and get interviewed? And I'm just like, nah, I like interviewing. But you have a book coming out. And we thought this would be a fun opportunity to have you interview me. And so this is going to be your show. I'm just going to be here. I have no idea what you're going to ask me and we'll see where it goes. And I'm going to ask you some questions about your book too. So I'll turn that over to you, Michelle. What do you got? What do you got for me? Well, Lenny, AKA babe. Yeah. So you started your newsletter 2019 and it now has over a million subscribers. 1.2 million. And your podcast is very frequently one of the top 10. Is that right? Yep. It's like right around. Yeah. Yeah. Top 10 tech podcast. Yeah. Yes. Hell yeah. I love it. When I met you, I think you were something called a product engineer. I was a software engineer. Let's see when you met me. No, I think it was a, I think it was still a software engineer. Yeah. I think you went from a software engineer to a product engineer. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And I'm wondering, what do you, what do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter? If I like stayed in my job. Yeah. If you hadn't. And then that, I mean, I'll get to another question about what do you think is the one moment that led you to your newsletter, but you can answer either one. So is the question after I left Airbnb, what would I be doing? Or is it like if I didn't leave Airbnb, what would I be doing? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. If I left Airbnb, what would I be doing? Or is it like if I didn't quit? Just if you, if you hadn't, or if you had gotten a different job, do you think you would have gotten a different job? Yeah. Stayed there. So when I left my job, I was at Airbnb for seven years. I was, I had like plan A, start a company. Again, plan B, join a startup as like their first PM. Plan C, join a big company as a PM. Plan D, advise companies, become a consultant kind of person. Nowhere in that plan was like, do this crazy thing that I do now. I had a lot of startup ideas as I was exploring the startup ideas. As you remember, I was just like tinkering and prototyping and building stuff. And then on the side, I was writing things that I learned and things I wanted to share. And you were just like, why are you writing? Why do you there's you can't make money on the Internet writing. You should be doing this thing that you're good at, startups and building and tech and stuff like that. And I'm just like, I don't know. It seems like there's a pull here, so I'm just going to keep doing this. I don't know if I said things that you're good at. I just said, I just said, like, as a person putting writing on the Internet, I don't make any money unless people buy my book. Yeah, plug. Yeah. So I guess to answer your question, I'd probably find another company to start and I probably would have failed, considering most startups fail. So I'd probably be in this like, oh, no, is this thing a thing I should be doing? I'd be on the struggle bus of startup life, probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined some company, I guess, as a PM. So then I guess going back to that question of what what do you think? Do you think there's a moment or a collection of moments that led you to go full in on the newsletter or start the newsletter, start the Medium post that led to the newsletter? Yeah, it was definitely a collection of moments. It's kind of this like a little journey that I just followed pull that was starting to work. And I'm just like, huh, maybe there's something here. So a few moments along that journey. One was the first thing I wrote on the end. This is like the first thing I wrote on the Internet. Did very well is this post on what I learned at Airbnb, like Medium featured, it went all over the place. Francesca shared with the whole company, so proud of what I shared. So that was a nice moment of like, maybe I have something to share. And then I wrote a few more things on Medium at this point. And there is more of just like, this is working. People seem to like it. Then I had a conversation with this with a friend, Lee Jacobs, who's a VC now, because I was telling him, I don't know what I'm I don't know why I'm doing this. Why am I writing? This is like, not a future, I should be focusing on the startup. And he's just like, you seem to be enjoying it. People seem to be liking it, which is very rare, that Venn diagram of things just like, how often do you enjoy something and people value it. And maybe there's a way to make money and in the future. So his advice is just maybe pursue that and double down on that. And maybe it'll go somewhere. So that was a moment. Another maybe big moment was nine months of doing the newsletter. So I decided I'm going to move to Substack. I'm going to write every week. I tweeted, I'm going to experiment with the newsletter, weekly newsletter, see how it goes. Optimistically, there's also like gratitude stuff that I didn't find as useful, but there's just something about you can, everyone's got this baseline. That was actually a big learning from that course is everyone's just kind of this baseline level of happiness. And you could be like at a hundred, you could be at zero, probably more. Most people are in between somewhere and like something amazing happens. You go way up in happiness and then you come back to that baseline. Something terrible happens. You go back to that baseline. And the main thing you can do is work on improving that baseline so that you come back to a higher place. So that's what a lot of the work is and what you learned in that class. And one of the things, just be optimistic. Just kind of have a positive outlook and don't let your mind kind of spiral into these, like, it's gonna be terrible. So it was a lot of just like, think more positively. And I feel like my baseline of level of happiness has gone up. And I think that, yeah. I think you told me exercise too, like you used to run. Yes, that was a really good insight. So exercise, the science, this was like, I don't know, 15 years ago. I'm guessing there's new research, but the interesting thing there is exercise doesn't make you happier, but it brings you out of the negative. So you're negative one without exercise and exercise brings you to zero so that you're not depressed, basically. Speaking of stress. Okay, then I have a question for you. Oh, okay. Let's do this. Let's do this. Because I know on your podcast, you have a lightning round. Okay. We're going to do a thunder round. Is that extra fast or what does that mean? No, it's sound. Your one thing that I think stresses you out the most at times is your misophonia, which is, you want to explain what it is? Yeah, it's like, it's funny to talk about it, but it's this, it's like this disorder. It's like a real thing in the brain where I get bothered by certain sounds. And so I get very bothered by people eating with their mouth open. Okay, thunder round is going to be top five worst sounds. Or you can rank these sounds. Okay, you're going to give me the five? Like best sound to worst sound. Right. So like 10 is worst. Let's say the 10 is best sound. What are the best sounds? Okay, what's OK? Okay, let's say chewing. Chewing 1 to 10. Chewing like with the mouth open, just like. Chewing with the worst. Yeah. I hate it. 10 is the worst. 10 is the worst. Yeah, it's, you know. It's probably, it's in, yeah, it's 10, 9 or 10. Or like, like nails on a chalkboard. What's that? That's like less bad for me. Right. What's the number? Like if it's someone sitting right next to me, just like chomping away. Yeah. And it's so awkward to ask anyone to stop. I hate doing that. It's like so rude. They're like, shut up. But it's just like, what? Yeah. I'm just sitting here eating. Leave me alone. Yeah. That's how I feel whenever I do it by accident near you. Yeah. OK, so nails on a chalkboard. What's? It's like six. I don't know, five. What about like a baby crying or your what's a baby crying versus your baby crying? Baby crying. Like, so 10 is the worst. Yeah. So like how loud, like very loud baby crying. Like in a newborn phase, like, like didn't know what to do. Like. Oh yeah. That was really like when, when Jude was born. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's pretty hard. Thunder round. OK. Like eight. OK. What about like when Jude says Papa? Yeah. One. One is the best. Yeah. And is there any other sound you? Jude laughing. OK. OK. I love it. What about like another bad sound? I don't know. OK. You can, you can ask me now if you want. OK. If you're getting stressed. No, no, no. I like, there's not that many bad sounds. It's just like very specific bad sounds that I'm just like. Like basketball. You know, if there's just like, if I'm trying to calm, like be calm and there's like a bunch of commotion, like, OK, uh, like a gas, you know, blower. Oh yeah. When I'm trying to work. That's, I think, a notorious one for people. Yeah. What is that? It's like if it's super loud and right in my face, I would say, let's say a seven. OK. That's about it. You can ask your question now if you want, or I have more for you. I'm going to ask you a question. So, uh, so you make these incredible genius funny charts. There's one example on this book. So you have this first book here called Am I Overthinking This?, which a lot of people identify with, has sold many copies. Uh, so you're, you create all these charts that try to synthesize things in life, things people experience, things people feel. A lot of these charts get shared on socials by people that steal your charts and just pretend like they made this or just found it and they cut out your attribution. They make pillows and mugs, and there's like all these websites that sell all these charts you've made just like on swag that you get no credit for. I know it's bothered you a lot over the years. What makes your charts so shareable so widely? Why do they go so viral so often? By the way, I stopped looking at that because it doesn't help me anyway. That's good. I think that's for the best. Well, I think like. Like that's the good, you know. I think as, as your thing has gotten more successful, it's like, not as important to me. I do think it's interesting that they are often like detached from me, which is, I don't know why, but, um, yeah, people want to get credit. When they do. And it's, I think I can figure out some of them. It's clear when I make it, whether it's like I make it and then I let it sit. And then some other, some like moment happens or I'm like, oh no, this is what it needs. And then I'm like, now it's, now I can feel that it's really good. And usually it's like, it's something that makes me laugh or cackle, even though I made it. It's like, like, it's like, Oh, I've already seen this in my own brain and it's still funny to me or makes me kind of like tear up. Then I feel like, OK, I think people are going to like this. I am often wrong. And sometimes too, like there are things, there's something from that book that I didn't share at all, but someone took a photo of it. That's how it went viral is like just a photo of a page of a book that people loved. Like it wasn't even like a digital high quality picture. It's just like some random photo. Yeah. Which is interesting as well. But, and also people's attention spans. Sometimes they're just, what I, what I like to make is things that are really simple, um, and quick and show you something you haven't thought of before. And I think that if it's really easy to digest, people's attention spans are short these days. And if it makes them feel something is another thing. And it's also nice to make something that's, that isn't a lot of like physical labor because some things you can make and it can take you forever to draw out because my brain does work in this like overthinking kind of way of like this, but then, oh this, then this. People like it when it's really simple. Yeah. I love your point about like, the way you know a chart is done is intrinsically you feeling like, this is hilarious. This is makes you laugh, makes you feel something. And it's similar to the way I think about my newsletter posts and yeah, more, more the newsletter than the podcast is it just, to me, it feels like this is like really interesting and really good. It's very like not waiting for other people to give you, you know, approval or feedback. It's like, I feel this is good. And I think that's really interesting that that's similar to the way I approach my stuff. I find that when you work on your charts, uh, you're like, you think so many levels deep and they're like, they're like, so they're like too clever sometimes. And I feel like because to your point, people have a short attention span. Sometimes they're like too clever and I have to like, OK, this is too many layers. You have to understand. I have to like, that's a little much. You have to like simplify it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. You're my editor sometimes. I try, but you're like, no, you're like, I don't care. I don't, I don't care about your feedback. You're usually probably right. Yeah. OK, let me ask you one more question and then we could switch it around again. How do you come up with your ideas for your charts? You have so many. Such variety. You had an adult book. You had a children's, now you have a children's book. Uh, you're working on like charts for parents. You have all this other stuff going on. Where do your ideas come from, Michelle? The ideas come from just living life and noticing, noticing a lot of things and then also kind of, um, observing a lot. I, I know that I've been really prolific when I've been meditating and in meditation, you learn to kind You know, it's completely unexpected, personally, and I don't think anyone saw it coming. I had never written anything online before I started writing. I was always not like, Hey, look at me, I've got all the answers and I have all this wisdom to share. I was always like, I'm an introvert. I'd like to kind of stay behind the scenes. So it's a very unexpected path for me. And part of the reason I think I was able to do it is the newsletter started during COVID, so I could just sit there and type and put stuff out online. I didn't have to go anywhere and like, hello, everyone. I could stay like in my little hole. But just to follow through on these things you pointed out that I did earlier, because I don't think I've ever talked about these things. So I had all these different side projects before, like through college, I guess. Yeah, through college. I was like a very big atheist and I'm still an atheist, Jewish atheist, which is many Jews. But I was like very into it before and now I'm like, okay, I don't care, whatever. Believe it or don't believe. So I used to run a website called the AtheistSpot.com, which was Reddit for atheist news, which is not a, you know, Reddit is that. It's fine. I don't, you don't need it. But I went to like, there's like conventions that we went to, atheist conventions. So I did that. And the funny thing is that was the, during AdWords, when Google AdWords was a way to monetize your site. And so all the ads on the site, because most of the articles were about religion, were all these religious dating sites. So it's like Christian Mingle and like all these funny dating sites that didn't make sense for the audience. So I always thought that was funny. And then I worked with a friend on this other project called Utorials, which was so ahead of its time. The idea was Utorials, tutorials for you by you. Nice. And so it was people contributing things they've learned and writing a how-to, like how to make eggs, how to take a quick shower. And it was all these. That's like TikTok, right? It's like TikTok. It was before Wikipedia, I think. Yeah, it's like YouTube. It's like, yeah. That's like what I watch TikTok for, is like watching people make. Yeah, and parenting advice and things to be afraid of. Yeah, and dance videos. That's what your thing was or that's what TikTok is. That's what TikTok is, right? Yeah. So yeah, I was really proud of that. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds good. It sounds like it was ahead of its time. And LocalMind was ahead of its time. And LocalMind, so that was my startup. We sold to Airbnb. That's how I got there. LocalMind, amazing idea and not something anyone needs, really. I still need it. Like you need it once in a while. So just to briefly explain what that is. It was an app that sat on top of Foursquare and Gowalla when that was very cool. And it allowed you to ask questions of people checked in anywhere in the world. So if you're like, is there a long line at the mill, which is near here? Should I go? Is there a long line? What's like the special? We just used that basically. Yeah, we used to, Google does it with their like, is a busy? Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, all these other ways that you could solve this problem. It was very cool. It was amazing. Nobody needs it, really. If there are still things you want to ask people. You need it like once in a while. You need it like once a quarter. Yeah. And it's holy shit, that's so good. But, you know, you can't make a business out of that. So I'm glad that we we exited. Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. To thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly, but many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like which tools are working? How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox, Booking.com, Adyen and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity. To learn more, visit DX's website at getdx.com slash Lenny. That's getdx.com slash Lenny. Okay, so you're mentioning the AtheistSpot with a bunch of religious dating sites. Reminded me that you were my first online date ever on a platform called HowAboutWe. And I remember that, I mean, you had had other dates. Where is this going? Anyway, no, but I remember you were like, had, see, I think you had a thing for designers. Yeah. And I wonder if you regret that preference. Like designer artists sort of, like. No, not at all. Stereotype. No, no. Like I'm not, like you're pretty neat. Yeah, yeah, it's true. You're kind of chaotic. Yeah. Which is, we can talk about your process, but it's like, it's a messy process. It's true. You know, we have a good yin and yang. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just like. Like you're unstressed, unbothered. I'm bothered. Yeah. I'm stressed out. Just things everywhere. Yeah. We got cleaners. They help things out. Yeah, it's true. You know. It's worth it. Okay, so you're okay with designers still. Good. And then As a wife. Yeah, right, right. Highly recommend. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Great. So yeah, I was going to ask, like, do you have any tips for, because it's like, it's, you know, there's, there's something you said recently, which is like, you don't have any co-workers. I was like, I'm your coworker. We work at home. But yeah, do you feel, do you ever feel like lonely? Because you were always really social. And then this goes into too, like, even before you were niche famous or whatever we want to call it. That's how I describe it. People were always coming up to you on the street, like, Hey, you know, from Airbnb. Because you're organizing things and do you feel like you miss office culture? I have people ask me that over the years and I've always like, no, it's amazing. I don't need that. Like I just do what my own thing and I don't need people around. But I've kind of started to feel that a little bit. I'm just like, huh, there's no one. Like I just sit at home all day and just like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Our dog likes to be right next to you. Yeah. Yeah. He's sweet. Yeah. So I do feel like I do miss it now. It's not like a huge problem, but it's just like, you know, it'd be cool to just jam with someone on stuff. And I have a team and I have you and Twitter. Well, you like to go to coffee shops. I like to go to coffee, yeah. What do you get? But it's like bowling alone kind of. I don't know. It's like, is that a good metaphor? And you have your headphones. You put your headphones on. I have my headphones on, yeah. And you're focused. So it's like. Yeah. So it would be fun. Like I have an awesome team and we jam on stuff, but it's not like, like I think there's a, I do miss having someone next to me that I'm just working with on the same thing. But I also am trying very hard to never have full-time employees. I'm trying to keep things really simple because it's so easy to build this thing into like this whole thing. And that's complicated that I'm like, what have I done? One of the challenges with this life is you can create a job for yourself that you hate by doing things that people want you to do or by following opportunities that feel big. And then you're like, I hate this. So I'm trying to be really careful about what I commit to and do. Coming back to your question, I do miss it some, yeah. It's like a new thing I've realized that I miss is being around other people, like working on the same thing. Yeah. So speaking of other people, like coming up to you and being around other people, it, I think it's become harder for you now that, now that people you don't know come up to you, because I think you actually have a little bit of face blindness. Absolutely. It's our people who do know you come up to you and you're like, and you're like waiting to know if, if they just listened to your podcast or if you Like, I know if I know that, like. Yeah. Yeah, this is a big problem for me. It's like a, it's like another brain disorder, I guess, where I just don't remember people's names. I'm so bad at it. So I just like, I know you. Who are you? It's like people texting you from a new number. I'm like, who is this? Yeah, sometimes I feel like the devil wears Prada, um, assistant where I'm like, that's Emily. You worked with her on Airbnb. Or that's what. Wait, you don't do that. You need to do that. I, I do it sometimes. You do that sometimes, okay. Yeah. So bad at that. Okay. So if you come up to me and you say hello and I don't recognize you, please, I'm sorry. I'm really bad at it. And yeah, it's like Scream into a pillow or something. Was that when you have too much coffee or is that like... That's when I have too much coffee. Okay, when you have too much coffee. But if there's a point, like, right before that. So single shot latte. Single shot is what I get. Single shot latte at least an hour. Sometimes it's good to have, like, somewhere I have to be to a time limit and then I'm kind of like, I feel like a machine, like, trying really hard to get somewhere. And then the other thing is just, like, a lot of it is writing something down as I'm out in the world, like writing and then putting it, trying to put it on paper in a way that visualizes it because I'm not strong at drawing. So and yeah, when I was a kid, my dad did a lot of math with me and a lot of like, you know, fractals and visualization and patterns, and so I sort of think that way, mathematically kind of. And yeah, so it helps me to visualize an idea that in the simplest way possible. Let me just say, this is very cool that we're doing this. This is like really fun. So sweet. Oh. Yeah, this is like really nice. Yeah. This is our Odessa moment. Yeah. You were born in Odessa, too. No. No, but one of my questions was like, I don't know, this would be like if I were in the audience, it would be more like a comment versus a question. Pretending to be a question. Yeah, we're both, our families are both from countries that, like, mine from Venezuela, yours from Ukraine, where people are always like, oh, just that, like, we didn't just arrive from Venezuela or Ukraine, so it's like not the same. So we have to, like, almost make them feel okay. Like, it's okay. I mean, my family still lives in Venezuela, but... Okay, so I asked you a question. Okay. That's back to you. Okay, great. Well, no, okay, let me reflect back what you said because this is really interesting. So a single shot, so it's like some kind of like neurostimulation, I don't know, single shot, just enough. I like this deadline piece. That was really interesting. It's like not too much time, not not, like not 30 minutes. Although that can be why I'm late often is I'm like, I just, I've almost got it. I just, you know, I'm a time optimist, as you know, that I'm like, oh, I think I have it. And then, but, but a good, good time is like two hours and then a two, I have to be somewhere in two hours. Interesting. Okay, so those are two elements. And then was there another for optimal creativity? Oh, a good night of sleep. Yeah. Yeah, because if you have like the bad night of sleep plus too much caffeine, then you don't have any, you know, you have no ideas. You just have the like frantic piece of the caffeine, the like mental energy. Anything else? This is really interesting. I think just the idea of what is, what creates creativity. Just like experiences. Experiences and thinking and almost like thinking too much about them. Thinking too, I like that. Maybe overthinking. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Back to you, Michelle Rial. Oh, back to me, to you. Yeah. Okay, so we did the thunder round. We did the worst things to hear. Okay. And the best sounds, which your sons laugh. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Do you... Okay, we probably know your favorite, like, product management books. Do you have a favorite children's book other than mine to read to... Charts for babies. And also like, and also maybe you could, you could do more than one because, you know, they like... Maybe there's one when he was a baby. Like I feel like a chart is... And you never take my ideas because I feel like you don't want to... I don't want it yet. You want it to be your ideas. Yeah. But I feel like there's books you love that are children's books and books your kid loves. Yeah. Right? And it's like, I hate reading this one, but he loves it. So we're going to do it. Yeah. So it's like, he decides what his favorite are. I love John Classen books. They're so like... Beautiful and just like sweet. So those have been really great. Are they sweet? They're like, actually not sweet. You're right. There's like death in all of them. Yeah. They all end in death. Yeah. Like, uh, Dude's Anything is like, he ate the bunny. This is the bear, the bear book. Yeah. Like he stole my hat. Yeah. Yeah. Like we start the book and he's like, he ate the bunny? Where's the bunny? Like in his belly. But is, yeah, is there any like overlap? You think there's a favorite that, that, that one is that's his favorite that you now love because that you didn't love initially? Yeah. Like Dr. Seuss, I think we similarly feel, it's like way too long is one because it's like 50 pages, 60 pages. Like, come on. Yeah. It's a lot of words and there's just like all these made up animals and And he's like, what's a zong? Yeah. Like there, that's a zong. Yeah, they're like, you're like trying to teach them real things in the world and then he's like, it was a tail of a zong. It's like, what? Vipper from VIP? Yeah. No. Yeah. I don't know. I don't like that. But we like, but we like reading them. We've kind of used, yeah, there's like a rhythm. Well, like anything in Spanish, I read to him, obviously. And yeah, I mean, anything you want to say about, like, I don't know, is there any sort of like product, anything you've learned in product management or like growth that has translated to parenting? You know, like product management is all about influence and that's basically parenting. That's why he likes you better. Why? Because I can influence? But you also have to make them do stuff, you know? Yeah. So like you have authority, you know, uh, all the responsibility without the authority, but you do have authority. So it's easier. They have the, then they feel like the colors have all the authority. That's true. That's true. Just like, nope, you sit there. Yeah. I feel like I see your product management in that, like, you make him, like, I should be the one making him a chart, but you make, you make him like the like, here's how if bedtime gets too long, you're like, here's how bedtime is going to go. We're going to read you three books. You get a start. And then also I'm answering for you. Sorry. Other things where it's like, things where it's where I'm kind of like, yeah, it just happens the way it's happened. You're like, no, I read a book on it. I read three books on it. And this is how we're going to do it. And, and that's, and it's going to work. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Right. Yeah. I'm not like an intuition guy. I'm just like, what have the smartest people figured out about this? This isn't the first time somebody has tried to shorten bedtime. Right. Shorten bedtime, sleep through the night. Right. Yeah. There's like, yeah, there's like smart people that have tried this stuff before. Yeah. And you can tell me what they've done. Small eye roll. And, okay, so I guess this is, I think, my last question for you. And I don't know if you want to answer it, but like I, as your wife of however many years, like 10, still, I don't think I know what product management is. Can you tell me in five words? That's hilarious. Okay. I will. My words are impact, collaboration, judgment, alignment, and this is a really good question. And it's almost like the order is like how you think about product management, you know? It's like the order you put them in. And what else? I'll just say some stuff because it's really interesting. Coordination. I think that's five. Organizing. Planning. Okay. Outcomes. I've just tuned out. There's so many here. Just like, shut up. So boring. And I'm just like, what should have I said? That's what I'm going to think about now. But it's, yeah, it's like a crazy weird job. All these different things. Yeah. I'm just like sniped. I want to keep thinking. Yeah. I'll give you my definition of product management. Yeah, you can't say mini CEO. No, no mini CEO. That's not cool. Although I actually do think his PM is a mini CEO. Like I think people keep saying you're not, but I think you are. Yeah. You can't say, like, not a project manager. Not a project manager. That's right. I think the way I describe it is your job as a product manager is to deliver business impact by prioritizing and solving the most impactful business problems. Something like that. That's many words. Yeah. You're like, this is why I never know what it is. It's so boring. What are you even talking about? Cool. Like this comes back to the mini CEO thing, just to close that thread. I feel like the PM on the team is basically, should be thinking the way the CEO thinks. You know, like their job is to think, what would the CEO do on this specific product or feature? Because the This was a lot of work. I did have a lot of iterations. The secret to success. Yeah. Iteration. Editing. Editing. Spending more time is what your old boss used to say. Spend more time on it. Spend more time, Vlad. Yeah. Anyway. Okay, all good? We done? Michelle, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I'll ask you my typical questions that I ask at the end. How can, where do people find you online? How can listeners be useful to you? My website, michellerial.com, R-I-A-L, or I'm also on Instagram, not too much these days, but still a little bit. You can look for the book, Charts for Babies. Great. Yeah. I don't know if... when this will be out, you can either pre-order it or order it. Great. One of the... yeah. Parentheses, pre, but order. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Michelle, thanks for being here. And I hope you like it. And thank you. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. I know you have a high bar. Absolutely. You hit it. Okay, great. And yeah, I hope you were okay with the interview. A+. It's gonna do numbers. All right, let's get out of here. Okay, bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenniespodcast.com. See you in the next episode.