How to nail your story in an interview with Jamie Tilotta Green

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That's pplx.ai/worklife to try Computer today. Most AI tools are still answering questions, while Perplexity Computer is completing full projects. So fit is an alignment of skills, culture, vibes, and motivation. Interview processes are largely not designed to give that to you. They're designed to give you headlines. They're designed to give you good news. They're not designed to give you, like, what the real challenge is. I encourage people to try to get to the work. They can use that language to say, I'm just trying to get, like, the real deal on the work, and to make sure it lines up and that I'm going to come in and crush this job. You really try to help people connect to what it is that they want at a very authentic level. That authenticity piece is at the center of, like, bringing us home to ourselves. And if you marry that with, like, hey, you have a great work ethic, you're really curious about all the change that's happening, your likelihood of getting that job or getting an offer just, like, went way up. A few months ago, I put a poll on my Substack. One question: What's a topic you want me to cover on work life? And the winner, by a landslide, was this: How do I actually find a job that fits me? I think most of us approach job searches backwards. We spend an enormous amount of time trying to figure out whether a company wants us. We study the job description, we prepare for the interview, and then we try to convince the company that we're exactly what they're looking for. But there are two sides to every hiring decision. There's what the company needs, and there's who you are and what you want, what you're exceptional at, what you actually want to spend your days doing, and what kind of environment allows you to be your best. Finding a job that fits means getting both sides right. So today, we're going to talk about how to find that fit and why knowing exactly who you are might actually make you more hireable. I'm Molly Graham, and this is WorkLife, where we untangle the messy human side of work. I'm going to introduce you to the person who has taught me virtually everything I know about hiring and finding a job that fits. Jamie Tolada Green is one of the most respected executive recruiters in Silicon Valley. For more than 20 years, she's helped some of the world's most influential tech companies find their senior leaders and advised hundreds of executives through the biggest career decisions of their lives, including me. She and her firm, the Cole Group, have worked with companies like OpenAI, Airbnb, DoorDash, Stripe, Figma, and many more, which means Jamie has had a front-row seat to thousands of career decisions, the jobs that turned out to be transformative, the ones that failed spectacularly, and all the complicated reasons why. Jamie Green, welcome to WorkLife. Thank you, Molly. I'm so happy to be here. Okay, so I, you know, every—there are sort of two sides to every search or every job search: the candidate side and the company side. And I do want to spend, like, most of today on the candidate side because I think that's relevant to most people. But I want to touch on the company side as well. But before we dive into either, I want to just talk high level about the word fit. I've done a lot of executive recruiting, much of it with you, and I swear I'm good at it. But I have also learned firsthand how hard it is to get fit right. Like, I've failed or thought I got it right and then it wasn't right. And I think it would surprise a lot of people how many executive placements fail. Why do you think that is? I think it comes down to what you're focusing on in a search. And I think there's a world where, again, what I call, like, the lazy search is you just use a bunch of buzzwords. You say, Oh, we're growing really quickly. Oh, we're moving up market. Oh, we're, you know, whatever it is that the company's going through, which is always like, We need to grow faster, by the way. It's like that's always at the core of whatever any company is trying to figure out. And then it's these very generic terms. Oh, I need someone who's done it before. And then it's actually most job specs are attributes versus skills. So what I mean by that, like skills are like, what is the work? What's the job to be done? Attributes are more like cultural, you know, they're qualifications around just—they describe how the person works, like first principles thinking, high intellect, high EQ, like, you know, great communicator, whatever this sort of laundry list. And I think what also happens is a lot of times when we talk about candidates, it all becomes about attributes. We lose the work. So one of the big things we focus on with the clients that we work with is, like, get to this what we call first principles search. What's the problem to be solved? Like, what's at the heart of the job? And then let's talk about that. Let's figure out what's hard about it, and then actually that becomes the lens that you talk to candidates. So instead of talking about everything in the company or just selling, which is what a lot of founders think you have to do is just sell, like actually a candidate or someone talking to you wants to know what it's really like. They want good data. They want to know what my job is going to be like, and what's at the heart of the job, and does that line up with what I'm great at and where I'm going to succeed? When I talk to people at the end of, like, when they've rolled off a job, their happiness or unhappiness always comes down to two things: people and impact. Those are the people I could be really successful with, and by the way, like, I did great work that mattered. Or when those things are missing, they're not happy. Like, that's when they're bitter and they're like, oh, you know, all these things outside of my control or backstabbing. So in order to get to that good data, you have to start with something very real and authentic about the job. And so that means you can't have this, like, generic list of activities or buzzwords. And this is something that sounds so basic and yet almost never happens. And so it's what we really work with our founders on, because when you can get to that, then you could set up interviews around the job that actually, like, go deep on the job versus, you know, sort of skimming the top. And then, you know, candidates can actually interact with it, and you just get closer to fit. You get better data. What does fit actually mean to you, and why is it so hard to get right? Yeah, so fit is an alignment of skills, culture, vibes, and motivation. Like literally, so whatever the, you know, job requires skills-wise, whatever the culture of the company, and specifically usually the CEO, and then motivation is something that doesn't get a lot of airtime, but that's like how excited is somebody? How much does this line up with where they are in their own personal progression and career story? And so if someone has done it before, there's always the question of like, well, best people want to do what's next. Why do they want to go back and do it again if they just did it? And this is something a lot of founders don't, they're just like, Oh, but I need someone who did it before. They're like, Well, motivation piece. So, but I do think fit boils down to getting good data on those sort of three, sort of three pieces. Yeah, beautifully said. And I think the— The thing you've really taught me, and I think we've worked on together many times over the years, is the two sides of that, right? The company being really clear and specific about what it wants, but also the person being really clear about what—I like your word, motivation, because that's actually how I describe the interviews that I do as a motivation interview—but, like, what is it that they really want next? Let's talk about the candidate side of this, because you, you know, one of the things I've noticed about you over the many years that we've worked together and been friends is that you, like, kind of end up being, like, a hiring therapist for people. I feel like there's two different pieces to what I've seen you do. One is that you really try to help people connect to what it is that they want at a very authentic level, and then you try to help them figure out how to tell their story effectively to others. But I want to start with just that, like, how do you authentically help people figure out what it is that they want? To your point beyond the, like, list of, like, company stats or whatever they've drawn up in their head. Like, can you think of a time when someone came to you convinced they knew what they wanted, and through talking to them, you realized or they realized that actually they wanted something completely different? Yeah, I mean, interestingly, like, just the other day, I was chatting with someone who I've known for a long time, and she had this, like, you know, had had a good experience and then took, like, left that and was looking for something, and then started to feel like, Oh my gosh, I'm being too picky, and I don't really know. And so she took a job with a, like, you know, native AI startup, like, cool company, got in, and within, like, a month realized it wasn't a fit because she'd used these, like, very kind of what I call artificial... Like it checked these boxes. To her credit, though, she had told them, like, let's actually spend a month and, like, make sure it's the right fit, which I highly recommend. You can't always do that, but, like, you know, again, interview processes, you tend to not get good data because everyone's on their best behavior and they're just trying to showcase the good stuff. And so she got in and actually realized, like, what she was really passionate about doing, like there was just no way it was going to happen. Like the company was based out of the U.S. They actually weren't going to invest in the U.S. market. Like they weren't ready to move to enterprise. Like these things that during the interview process, like, Oh no, no, the product's ready. Oh no, we're ready to do this. And it turned out it wasn't the case. But then what happened is she was so upset it didn't work out. She's like, This other company that actually is, like, really low profile, and it's in an industry that, like, I'm not that excited about, but I feel like they're so nice, and I think I should take—like, it'd probably be so easy. And we took a minute to be like, Okay, let's come back to, like, what you do. Like, she is built for high growth. This is someone with, like, high energy who loves building teams. This is a company in low growth. Like, you know, I think that sometimes we flip the, like, you know, it's like, Ooh, the grass is greener over there. You know, our mind plays tricks on us of, like, Oh, if I just did that. Totally. And so when I was chatting with this woman, we got her back to, like, This is who you are. And you know what? Like, sometimes it's going to take a little longer. Sometimes you don't know what it's going to look like, but you've got to stay true to those things you know about yourself. Otherwise, you are just not going to be happy. Like, in that company, I was like, Who's going to come work with you there? Like, what kind of talent are you working alongside? She's like, Well, you know, they're not— Not that great, but like, you know, so it's like you really have to—it's hard to do this, by the way. It's very easy to convince ourselves. But when I, the second I said, Don't do it, she was like, Oh, you feel better? And she was like, Yeah. I was like, Because you knew. You knew it's not the right fit for you. Yeah. So, so, I mean, it's such a great example because, you know, I've obviously seen a lot of friends do the same, and I talk about the concept of like a rebound job, just like a rebound boyfriend or girlfriend, right, where you like almost like get out of one job just, you know, you get into one job just to get out of the other job, or you look for the opposite of what you had or something like that. But I'm like, how would you have saved her that first mistake? You know what I mean? Like, how, if I'm sitting in a job search and I genuinely don't know what I want next, which you've coached me through many times, like, how do I figure it out? Like, what are the questions you ask me? What do you encourage me to reflect on? So again, I encourage people to try to get to the work. I was just doing this with somebody on Friday, and what we realized through her story—she's a sales leader—they were trying to create a new product, and she was actually the one that like sat with customers and then went back and really translated, and has this like really unique ability to work with product to build a new product line that actually works. Like, so what she's not is like big Rolodex person. She's not like just a deal person. She has this like—she loves finding like new product lines, essentially, from a market perspective. Now she didn't know that. Now, she didn't know that when we started out, but she kept talking about the work, and I'd be like, Well, like, why was that? Like, why was that? And she's like, Oh, because we didn't have a product to do that. So I was like, Oh, so that's a new product you guys created. Oh, yeah. She hadn't even thought about the fact that she was this catalyst to this big change. So this is where sometimes it's hard to do this on your own. But again, when she started really talking about the work she loved, it came back to that. So now when she's interviewing, she has like a point of view on what she does better than all these other people they're talking to, and she has an actual example. She can speak to two different products that she helped shape. Like, she literally was like, you know, was the mouthpiece of the market to help them find a new revenue line, which is essentially a product. And this is why examples are really important, because if you just platitudes, you sound like everybody else. So you need to actually have a tangible example and story of like, I took something from this to this, and here's like why it mattered. Here's why it was hard. Here's like, you know, why it was an interesting story. But when you do that, when you interview that way, it is fundamentally different. You're connected to yourself, way more authentic, and it's super appealing. You don't look desperate. You're not trying to just please the person on the other side, and they get to see who you are. So I just encourage everybody to like try to sort of step back. It's like the zoom out, and try to figure out what were the times I did my best work, and can I create a story around that that's like real? So I'm always trying to push people to like keep thinking that way versus thinking lists. But this is a different way to do it. So I recognize it might sound Hard, but actually it's like, it is like therapy, by the way. It's just like, talk about what you did and actually ask yourself, like, what am I most proud of? Like, what's on my highlight reel? Where was I happiest? Like, and like create a story around that. And from there, you have a way to show up in an interview that is different. I will say, like every single person I've done this with, oh my God, interviewing suddenly became fun. Because I'm not catering just to the other, to the company. I'm showing up with something to say, and it's like grounded in authenticity, which is the goal, right? That's the goal, is we're trying to get to like authenticity of who you are and you represent that. Why do you think authenticity is so important? I mean, it's super important everywhere. It's why you see, like, you know, the new media craze, and I think everyone's craving an actual point of view as opposed to packaged. I mean, Gen Z, like they're the poster children for like, you know, don't give us a bunch of BS packaged stuff. So I think it's important culturally, but I think it's also really important personally. Like, you know, that's the biggest thing I've learned is like, I just got to show up as me, because my goal in life is just me and the best me I can be. And if everybody did that, the world would be a really great place, you know? And so, again, it's hard when you're, it's like, I just need a job. Like, that's a hard place to be because you're like, oh, I, you know, can't be picky. But you'd be surprised, like, you can change the lens just a little bit, and you feel way more empowered as opposed to I'm just kind of spray and pray trying to be, you know, everything to everybody. It's impossible. And so that authenticity piece is at the center. Of, like, bringing us home to ourselves and really being able. And again, that is so attractive. You know it, because you know people that are like that, and you're like, Yes, please. And if you marry that with, like, hey, you have a great work ethic, you're really curious about all the change that's happening, your likelihood of getting that job or getting an offer just, like, went way up. This episode is sponsored by Framer. Growth isn't a straight line. 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You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. You actually told a story a little bit earlier about someone who kind of had a natural ability, like you said, she was made for high growth. How do you sort of identify someone's key strengths innately, and like where does that lead you? Like when you push on their highlight reel and their stories, I'm thinking about like someone trying to do this work, and I think you said it's really helpful to do it with someone else, but like how do you really sort of pull out the patterns and think about like what is it that makes me special? Like in some ways, it's the most simple thing. So I think, you know, if you're trying to do this, you know, on your own, it's like sit down, like don't write a resume because zero people want to write a resume. That's like the worst, and we all have like the worst mental, you know, worst relationship to resumes. But really write about some work you've done. And if you're young, that could be projects. It doesn't matter how big. But, like, you just got to put out, and again, the framework is, like, what was the context? Like, why was that? I mean, I think I shared with you DoorDash was, like, the number seven player, six player, like, brand new category. So people did not do delivery. They, you know, Chinese food and pizza were the only things you could get delivered at that time. So new consumer behavior, yet a bunch of competitors: Uber, Grubhub, Seamless, like all these companies. So that's, like, first of all, a huge challenge. They weren't the leader and also, like, a really hard business to run. Like unit economics are tough. So by all standards, like, they shouldn't have gone there. Like, it looks like a hard place to be, but they got there. And what they did is they realized, like, right away, so all these other companies, Uber and others, were all going urban, and they actually said, Let's look at suburbs. Oh, families actually could use DoorDash more, but bigger basket sizes. So they made the controversial decision to go to the suburbs, which was, like, nobody thought that was smart at the time. And then because of that, and this is very marketing-driven, this is where it goes to their story, they said, Well, like, what do those families need? Well, guess what? We need to actually get different kinds of restaurants on the platform, like fast food, which was also taboo with all these other companies. And so, again, another controversial move, but they felt like it was aligned with the brand, which was to be inclusive and for everybody, and that it was, like, what they needed. And by the way, that meant they lowered their marketing budget to give more money to sales to go sign, like, McDonald's, which is, like, you know, a different move. Like DoorDash leapfrogged everybody. And so I use that as an example of, like, it's an interesting story because you're like, Ooh, the villain was, like, the market, all the competitors, the new consumer behavior. The insight was like, Ooh, we're going to go focus on families instead of this. And then the result, which is the happy ending to a story, is it worked. And so I encourage, I use that example because we can all find, you know, DoorDash is obviously a company we all know, but we all have those examples in us of like, okay, that's why it was hard. Ooh, that's the strategy we, you know, that was the insight, and then this is the result. We did move up market. We did grow more, whatever it is. And so, but people don't think in that way. They sort of just list things. And I keep saying this, but like, you got to tell a story that's interesting and fun that you can be passionate about. If you show up to an interview passionate, like that's what everybody wants. Yeah, and I think it's such a powerful story because it's both a really specific and clear story about what it is, the kind of work that they love doing, you know. But it's also a really powerful story if you're trying to tell someone what you're great at, which is kind of where I want to go next, is like, I'm, I, you know, once you have figured out like, hey, this is what brings me energy and this is the kind of work that I love to do, you have this phrase which is like, senior people start reading the news of their careers. What do you mean by reading the news? You've mentioned it a couple times, but just explain that phrase to people. It's similar. It's like the list. It's like just listing, I did, you know, I took this company, this company grew this much. We repositioned them. We moved up market. We moved down market. I hired a bunch of people. Like it's just, it lacks any detail. It's headlines with no substance. So it doesn't mean anything. Like the number of people who say to me like, I'm such a great leader. I'm so passionate about people. And then there's like no follow-up. It's like, okay, so I'm just supposed to believe you when literally everybody says that? So this is what founders deal with or hiring managers. They're like, oh, I'm getting the same answer from everybody. So how do you, how do I distinguish between who's actually a good leader and who's not? Well, guess what? You need a good story about leadership. Like, tell me something that's really interesting. Like, oh my gosh, the company was, like, laying off half the company. Morale was in the toilet. Like, and, you know, we came—I came up with, like, we came up, and it can be a we, but, like, came up with this program. We, you know, implemented whatever, and actually, like, then NPS went to this. I have four of my direct reports that are now running, you know, something somewhere. Like, give something some substance. We miss substance, and I think people are worried about, like, being too long-winded, but it's not long-winded. You can tell a good story in 30 seconds, right? But you just have to have the, like, why it matters. So, but that's what reading the news—reading the news is just like you're given headlines with nothing behind it. And so I always ask people, like, why does that matter? Like, why did that story—why did you share that with me? Yeah. I'm curious, like, sometimes I think when you're interviewing, like, you do all this work with people to help them really authentically figure out who they are and what they're great at. And then you get into an interview, and I think it can be very tempting to kind of, like, try to contort yourself into what you think the person on the other side wants. Like, how do you encourage people or help them stay grounded in being clear about who they are, particularly if the other side might not be a match? Like, if it's, you know, like, how do you not turn into a pretzel in an interview, you know? Yeah. Well, again, it's actually like all this that we've been talking about. If you're going in knowing authentically who you are, then if it's not a fit, it's not a fit, first of all. Like, and that's great. You just avoided being in the wrong place, which, by the way, like, is just a detour, right? And some of them are required because we have to, like, get—you know, we have to scratch our knees up a bit, but to, like, because that's life. It's being a human. But, like, I think that being clear, the work that you love to do and who you are and what you're motivated by, you need to have that before an interview. Now, what you can do in an interview, though, is, like, prep by way of, like, have you learned about the company? Like, how, you know, do you have good questions? Are you listening? Like, also, this is like a little tip. If the, you know, person on the other side of the interview is talking 80% of the time and you're talking 20% of the time, they're going to be like, Oh, she was so smart. Like, that's the oldest trick in the book. Like, shut up. Like, just don't say that much. And when you say something, if it's coming from a place, it's like a good question about their business, like you're showing interest in their business. And then when you are sharing something about yourself, it's really concise and it's accurate. And it's like, that's—those are the best interviews, right? Because you're being authentic and also you're playing the game. So, like, it increases the likelihood that they're going to want to talk to you more. But you shouldn't turn yourself into a pretzel. If you're turning yourself into a pretzel, you didn't do your work ahead of time about who you are. You didn't do prep on the company, which people need to do. But don't force fit, even when you get a job, because it's not going to work out. You know, you're going to be back on the market in six months. And right now the trend is like fire fast. So you don't want to be in something and then blow up, get fired in six months. You're going to feel even worse. Yeah. Okay. So now let's say I've done the work and I know what it is that I want to do and the work that I love. But I think, you know, one of the hardest things is whether what you want and what you're great at and what they want actually line up. So, like, how do you encourage people to really figure that out? What I do in— What I do, and what I do, I'll often ask, you know, tell people to do or coach them on is ask more questions. Like, you're trying to get to truth. You're trying to get to good data. So again, interview processes are largely not designed to give that to you. They're designed to give you headlines. They're designed to give you good news. They're not designed to give you, like, what the real challenge is or what it's really like to work there. And so first of all, I always instruct people, like, ask things like, how do decisions get made? Like, what are the things the CEO cares about? Guess what? CEO does not like sales. You should probably know that going in. Like, CEO thinks marketing is dumb. Figure that out ahead of time. And that's like— All of these are basically real examples, right, Jamie? No, this happens all the time. But, like, really cares about, you know, actually, yeah. So figuring out the CEO—CEO sets the tone for everything. So, like, spend time to understand, like, what kind of culture and, like, just where the fiefdoms exist, and then try to get to the work and ask in different ways. Can we do a workshop? Can I spend a day there? Can I, like, you know, spend time with the people I'd actually be working with day in and day out? Like, who cares the most about this? Do references on people. Look at Glassdoor reviews. Just try to, like, get data that's real. Yeah, totally. So let's break this apart. So you said something which I really agree with, which is, like, companies are the expression of their CEO. You know, if you're not interviewing with the CEO, what you're really asking about is the culture of the place. And culture is such a funny word, right? So it's like, what is it actually like to work here? How do decisions get made? How does conflict get resolved? But what are some examples of softer questions that you push people to ask that kind of get underneath any shiny exterior? Like, one of my favorites is, like, what do you think is the most likely reason I would fail at this job? Oh, yeah. Postmortem. Yeah. What are some of yours? Yeah, I mean, honestly, though, postmortem is, like, the best question. You should always ask that. I'm so glad you said that. Like, just why would this not work? Like, where would it have gone wrong? I always, again, like the whole CEO questions around what they care about, I feel like is super impactful because it gives you like a blueprint of how the company actually works and like where power exists and where power doesn't exist. I like to ask, like, I mean, if you are interviewing with a CEO, tell me about the last people that have failed working for you. Like, tell me about the last people that haven't worked out, or tell me about the people that work best with you. Like, what do you think makes that true? But that usually gets a little bit of a shinier answer. Yeah, I like to ask or encourage people to ask, like, how they communicate. Is it a full Slack culture? Is it all like TLDR? Is it meetings? Is it like, what is it, and around what? Like the DoorDash, going back to the DoorDash example, Tony, the CEO, was so awesome about, he had a very clear, like, hey, anytime someone started, I'm just going to give you like this one-pager on like all the weird stuff about me. Like, and it was like, I will respond to texts in five seconds. Like, I will, you know, this is the stuff that is going to send me reeling. Like, so it was, he was very like aware of his impact. Most CEOs aren't. Yeah, and you have to uncover it. So you got to go find it. So I would, that, but that like, how do they communicate is a huge one as well, because you learn all these other things once you get into that about like what they like and don't like. But the culture stuff matters the most. Yeah, totally. In terms of fit, I think for sure, most likely reasons to not work out. So one of the other things you said that I like really love and wish we could redesign hiring to reflect this is like, how can you get to the feeling of working with someone before you actually take the job? And like, in my wildest dreams, everyone would, you know, work for a month or two months with a company before they got to take a job, because that's the fastest way to know, you know, on both sides. When you say that to people, I'm just trying to like make sure I know, like, this is a fit. Companies don't want to mishire either. This is what I tell my founders all the time. I'm like, no one wants to make the wrong hire. Candidates included, because it's just not going to work. So this whole concept of good data and just getting to the heart of the work, I think that anybody can use. They can use that language to say, I'm just trying to get, like, the real deal on the work, and to make sure it lines up, and that I'm going to come in and crush this job. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Ah, fall. That cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scarves. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or the Thanksgiving table has been set, there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close. Time to kick end of year into high gear. 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So, like, talk to me about why head of marketing wasn't enough for you in that search. Well, ever, but in that search. What happens for a lot of our founders are like, Oh, we had a board meeting, and now we have to hire a head of marketing or a head of sales or whatever it is, right? And we're always like, Why? So we do end up actually talking people out of hiring often, because if you don't have a pain, if you can't articulate it. And you can't say why marketing is going to help that. You shouldn't make a hire, especially an executive that's expensive, and those searches take a minute. So I think at the time, you know, you guys were really early product, like didn't have yet product-market fit. And so it's like, well, what's a marketer going to do? Like, is this the founder's job or is this a marketer's job? So for marketing specific, like I would say they are not going to come up with who you should be and why. They are here to evolve and package and amplify. They are not there to figure that out, though. If they could do that, they're a founder. So that line between what's the founder's responsibility and what's a marketer's responsibility is something we're actually doing, we're spending a lot of time on these days, because it's a good litmus test of like, if too much is in founder side, it's like, do not make a hire. You could even hire for more like hire a head of product, hire a product marketer or a demand gen person to just get, like, learn a little bit more. But do not hire, like especially when there's like no marketers there yet. Like, you know, making some big expensive hire just doesn't make. And I think at that time you guys were so early, that was the question, right? Yeah, no, you talked me into hiring our first marketer instead of a head of marketing, and then eventually I came back to you and we did our head of marketing search. But I think what you really taught me was the importance of, on the company side, being so clear, really specific about what it is that you need, you know, and that marketing is actually, you know, 10 or 20 different things. And so, like, what is it that you need for your business? But do me a favor and tell me, because I'm sure you have a million of these, like tell me about a search where on paper you found exactly the person the company said it wanted and it still didn't work. Yeah, I mean, look, I think there's like the reasons it doesn't work. And actually the reasons it doesn't work are the same reasons it works. First of all, it's like the commitment to the search. Like, and the commitment to the hire. So when I think about why searches haven't worked, it's because the board said do a search. They weren't totally bought in on the search. They didn't, like, really care about marketing or didn't really care about the hire and, like, how to make them successful. And so, like, that's the primary reason people don't work out. And so if you're a candidate, you're looking for that too. You're looking for, like, how important is this? And then the second piece is this, like, first principles search, we call it, which is just focus. Like, why? What are you trying to solve, and why do you need to make this hire? Like, I think of, like, our shared good friend GC, like OpenAI. Like, and this is now, you know, 18 months ago, so when I was working with him to help find a revenue leader. And that's an example of, like, okay, at the time, OpenAI is, like, the hottest company in the world, could talk to anybody. And what he did so thoughtfully is recognize that the issue wasn't Rolodex or sort of the traditional sales things people are looking for, but actually that he needed to be able to explain to customers, like, what the technology could do, because everyone's confused by it. We don't even know what, like, you can do anything. So, like, how do you talk about you can do anything? And so we ended up hiring somebody who was a former product leader turned marketer turned revenue leader. Totally different hire. At that time, it was actually the first one of those hires, which became, like, a more technical hire for sales. And now, 18 months later, it's part of every spec. Every AI company wants, like, a higher technical aptitude for all their sellers. So, like, he was so far ahead of the curve on that because we were so focused around what problem are you solving, not just hire a revenue leader, but, like, why? What's hard about it? Well, what was hard about it is nobody knew what this technology did. And you had to, like, really get into the guts of product and understand it in order to talk about it. And so I think that those two things are, like, the most important. It's like commitment, and then the second is, like, we are going to be laser focused on the core of what we are solving for in this job. And if you can get to that, then you can, you know, your chances of, like, good data and fit are, like, exponentially higher. Yeah. I mean, it's beautifully said, because in a lot of ways what you're saying a candidate can vet for, right? Which is, are they committed to setting me up for success? Like, do, are, you know, is this person making the space and sometimes the money or whatever to, like, really give me the highest possible chance of success? And then the second is, like, are they looking for me? Do you know what I mean? And on the company side, it's like, do I know genuinely what I want without using any words like marketing, which I think is funny, but, like, you know, you and I talk a lot about, like, words that don't mean anything. And, like, there are so many of them, but can you get down to a description that, like, is irrefutable in terms of the problem you are trying to solve, the problem, the number you're handing to this person or whatever, so that they know what you expect of them, right? What's going to be better or different if they're successful? And then also, like, how are you going to show up, right? Hires don't just show up and make themselves successful. Like, are you ready to make space for them? I feel like it's the perfect expression of the sandwich, you know, each side. Well, and sorry to interrupt, but if a company can articulate that, like, and then it turns into, like, that's the opportunity. I think what's interesting for companies is sometimes they don't want to share that because they're worried they're, like, exposing the bad stuff, and they think an interview process is just saying the good stuff. But actually what you're saying is, like, this is the opportunity for you to come in and have a huge impact. Come help us figure this out. Which is so motivating and what everyone's ultimately looking for. So there's, like, you know, it's actually a sign of strength to be clear with what's needed. I love it. Okay, last question for you. You've been doing executive search for more than 20 years, and you have seen, you and I have talked about, like, lots of boom and bust cycles, you know, through 2008 and through the mobile reinvention and everything in tech. Like, we're obviously in a very strange moment, which you just talked about. But, like, through all of these ups and downs, what do you think has never changed about hiring? From my perspective, it doesn't change that much. Like, I think just if you're a candidate, for example, or a person looking, like, again, try to find great people. Like, try to just find work that is aligned with what you're personally passionate about, and that's, like, a separate conversation. Like, I think this authenticity of, like, your story is super important. Knowing who you are, which is hard to do when you're younger, but actually, like, it's in there. It's like either you're naturally drawn to something and you're excited to work on it and it gives you energy, or it's exhausting. And it's, you know, and so there's elements of, like, you just need to try to stay aligned with who you are. And if you do that, you can navigate all of—there's no, again, there's no silver bullet. There's no piece of advice I could give to anybody that's like, now you're recession-proof. Like, you're on your own journey, and the goal is to really try to trust your gut. I tell people that all the time, the most basic, you know, longest-standing advice ever. But, like, if you get weird vibes about something. Get weird vibes about something, don't do it. It is like, you know, we argue with our gut all the time. Our gut's right. Like, you know, your mind can tell you anything, your subconscious and, you know, your soul, like, know what's real and, like, pick up on all the things that your mind is, like, you know, telling you not to notice. Jamie, thank you for doing this. I've loved, I've learned so much from you over my career, and I'm so happy we got to do this. This has been amazing. Thank you so much for having me. Okay, I'm so glad you got to meet Jamie. She's one of my favorite people to talk to about this stuff, and I loved her point that fit is a combination of skills, culture, and motivation. I think the biggest thing that I took away from that conversation is what a big competitive advantage authenticity is. Knowing who you are, knowing what you're great at, also knowing what someone should never hire you to do. I talk about this a lot to leaders that I work with because I've really seen it in my own experience. I've had that feeling when I was sitting in a job interview or talking to a CEO about a job, particularly like a job that I really wanted. It was cool and it was sexy, and I just had that, like, sinking feeling. You know, they were describing what they wanted, and I had that feeling like, Uh-oh, I don't think this is me. And by the way, the mistakes that I've made are when I've ignored that feeling, right? As Jamie said, if the vibes are off, pay attention. And I think that is the power of knowing who you are and knowing what you're great at, is that you can pay attention to those feelings where it's like, Uh-oh, I think they're really not looking for me. I just want to name, too, that, like, all of this is a lot harder when you're desperate. And desperate can look a bunch of different ways. There's a lot of people out there right now that are just desperate to find any job. They, you know, there's that feeling of just like, I would take anything that anybody offered because I need money to feed my family. But there's another kind of desperation, too, that's just like, This job is so cool, I want it to want me. So desperation can have a lot of dimensions. So what do you do if you're desperate? Can you really still afford to ask about fit? And I thought that Jamie's point on this was pretty powerful, which is that fit matters so much to finding a job that will last. You know, anybody that's made a mistake here knows it, right? You take the job because it sounded so cool, and then you're like, Uh-oh, I hate this job. Or you take a job out of desperation, and it's just not a fit, and you end up getting laid off again. Fit is so important to finding something that's going to endure. A relationship that you want to be in for a long time is going to have two sides. It's going to be that the company is really looking for you and that you can authentically be your best self. I just, the other thing about fit that Jamie really emphasized is that companies can tell. They can tell when you're selling or contorting yourself to be what they want. And her other point is that authenticity fundamentally makes you a better hire, and it's obviously better for you. Okay, I hope you enjoyed this. I hope it answered some of the questions that you all had when you put it on my Substack, and I look forward to talking to you all next week. Work Life is a production of TED and Pushkin Industries. This episode was produced by Isaac Carter and Leah Rose. Banban Cheng is our story editor. Mixing by Hansdale She. TED's executive producer is Daniela Ballarezo. Constanza Gallardo is the executive producer for Pushkin. Special thanks to Roxanne Highlash, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lott, Tansika Sungmanivong, and Ashley Murphy. If you like the show and want more, come join the discussion on my Substack, Lessons. I'm Molly Graham. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Founders Mentality, a podcast in partnership with Bain & Company. If you listen to WorkLife for conversations about leadership, navigating change, and unlocking innovation, I have another show for your rotation. It's called Founders Mentality: The CEO Sessions. It gets into the real decisions behind some of today's leading executives and companies, not just what a CEO should do, but who a CEO has to become to do it. In their recent episode with Lara Borow, Group CEO of The Economist Group, you hear how she walked into a divided organization and a transformation project that had already cost the company millions and made the call to scrap it. Instead, she pushed for a new approach, one that could fund itself and bring the business back together. 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